US Politics Thread

Federberg

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It won't have been "public knowledge' because it wasn't reported by the mainstream media. Now the story has legs in the "join the dots, get Trump out of here" debate then it will be reported wholeheartedly...

you're not making much sense to me mate I confess. You can't seriously think that the company doing analysis of US voters for a Russian oil company makes sense or is kosher. Nor can you really be suggesting that it would have been public knowledge as it was actually happening.

But I guess it's also kosher to you that Trump calls Putin to congratulate him on a rigged election and says nothing about Russian assassinations on the territory of the US's closest ally. Personally I'm not surprised. It would be tough for Trump kneeling down in front of Putin with his face planted in his groin to make a righteous protest like that. Hard to do with your mouth full!
 

Federberg

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So... here we go. Trade tariff's against China. They'll retaliate. Can't decide whether cadet bonespurs is the incarnation of Nixon or Hoover
 

Federberg

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This is just nuts. Xi has to respond to this, he has no choice. He has represented himself as a strong man of the Middle Kingdom. The once and future dominant nation on the planet. He can't let himself be pushed around by a charlatan who's clearly playing to his base. I suspect he'll target sectors in swing states and hit Trump hard. And as we all know Trump will escalate, if he doesn't he'll lose his base. Nothing could be worse than being forced to back down. The only remotely positive thing about this is that at least he's targeting some items which are related to intellectual property which at least has some justification. It would have been better for him to have at least gone through the pretence of a negotiation. At least then he could claim to have made the effort, bypassing the WTO infrastructure right away just seems silly. It's going to be difficult to get support from other nations as this type of unilateral action could happen to them next
 

GameSetAndMath

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you're not making much sense to me mate I confess. You can't seriously think that the company doing analysis of US voters for a Russian oil company makes sense or is kosher. Nor can you really be suggesting that it would have been public knowledge as it was actually happening.

But I guess it's also kosher to you that Trump calls Putin to congratulate him on a rigged election and says nothing about Russian assassinations on the territory of the US's closest ally. Personally I'm not surprised. It would be tough for Trump kneeling down in front of Putin with his face planted in his groin to make a righteous protest like that. Hard to do with your mouth full!

Come on Putin called Trump and congratulated him on a rigged election. Isn't it proper etiquette to reciprocate?
 
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Federberg

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That Stormy Daniels interview was one giant nothing-burger. Clearly the whole scandal is being pushed to damage Trump. I think the only relevant one of the three is the Summer Zervos one.
 

Federberg

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Wow! Wow! Wow! 60 Russian diplomats expelled by the US. I'm assuming it's Trump himself who's authorised this. Well done DT. At last!

Please tell me it's DT and not McMaster doing a final fuck you before he goes...
 

Federberg

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And in a further update it turns out there are even more expulsions from NATO countries. Finally the West is growing a spine again.
 
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atttomole

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Wow! Wow! Wow! 60 Russian diplomats expelled by the US. I'm assuming it's Trump himself who's authorised this. Well done DT. At last!

Please tell me it's DT and not McMaster doing a final fuck you before he goes...
Trump may have reluctantly authorized it, as a matter of policy. His advisers have been pushing him to do so. Trump will not say much about it. Instead, you get statements being issued to the media, ostensibly on behalf of Donald Trump.
 
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Federberg

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Trump may have reluctantly authorized it, as a matter of policy. His advisers have been pushing him to do so. Trump will not say much about it. Instead, you get statements being issued to the media, ostensibly on behalf of Donald Trump.
I fear you're right. The fact that most other NATO allies did it as well makes me think that it would have been untenable if the US didn't respond as well
 
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britbox

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Of course Trump will have authorised it... he sold out to the Deep State to hold onto power. Surrounding himself with CIA and warhawks like Boulton is a self-preservation policy. Now we'll see a resumption of Deep State American Foreign Policy... which is to preserve power... meaning isolating China after dealing with Syria, Iran and Russia. The roadmap has been common knowledge for years.

So, rather than the Russians simply putting a bullet in a guys head or getting rid of him when he was in a Russian Jail for years, they elected to use an exclusively Soviet nerve agent on foreign soil, given 36 hours to explain it and denied access to any evidence... Rolleyes.., something doesn't add up.
 
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Federberg

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Of course Trump will have authorised it... he sold out to the Deep State to hold onto power. Surrounding himself with CIA and warhawks like Boulton is a self-preservation policy. Now we'll see a resumption of Deep State American Foreign Policy... which is to preserve power... meaning isolating China after dealing with Syria, Iran and Russia. The roadmap has been common knowledge for years.

So, rather than the Russians simply putting a bullet in a guys head or getting rid of him when he was in a Russian Jail for years, they elected to use an exclusively Soviet nerve agent on foreign soil, given 36 hours to explain it and denied access to any evidence... Rolleyes.., something doesn't add up.
doesn't the tin foil hat make your head sweat? :lol6:

the alternative could well be that the Russians felt that the agent was unlikely to be detectable, and even if it was Britain is isolated and weak at the moment it would be the ultimate insult. They've clearly succeeded at making Western liberal democracy doubt itself
 

GameSetAndMath

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Russia is incompetent. Kim Jong Un did a wonderful job of eliminating his anit in Malaysian (?) air port nicely.
 

mrzz

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Of course Trump will have authorised it... he sold out to the Deep State to hold onto power. Surrounding himself with CIA and warhawks like Boulton is a self-preservation policy. Now we'll see a resumption of Deep State American Foreign Policy... which is to preserve power... meaning isolating China after dealing with Syria, Iran and Russia. The roadmap has been common knowledge for years.

So, rather than the Russians simply putting a bullet in a guys head or getting rid of him when he was in a Russian Jail for years, they elected to use an exclusively Soviet nerve agent on foreign soil, given 36 hours to explain it and denied access to any evidence... Rolleyes.., something doesn't add up.

..and the only official word on the analysis cites a Novichok class agent. Not only they cannot be sure of where it came from, they have not shown exactly what it is (which is something quite easy to do).

Furthermore -- and this is the important part -- the official explanation is the same one given in the immediate aftermath of the event. The whole theory is the one given without any technical analysis. It is at best a guess. In fact, even the wording on the official communications of all countries expelling Russian diplomats show that there is lack of evidence. I was sure nothing concrete was there when I read the joint communication from France and Germany. The expression used was "well founded".

Is it possible that the Russian state did this? Yes. There are other possibilities? Hell yes. To begin with, I bet the list of private citizens/international criminals with some bile against a former double agent is not short.

As long as people take plausible theories as absolutely certain, post-truth will always rule.
 
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Federberg

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^ They seem to have a reasonable grasp of what it is, and where it was applied...
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/20..._source=LI&li_medium=li-recommendation-widget

and it's interesting that Russian bots seem to be active trying to spread disinformation as well...
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/20...ttempted-manipulate-view-salisbury-poisoning/

These types of nerve agents are unique to Russia. The idea that they would be accessible to others outside of the Russian government/military seems far fetched to me
 

britbox

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doesn't the tin foil hat make your head sweat? :lol6:

the alternative could well be that the Russians felt that the agent was unlikely to be detectable, and even if it was Britain is isolated and weak at the moment it would be the ultimate insult. They've clearly succeeded at making Western liberal democracy doubt itself

I sweat more under McCarthyism...
 
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Federberg

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I sweat more under McCarthyism...
Let's wait for Mueller to see if there's fire. So far it certainly seems like there's smoke. Or do you believe that somehow there's something dishonest about what Mueller is doing?
 

britbox

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..and the only official word on the analysis cites a Novichok class agent. Not only they cannot be sure of where it came from, they have not shown exactly what it is (which is something quite easy to do).

Furthermore -- and this is the important part -- the official explanation is the same one given in the immediate aftermath of the event. The whole theory is the one given without any technical analysis. It is at best a guess. In fact, even the wording on the official communications of all countries expelling Russian diplomats show that there is lack of evidence. I was sure nothing concrete was there when I read the joint communication from France and Germany. The expression used was "well founded".

Is it possible that the Russian state did this? Yes. There are other possibilities? Hell yes. To begin with, I bet the list of private citizens/international criminals with some bile against a former double agent is not short.

As long as people take plausible theories as absolutely certain, post-truth will always rule.

The "Truth" is ultimately what you want it to be. Events are factual... Truth is more often an interpretation of events... it's often not really "truth" at all given the definition of the word.

The first thing I consider when an event like this happens... is who benefits the most? It's never 100% accurate but provides a healthy scepticism on a given narrative. There is an unhealthy hysterical Anti-Russian rhetoric in the western world at the moment that reminds me of cold war days.
 

Federberg

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Wow! Apparently in 2014 Facebook did an experiment on half a million of it's users. It tested whether it could alter users emotional states by showing users positive or negative manufactured stories. It worked. So the idea that Facebook didn't affect the elections starts to look weaker and weaker. Remember they only had to impact a few hundred thousand voters in swing states
 

Federberg

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The "Truth" is ultimately what you want it to be. Events are factual... Truth is more often an interpretation of events... it's often not really "truth" at all given the definition of the word.

The first thing I consider when an event like this happens... is who benefits the most? It's never 100% accurate but provides a healthy scepticism on a given narrative. There is an unhealthy hysterical Anti-Russian rhetoric in the western world at the moment that reminds me of cold war days.

This is one of the most insidious things I've read on this site I must say. Truth is a little bit more than that. For a start if interpretation is dishonest you can't say the conclusion is truthful.

As for the anti-Russian rhetoric, it seems that one side sees malign intent in Russian activities and the other doesn't. I guess this is interpretation of events as you say. I can see the malign intent of Russian aggression in Ukraine or genocide in Syria and still see the possibility of CIA intervention in Ukraine and manipulation of the Arab Spring. One doesn't have to drink the Kool-aid of one side to the exclusion of everything else. That would be a lack of objective thinking.

The world is a strange place to me these days. I don't understand this desire to pledge unswerving allegiance to one side and surrender one's own values. Far better to maintain a critical view of all parties. In that way there will be things that one side does that you approve of and others that you don't. To me politics is like shopping in a supermarket. You buy the products you want, and skip the ones you don't. You don't sit at home and let people tell you what you want or should like. At least that's the way I think it should be
 

Horsa

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This is one of the most insidious things I've read on this site I must say. Truth is a little bit more than that. For a start if interpretation is dishonest you can't say the conclusion is truthful.

As for the anti-Russian rhetoric, it seems that one side sees malign intent in Russian activities and the other doesn't. I guess this is interpretation of events as you say. I can see the malign intent of Russian aggression in Ukraine or genocide in Syria and still see the possibility of CIA intervention in Ukraine and manipulation of the Arab Spring. One doesn't have to drink the Kool-aid of one side to the exclusion of everything else. That would be a lack of objective thinking.

The world is a strange place to me these days. I don't understand this desire to pledge unswerving allegiance to one side and surrender one's own values. Far better to maintain a critical view of all parties. In that way there will be things that one side does that you approve of and others that you don't. To me politics is like shopping in a supermarket. You buy the products you want, and skip the ones you don't. You don't sit at home and let people tell you what you want or should like. At least that's the way I think it should be
Please may I interrupt you 2 gentlemen? I've got something relevant to say pertaining to what you're both saying.
 
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