What on Earth is going on in the world today? It's gone mad

calitennis127

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A "nursing home virus?" A "scam?"

Yes, it has been ridiculously exaggerated from Day 1. And Yoram Lass, the former director of Israel's health ministry, agrees with that assessment. You won't see the New York Times being philo-semitic toward him though:

‘Nothing can justify this destruction of people’s lives’
Yoram Lass, former director of Israel’s Health Ministry, on the hysteria around Covid-19.


You are so invested in making little of this, even as people keep dying. I hope you can live with yourself.

You are so invested in making little of the shutdown consequences, which are far worse and far more threatening to most people's lives (not just livelihoods) than the Wuhan Nursing Home virus.

If you want to play the empathy card, do these people here count for anything?

THE COST OF QUARANTINE: ‘We’ve Seen A Year’s Worth Of Suicide Attempts In The Last Four Weeks,’ California Doc Says

 
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Moxie

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Yes, it has been ridiculously exaggerated from Day 1. And Yoram Lass, the former director of Israel's health ministry, agrees with that assessment. You won't see the New York Times being philo-semitic toward him though:

‘Nothing can justify this destruction of people’s lives’
Yoram Lass, former director of Israel’s Health Ministry, on the hysteria around Covid-19.




You are so invested in making little of the shutdown consequences, which are far worse and far more threatening to most people's lives (not just livelihoods) than the Wuhan Nursing Home virus.

If you want to play the empathy card, do these people here count for anything?

THE COST OF QUARANTINE: ‘We’ve Seen A Year’s Worth Of Suicide Attempts In The Last Four Weeks,’ California Doc Says

Look, I have asked you before and I will thank you kindly to stop accusing me of taking the other consequences of lockdown and the virus "lightly." I am not and I have said as much. Unlike you, who has a very black-and-white approach to this, most of us are willing to see the complications and have all along been willing to weigh the pros and cons as this thing develops. I think we've all said that we don't believe in a one-size-fits-all approach to keeping the virus at bay.

As to the first article above, it's an interview with the ex-Minister of Health for Israel. It offers no science, no graphs to prove anything that he claims. Only his opinion that Lass claims that this is a mass-hysteria, spurred by social media, and that governments are afraid of their constituents and have just capitulated and locked down. Doesn't that seem a bit of a stretch? That most of the world would act against its own economic interests just because they are afraid of criticism? And even the headline can be taken two ways: "Nothing can justify this destruction of people's lives." Well, except for saving them from dying. I know you keep insisting that this is just basically a flu, but the numbers are piling up against that argument.

In your second cited article, there is this:

"The death toll from COVID-19 is approaching 100,000, according to Johns Hopkins. But the lockdowns could cause 77,000 deaths from suicides and drug overdoses, New York physician Dr. Nicole Saphier told DailyMailTV."

If I were as cynical as you, I might point out that a certain 100,000 deaths, over a potential or projected 77,000 is still a net benefit.

Here's the thing: you are certain that this COVID-19 is a scam, despite much evidence to the contrary. You are certain that this is a plot to take down Trump. You are certain that all of us don't care if HCQ could work, just because we don't want Trump to be right. Given how many questions are out there and yet to be answered, I'd say your very certainty puts you in the arrogant-to-tinfoil hat category. Closed-mindedness is not your friend. But that never seems to stop you.
 

britbox

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Yes it is. And frankly the right wing in the USA and all across the Western world gave in to this scam far too much. My original read on this was right.....not even an inch should have been given to the lockdown advocates. The only place where a lockdown may have made some sense is New York City, but even there it is doubtful that it helped anything given the data on how many people contracted the virus at home. This is, essentially, a nursing home virus and little more than that.

This whole thing has been a scam, and the lockdowns may have actually made the health problem worse. What they definitely did was create an utterly insane lockdown policy that is going to have very ugly long-term consequences.

If the likes of Moxie and Tinfoil Federbergy are worried about side effects, they should be looking at their lockdowns - not hydroxychloroquine.


It's not a scam Cali and it's origins had nothing to do with Trump. But the reaction has been over-hysterical, and sure there are politics involved. Not just in the US, but globally.

As for counting, the US is probably overcounting a little. Maybe the UK is too. I don't know about the US, but the UK always identifies infectious diseases on a death certificate. It's been the case long before Trump was in power. However, globally, there is probably a large undercount.
 
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calitennis127

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It's not a scam Cali and it's origins had nothing to do with Trump.

I disagree.....I truly wish the U.S. media had far less influence than it does, but as of right now it does have immense influence. After the pandemic got going in Italy, the New York Times and the media in the United States convinced the entire planet that Armageddon was about to happen. I think you are once again downplaying how powerful the American media is in shaping global opinion. They have so much power that they convinced most technology-engaged people across the planet that Donald Trump was a Russian asset for two years.

Yes, they have so much power on people's minds that they convinced people of that for over two years.

As for counting, the US is probably overcounting a little.

I disagree. I think the U.S. is overcounting by a lot, exaggerating the death total by as much as 300%. You should take a look at the John Lott article I posted as a new thread. In time I believe the truth will come out, but by then no one will care - just as they don't care now that the Russian collusion theory has been completely debunked.

Maybe the UK is too.

How about Italy? What happened there is what scared everyone across the world and the Italian leader Vittorio Sgarbi thinks the death count there is BS.

Italian Leader Slams 'False COVID-19 Numbers: 25K Did Not Die, it's a way to Impose a Dictatorship'




However, globally, there is probably a large undercount.

Again, I disagree. This virus has proven to be pretty weak except when attacking the weakest possible targets (the very old and the very ill).
 

Federberg

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lol! So according to Cali covid-19 is a hoax. 100,000 souls in your own country have died because of this. Your fearful leader now recognises the electoral peril he faces, so he doesn't try to comfort people, he doesn't try harder to fight the pandemic. Instead he's going to deny it's very existence, and he has loyal followers like you who want to deny reality. I just don't understand why you think this will be effective on this forum. Or are we a testing ground for GOP/Trump electoral tactics. I really start to wonder...
 
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Federberg

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what in the good Lord's name are the Chinese thinking? They're doing stuff in the South China see as well. And in Africa.... You have to be spectacularly incompetent as an American President not to be able to construct a global coalition to oppose them :facepalm:

 

britbox

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Without trying to go down a conspiracy theory rabbit hole too much, does anyone else think something bigger is at play here? A lot of this stuff hasn't felt particularly logical from the get-go. Something still doesn't really sit right, and it's been nagging at me from the beginning. @Murat Baslamisli also mentioned early doors "unless there is something they aren't telling us"...
 

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^ the problem with going down that rabbit hole is that we assign more intelligence and intentionality to events than are probably warranted. Governments just aren't this cunning when it comes to geopolitics. Personally I think that China is making a huge mistake. That's not to say Trump isn't a geopolitical disaster as well, but Xi is seriously over reaching and extending himself far too much.
 

Moxie

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How about Italy? What happened there is what scared everyone across the world and the Italian leader Vittorio Sgarbi thinks the death count there is BS.

Italian Leader Slams 'False COVID-19 Numbers: 25K Did Not Die, it's a way to Impose a Dictatorship'

So as not to be misleading on your part, let's be clear about Sgarbi, who you've quoted before. He's not the Italian leader. He's the Mayor of a small town north of Rome. He's a member of Forza Italia, Berlusconi's party (center-right, btw.) He's been shouting the same stuff as Trump, Bolsonaro, et al, since the beginning: it's a little flu, go ahead and go out, etc., but he's a fairly lone wolf on this. You can translate the below for verification.

 
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Moxie

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This is a very interesting article from The Economist this week. Sanguine, smart and cuts through the bullshit. It's behind a pay-wall, so I copy it here:

The next stage of covid-19
Lifting lockdowns: the when, why and how


They are blunt instruments that can cause immense harm. Time to be more discriminating


SINCE CHINA locked down the city of Wuhan on January 23rd, over a third of the world’s population has at one time or another been shut away at home. It is hard to think of any policy ever having been imposed so widely with such little preparation or debate. But then closing down society was not a thought-out response, so much as a desperate measure for a desperate time. It has slowed the pandemic, but at a terrible price. As they seek to put lockdowns behind them, governments are not thinking hard enough about the costs and benefits of what comes next.

Although social distancing may have to be sustained for months or years, lockdowns can only ever be temporary. That is because it is becoming clear how costly they are, especially in poor countries. Part of the price is economic. Goldman Sachs this week predicted that India’s GDP would fall in the second quarter at an annualised quarterly rate of 45%, and would rebound by 20% in the third quarter if lockdowns were lifted. Absa, a bank, reckons South Africa’s economy could shrink at an annualised rate of 23.5% in the second quarter.

The poorest are hit very hard, because they have nothing to fall back on. In sub-Saharan Africa an individual in the lowest income quintile has only a 4% chance of receiving social assistance from the government in normal times. The combination of covid-19 and lockdowns could drive up to 420m people into absolute poverty—defined as having to live on less than $1.90 a day. That would increase the total by two-thirds and set back progress against penury by a decade (see article).

The consequences will be far-reaching. Hunger permanently stunts children. Lockdowns that block normal services cost lives. The World Health Organisation has warned that covid-19 threatens vaccination programmes. If they stop in Africa, 140 children could die for each covid death averted. A three-month lockdown, followed by a ten-month interruption of tuberculosis treatment, could cause 1.4m deaths in 2020-25. It is the same for malaria and AIDS. The longer lockdowns continue, the likelier it is that they will cost more lives than they save.

The picture in rich countries is less dramatic, but still worrying. America’s unemployment rate increased from 3.5% in February to 14.7% in April. In Britain a third of new graduates had a job offer withdrawn or delayed. Bond markets in America are signalling a wave of defaults, especially in hospitality, raw materials, carmaking and utilities. The scarring in the labour market could last for years. Rich-world services are vulnerable, too. One study concluded that delaying cancer consultations in England by six months would offset 40% of the life-years gained from treating an equivalent number of covid-19 patients. Vaccination rates have fallen, risking outbreaks of diseases like measles.

Lifting lockdowns risks a second wave. Iran reopened in April to save the economy, but last week designated the capital, Tehran, and eight provinces as “red zones”, because the virus is spreading there again. Some American states, such as Georgia, that never suppressed the initial outbreak will soon find whether they lifted lockdowns too hastily. Some African countries are going ahead even though their case loads are rising.

To limit the risk requires an epidemiological approach that focuses on the places and people most likely to spread the disease. An example is care homes, which in Canada have seen 80% of all the country’s deaths even though they house only 1% of the population. In Sweden refugees turn out to be high-risk, perhaps because several generations may be packed into a household. So are security guards, who are often elderly and are exposed to many people in their work (see article).

For this approach to succeed at scale, you need data from tests to provide a fine-grained picture of how the disease spreads. Testing let Germany rapidly spot that it had a problem in its slaughterhouses, where the virus persists longer than expected on cold surfaces. Likewise, South Korea identified a super-spreader in Seoul’s gay bars. Without testing, a country is blind.

Armed with data, governments can continuously refine their policies. Some are universal. Masks were once thought ineffective, but in fact help stop the spread of the disease. Like handwashing, they are cheap and do not impose hidden costs. However, closing schools harms children and stops parents from working. In contrast with flu, it turns out, the benefits to health are not especially great. Schools should reopen, under conditions that lower the risk to teachers and vulnerable pupils.

As a rule, the balance of costs and benefits favours narrow local policies over blanket national ones. In Britain agency workers carry the virus between care homes: they should work at only one. Gibraltar has a Golden Hour, when open spaces are set aside for the over-70s to exercise while everyone else stays at home. Stockholm is moving vulnerable people into their own flats. Liberty University, run by Jerry Falwell, a supporter of President Donald Trump, was condemned for keeping its campus open. But thanks to social distancing, it has logged no cases of covid-19.

Poor countries will not be able to afford all these approaches. However, Vietnam and the Indian state of Kerala have shown that good primary-health systems can devise and disseminate sensible adaptations. Poor countries have more experience of infectious diseases than rich ones. Epidemiologists talk of “smart containment” that all can practise. Rwanda has put foot-operated handwashing stations in busy places such as bus depots. Slums need clean water for handwashing and to cut queues. Local leaders can spread health messages and designate areas where suspected cases can be isolated. Markets must remain open, but limit social contact. If people can earn some money, millions who would otherwise go hungry could feed themselves.

The emergency phase of the pandemic is drawing to a close. Too many governments failed to spot what was coming, but then did what they could. In the much longer second phase they will have no such excuse. They must identify groups at risk; devise and enact policies for them; explain these so that vulnerable people change their behaviour without becoming scapegoats; provide vital infrastructure; and be ready to adapt as new data come in. This will sort countries where the government works from those where it does not. The stakes could not be higher. ■
 
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calitennis127

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lol! So according to Cali covid-19 is a hoax.

The ridiculous exaggeration of it and level of fear-mongering, yes. It is richly ironic to see white left-wing people who accuse the right of ginning up fears in people doing this very thing with coronavirus - or with Russia in recent years. Talk about promoting phobias!

100,000 souls in your own country have died because of this.

I hope you're not dumb enough to actually accept that number. On multiple occasions I have posted about how the CDC is encouraging a ridiculous level of fraud in death count reporting. While hospitals are being bankrupted and the only way for them to get funding is by claiming COVID deaths, the CDC is telling doctors that they don't need a definite diagnosis of "COVID" as cause of death to report "COVID" as the actual cause of death. It's right there in their instructions.

Yet gain, let me point to these clear instructions from the CDC on how to falsify death certificates:

"In cases where a definite diagnosis of COVID–19 cannot be made, but it is suspected or likely (e.g., the circumstances are compelling within a reasonable degree of certainty), it is acceptable to report COVID–19 on a death certificate as "probable" or "presumed." In these instances, certifiers should use their best clinical judgement in determining if a COVID–19 infection was likely."

https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvss/vsrg/vsrg03-508.pdf

Your fearful leader now recognises the electoral peril he faces, so he doesn't try to comfort people, he doesn't try harder to fight the pandemic.

You know, you really are pathetic for never criticizing the Democratic governors whose states have the highest number of deaths and whose idiotic decisions have led to a high rate of death for old people. Instead, you blame Trump who has been extremely vigilant and also deferred to Fauci at every step (far too much in my opinion). Trump has been very proactive and has done what the so-called "experts" have advised (to his own peril).

Instead he's going to deny it's very existence, and he has loyal followers like you who want to deny reality.

Like the reality that Florida and Georgia saw significant declines in the number of cases after re-opening, when CNN addicts like yourself were saying that they were going to cause mass death by re-opening? Is that the reality you are referring to?
 
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calitennis127

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1590730333769.png



End New York City’s lockdown now!
By David Marcus
May 20, 2020

 

calitennis127

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Moxie

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This is hilarious.....now masks are BAD apparently. The WHO has reverted to its position in March. Will GameSetMath blame this on the science evolving?


WHO Now Says Only Wear a Mask If You are Sick or Working with Sick — Otherwise You Don’t Need One

I completely disagree with this. Wearing masks has kept the pandemic at bay in places like Southeast Asia. We have to wear them. But I'm not sure why it's "hilarious." I'd call it stupid.
 

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I completely disagree with this. Wearing masks has kept the pandemic at bay in places like Southeast Asia. We have to wear them. But I'm not sure why it's "hilarious." I'd call it stupid.
I might be wrong on this, but my sense is that they are concerned about the scarcity of masks for health practitioners. Which implies that they do acknowledge their efficacy.
 

britbox

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I completely disagree with this. Wearing masks has kept the pandemic at bay in places like Southeast Asia. We have to wear them. But I'm not sure why it's "hilarious." I'd call it stupid.

I think that depends upon what you think is keeping the pandemic at bay. Virtually nobody wears masks in Australia and New Zealand and we've got the lowest numbers of the lot. I think you can make a common-sense argument that in hotspots it might be worthwhile wearing a mask in a crowded indoor area... outdoors, wearing a mask seems more like virtue signaling based on the case study data... the biggest of which, showed only 1 of 318 outbreaks occurred outdoors.
 

calitennis127

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I completely disagree with this. Wearing masks has kept the pandemic at bay in places like Southeast Asia. We have to wear them. But I'm not sure why it's "hilarious." I'd call it stupid.


Oh, so now it's okay as an American to disagree with the WHO because the WHO said something that diverts from the Democratic Party line at the moment? I see. I thought criticizing the WHO was ipso facto xenophobic. I guess not.

As for the substance of your position, you are believing in a total fantasy - and the holy President Fauci just confirmed it. He just co-authored a piece in the New England Journal of Medicine (dated May 21, 2020) in which he and the authors state that the public mask-wearing is merely symbolic and doesn't do anything to prevent the spread of the disease, but may actually spread it.

'Masks Are Symbolic,' say Dr Fauci and The New England Journal of Medicine
MAY 28, 2020

 

calitennis127

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I might be wrong on this, but my sense is that they are concerned about the scarcity of masks for health practitioners. Which implies that they do acknowledge their efficacy.


Not Fauci (for now, at least).....he just co-authored this piece on May 21, 2020 in the New England Journal of Medicine:

"We know that wearing a mask outside health care facilities offers little, if any, protection from infection. Public health authorities define a significant exposure to Covid-19 as face-to-face contact within 6 feet with a patient with symptomatic Covid-19 that is sustained for at least a few minutes (and some say more than 10 minutes or even 30 minutes). The chance of catching Covid-19 from a passing interaction in a public space is therefore minimal. In many cases, the desire for widespread masking is a reflexive reaction to anxiety over the pandemic.

It is also clear that masks serve symbolic roles.
Masks are not only tools, they are also talismans that may help increase health care workers’ perceived sense of safety, well-being, and trust in their hospitals.

What is clear, however, is that universal masking alone is not a panacea. A mask will not protect providers caring for a patient with active Covid-19 if it’s not accompanied by meticulous hand hygiene, eye protection, gloves, and a gown. A mask alone will not prevent health care workers with early Covid-19 from contaminating their hands and spreading the virus to patients and colleagues. Focusing on universal masking alone may, paradoxically, lead to more transmission of Covid-19 if it diverts attention from implementing more fundamental infection-control measures."

All of you have been believing in a superstition. It's all bullshit.
 

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My congratulations to Elon Must and SpaceX. A thrilling event in these horrible times...
 

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I might be wrong on this, but my sense is that they are concerned about the scarcity of masks for health practitioners. Which implies that they do acknowledge their efficacy.
Maybe so. People in our area have been asked to wear facial coverings in enclosed public spaces except those with breathing difficulties or children under 2 or who need help putting them on but we've also been asked to make our own or use bandanas or scarves to save face masks for health & social care workers or emergency electricians, gas engineers or plumbers.