What on Earth is going on in the world today? It's gone mad

[britbox]

Less people have died in the Crimean "annexation" than Gerry Adams has personally killed. Food for thought!

 

[Kieran]

Less people have died in the Crimean "annexation" than Gerry Adams has personally killed. Food for thought!

Absolutely. How they have the neck to run for parliament and pass themselves off as patriots and honest citizens... :nono

 

[Kieran]

The biggest problem with the Ukraine has not been Putin - it's been the Ukrainian government... over the last 20 years. Point the blame where it belongs my friend. Absolute corruption and it includes pretty much everyone who has been charged with governing the country since day one.

The custodians of the Ukraine have let the people down and caused this mess. Pro-Russians, anti-Russians, Capitalists, Communists... ALL of them.

The torchpaper was lit upon political wranglings on who was going to bail them out.

None of which justifies Putin taking Crimea...

 

[britbox]

No blood spilled. 97% of the population voting for it. If I was Crimean I'd find your geopolitics pretty disturbing. If I was Crimean I'd certainly rather align with Russia than the ragbag encumbents in Kiev.

 

[shawnbm]

The biggest problem with the Ukraine has not been Putin - it's been the Ukrainian government... over the last 20 years. Point the blame where it belongs my friend. Absolute corruption and it includes pretty much everyone who has been charged with governing the country since day one.

The custodians of the Ukraine have let the people down and caused this mess. Pro-Russians, anti-Russians, Capitalists, Communists... ALL of them.

The torchpaper was lit upon political wranglings on who was going to bail them out.

None of which justifies Putin taking Crimea...

True, but what is done is done, brother. I still don't see NATO and Obama being justified in doing anything more than complain--and remain very watchful.

 

[Kieran]

The biggest problem with the Ukraine has not been Putin - it's been the Ukrainian government... over the last 20 years. Point the blame where it belongs my friend. Absolute corruption and it includes pretty much everyone who has been charged with governing the country since day one.

The custodians of the Ukraine have let the people down and caused this mess. Pro-Russians, anti-Russians, Capitalists, Communists... ALL of them.

The torchpaper was lit upon political wranglings on who was going to bail them out.

None of which justifies Putin taking Crimea...

True, but what is done is done, brother. I still don't see NATO and Obama being justified in doing anything more than complain--and remain very watchful.

You're right, Shawn, they'll do nothing, and in fairness, it's a good point to ask if it's their battle in the first place, although that would lead to obvious and uncomfortable questions about how they choose their battles...

 

[Kieran]

No blood spilled. 97% of the population voting for it. If I was Crimean I'd find your geopolitics pretty disturbing. If I was Crimean I'd certainly rather align with Russia than the ragbag encumbents in Kiev.

You're aware of the options they had, right? :laydownlaughing :lolz:

As for the Ukrainian governments, it's kind of like any nascent country that has suddenly found themselves handling their own finances, foreign policies, etc, after leaving an autocratic empire. This doesn't mean its citizens should jump ship. Or be forced to...

 

[TsarMatt]

No blood spilled. 97% of the population voting for it. If I was Crimean I'd find your geopolitics pretty disturbing. If I was Crimean I'd certainly rather align with Russia than the ragbag encumbents in Kiev.

The expeditious and almost overly-methodical approach to the referendum was a bit fishy, though, don't you think? I am not doubting its legitimacy, but sometimes you just don't know.

 

[Kieran]

Why aren't you doubting its legitimacy? It was contrary to their own constitution, and did you see the choices they had?

This was a vote at Putin's bequest, and according to his terms, and just like any democratic election Putin-style, the result was clear in advance... :nono

 

[TsarMatt]

Why aren't you doubting its legitimacy? It was contrary to their own constitution, and did you see the choices they had?

This was a vote at Putin's bequest, and according to his terms, and just like any democratic election Putin-style, the result was clear in advance... :nono

Well, part of me doubts its legitimacy (just as much as the 2012 elections) but there is a large ethnic Russian population in the Crimea, and, whether you like it or not, Putin is very popular with the Russians, so it wouldn't surprise me if it was legit. Maybe not 97% since that is such an unrealistically high number, but easily over 50 or 60%. But yeah, legitimacy is an underlying concern.

The cult of personality figure of Putin in Russia is very interesting. And I can understand exactly why they idealise him. As I said in another thread...

Funnily enough, he is still as popular as ever. I think a lot of this derives from Russia's history. They do not know how to govern themselves, and I am not being condescending here. For so long they lived under a despotic communist regime, and, before that, centuries of autocracy. Once the Federation was formed and the shock therapy was implemented, Russia went into complete disarray, and this was supposed to be a time of Western-orchestrated democracy; civil disobedience was alarmingly high, and their entire economy just plunged as a large portion of the nations' wealth was operated by oligarchs (many of whom were coincidentally Jewish, no less). People during the 90s in Russia wanted communism back because at least there were some degrees of stability embedded in their political and social frameworks. This is how bad it was getting. This period of 'democracy' was mismanaged and botched to extreme levels. Then along came Putin who promised prosperity, recovery, and stability only at the expense of centralising power back into the Kremlin. He's also very patriotic, and reinforces Russian traditionalist values as opposed to Western-forced ones. It worked, and the Russian people love him for that, despite Putin being in control since 1999 and probably up until 2030.

 

[Kieran]

The legitimacy isn't defined by how many Russians there are in the region: their own constitution has criteria for a referendum in Crimea and this wasn't followed.

I agree about what you said in that other post about Putin, but bear in mind that there were about 11 democracies in the whole world at the time of WW2, and places like Germany and Japan weren't well-schooled in the art of letting the people decide, but they changed. Now, I'm not saying that every country should become a democracy, or that even any countries are democratic, but the cult of a strong leader like Putin is not necessarily a positive sign. The Germans loved strong leaders too, but look where that led us. His style of leadership is an anachronism in the 21st century.

However, I would totally agree with Putin is acting according to traditional Russian values - values which include the freedom to roam abroad into their neighbours patch of ground...

 

[Kieran]

Just further on the notion that no country is a real democracy, this is an interesting article.

After sifting through nearly 1,800 US policies enacted in that period and comparing them to the expressed preferences of average Americans (50th percentile of income), affluent Americans (90th percentile) and large special interests groups, researchers concluded that the United States is dominated by its economic elite.

Now, I think that any definition of "democracy" is bound to be unsatisfactory. Even Athens, where the concept of democracy was spawned, was only democratic to an extent. Obviously, only certain citizens could vote, and the large majority were excluded. And funny enough, the idea of democracy happened because one powerful family saw it as a way of keeping control. So it was dead at birth, you could conclude, or else you could conclude that it's an idea that hasn't been fully explored.

I wonder if it's possible - and even practical - especially in large industrialised nations..

 

[Murat Baslamisli]

Many will argue US of A is not a democracy , it is a Constitutional Republic (they are not the same), and that the word "democracy " does not even exist in the Declaration of Independence.

 

[Kieran]

This is very troubling, more here.

It orders all Jews over the age of 16 to register at the government building, which has been occupied by pro-Russian insurgents in defiance of Kiev rule. Jews would also have to pay a registration fee of $50 before May 3 and list all real estate and vehicles owned.

The notice explained the measure as being due to the alleged support of Jewish leaders for the "nationalist junta of [Stepan] Bandera in Kiev" and their hostility "to the Orthodox Donetsk republic and its citizens."

Failure to register, the notice said, would result in people being "stripped of their citizenship and deported forcibly outside the country with confiscation of property."

 

[TsarMatt]

This is very troubling, more here.

It orders all Jews over the age of 16 to register at the government building, which has been occupied by pro-Russian insurgents in defiance of Kiev rule. Jews would also have to pay a registration fee of $50 before May 3 and list all real estate and vehicles owned.

The notice explained the measure as being due to the alleged support of Jewish leaders for the "nationalist junta of [Stepan] Bandera in Kiev" and their hostility "to the Orthodox Donetsk republic and its citizens."

Failure to register, the notice said, would result in people being "stripped of their citizenship and deported forcibly outside the country with confiscation of property."

I find this interesting since, historically speaking, western Ukraine have had the problems with anti-Semitism. But yeah, troubling, indeed.

 

[TsarMatt]

[video=youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lzn90P_4q4g[/video]

 

[JesuslookslikeBorg]

max Clifford has been jailed for 8years (sex case sex case, hang him hang him hang him).

the uk's premier and now former PR Guru is on the receiving end of media scrutiny. the final irony.

 

[britbox]

^ There will be a few big name celebs very very worried about Clifford spilling the beans... He's got a few years to pen some seriously damaging books!! Good riddance to bad rubbish though - I laughed out loud when I read he got 8 years.

 

[Kieran]

When I read something like this ("Stop calling teachers 'Miss' or 'Sir', pupils are told"), and then something like this ("Russell Brand and Dizzee Rascal in new English A-level"), I despair of the planet and wonder what the heck we think we're doing.

I know, everything has to be as dumb as the dumbest boy in the room, and some people are so touchy about titles, but really, it makes me wanna hurl (as they doubtless teach them to say in school, by now)... :nono

 

[britbox]

Ditto K. Dumbing down to the lowest common dominator. Used to be the preserve of the "left" and now the "right" follow suit to look "hip" and "modern".