US Politics Thread

Moxie

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This from the Editorial Board of the NYTimes today. I know they're behind a paywall, so I copy the whole thing:

THE EDITORIAL BOARD

A Failure of Leadership at American Universities​

Protesting the world’s wrongs has been a rite of passage for generations of American youth, buoyed by our strong laws protecting free speech and free assembly. Yet the students and other demonstrators disrupting college campuses this spring are being taught the wrong lesson — for as admirable as it can be to stand up for your beliefs, there are no guarantees that doing so will be without consequence.
The highest calling of a university is to craft a culture of open inquiry, one where both free speech and academic freedom are held as ideals. Protest is part of that culture, and the issue around which so many of the current demonstrations are centered — U.S. involvement in the Israel-Hamas conflict — ought to be fiercely and regularly debated on college campuses.

The Constitutional right to free speech is the protection against government interference restricting speech. Therefore, leaders at public universities, which are funded by government, have a heightened duty to respect those boundaries. Private institutions don’t have the same legal obligations, but that doesn’t relieve them of the responsibility to encourage open dialogue whenever and wherever possible on their campuses. It’s essential to the pursuit of learning.
In the real world, though, this can get messy, and nuance is required when free speech comes into tension with protecting academic freedom. The earliest universities to adopt the principle of academic freedom did so to thwart interference and influence from totalitarian states and religious zealotry. Today, the American Association of University Professors defines it as “the freedom of a teacher or researcher in higher education to investigate and discuss the issues in his or her academic field, and to teach or publish findings without interference from political figures, boards of trustees, donors or other entities.”

Student codes of conduct and other guidelines are meant to relieve some of the tension between free speech and academic freedom, as well as to ensure that schools are in compliance with government regulations and laws. Every campus has them. But rules matter only when guardrails are consistently upheld. It’s in that enforcement that the leadership of too many universities has fallen short.

The point of protest is to break such rules, of course, and to disrupt daily routines so profoundly as to grab on to the world’s attention and sympathies. Campuses should be able to tolerate some degree of disruption, which is inherent to any protest. That makes it even more important that school administrators respond when the permissible limits for speech are violated.

During the current demonstrations, a lack of accountability has helped produce a crisis.
It has left some Jewish students feeling systematically harassed. It has deprived many students of access to parts of campus life. On campuses where in-person classes or commencement exercises were canceled, students have watched their basic expectations for a university experience evaporate. And at times, the protesters themselves have been directly endangered — the disarray and violence of the past weeks has been escalated by the continued involvement of both the police and external agitators.

Amid the protests, there has been much discussion of both antisemitism and Islamophobia, and when the line is crossed into hate speech. There are profound risks to imposing overly expansive definitions of inappropriate speech, and universities have been rightly chided for doing so in the past. But it should be easy to agree that no student, faculty member, administrator or university staff member on a campus should be threatened or intimidated. School policies should reflect that, and they should be enforced when necessary.

In the longer term, a lack of clarity around acceptable forms of expression, and a failure to hold those who break those norms to account, has opened up the pursuit of higher learning to the whims of those motivated by hypocrisy and cynicism.

For years, right-wing Republicans, at the federal and state level, have found opportunities to crusade against academic freedom, with charges of antisemitism on campus serving as the latest vehicle. Speaker Mike Johnson of the House of Representatives used this moment of chaos as cover to begin a legislative effort to crack down on elite universities, and lawmakers in the House recently passed a proposal that would impose egregious government restrictions on free speech. The Senate should reject those efforts unequivocally.

The absence of steady and principled leadership is what opened the campus gates to such cynicism in the first place. For several years, many university leaders have failed to act as their students and faculty have shown ever greater readiness to block an expanding range of views that they deem wrong or beyond the pale. Some scholars report that this has had a chilling effect on their work, making them less willing to participate in the academy or in the wider world of public discourse. The price of pushing boundaries, particularly with more conservative ideas, has become higher and higher.

Schools ought to be teaching their students that there is as much courage in listening as there is in speaking up. It has not gone unnoticed — on campuses but also by members of Congress and by the public writ large — that many of those who are now demanding the right to protest have previously sought to curtail the speech of those whom they declared hateful.

Establishing a culture of openness and free expression is crucial to the mission of educational institutions. That includes clear guardrails on conduct and enforcement of those guardrails, regardless of the speaker or the topic. Doing so would not only help restore order on college campuses today, but would also strengthen the cultural bedrock of higher education for generations to come.
 

Federberg

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"Seriously disturbed" seems a bit much. I'd like to see the original Bill Maher interview with her, but can't find it, so if you can, please provide. All I can find is Maher's bilious comparison, and I don't always find him the most reliable narrator.

I know that Me-Too victimhood bothers you, but I think you exaggerate it here, in terms of importance. I honestly don't see how you think that makes Trump in any way a sympathetic figure. Other than to men who think women are out to get them?

I find it perfectly plausible that she went to meet him, hoping he could do something for her career. She's always said that. Just because the sex was consensual, doesn't mean that it wasn't transactional, in her mind, and yes, there was a power imbalance. She's a porn star, and she wanted some sway with him, in an entree to more mainstream TV, and turns out the price of his attention was sex. Just because she obliged doesn't make him less of a creep.

There was a lot of how she addressed the cross that was pretty brave and stuck it to the "Orange Turd." She certainly didn't project victimhood, IMO. When they asked about her hawking products, she said, "Like Trump." Snap!

You might also consider that she was coached by the prosecution. She was clear in the details. It's hard to believe they didn't have sex, as Trump claims. Which is not crucial, but it does influence the jury in the notion that he paid hush-money for a reason. Obviously, the actual point is what the intent was, in paying the hush money: if it was meant to influence the election. The more they believe that Trump had sex with her, the more likely they are to believe that he'd have a political motive to cover it up.
Well of course YOU don’t find it seriously disturbing. As a man, the fact that a woman can change her story in 4k and most people unquestioningly accept it is seriously disturbing.
 

Moxie

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Well of course YOU don’t find it seriously disturbing. As a man, the fact that a woman can change her story in 4k and most people unquestioningly accept it is seriously disturbing.
"In 4K?" This is a film term. Suggesting high-resolution. Is there another meaning?

How do you know that "most people unquestioningly accept it?" In the same way that you're convinced it makes Trump seem more sympathetic? Is this based on polls, or just on your gut reaction to it?

I think you've lost the forest for the trees on this one.
 

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"In 4K?" This is a film term. Suggesting high-resolution. Is there another meaning?
google it. You seem to use the resources of the web when you want to prove a point, but become passive aggressive when you have an issue with something you don't like :)

How do you know that "most people unquestioningly accept it?" In the same way that you're convinced it makes Trump seem more sympathetic? Is this based on polls, or just on your gut reaction to it?
I've seen absolutely no push back on her evolving story. I get it... a lot of folks dislike Trump. Heck it's well known that I don't like the guy. But her story has changed. We all know her story has changed, not a single comment about it. It's glaring

I think you've lost the forest for the trees on this one.
I see the forest, you seem intent on wiping your behind with some leaves :D
 
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Moxie

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google it. You seem to use the resources of the web when you want to prove a point, but become passive aggressive when you have an issue with. something you don't like :)
I did google it, before I asked. I got a full page of digital resolution. So just now I added "slang." I guess it comes from that, anyway. Thanks for being so helpful, though. ;)
 

Federberg

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Morning Joe had a fascinating debate about the NYT and its Presidential polling today. Scarborough calls out the NYT for creating clickbait to drive sales. I've said it before and I'll say it again. NYT is a shit newspaper, and I question their malign intent around Presidential elections. They did it against HRC and they're at it again now. Paper of record my a$$

 

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^if it's not clear, although I've said this a zillion times. I have no issue with NYT polls if they're true. It's not that the polls have a Trump bias. It's the fact that this is supposed to be the pinnacle of journalism but they clearly skew what they do for their own agenda. Report the truth or shut your a$$ up!
 

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can you imagine if this stuff was done by the spouse of a progressive SCJ?? I thought it was just Clarence Thomas's wife, but Alito as well??:facepalm:

 
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shawnbm

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I have never heard of this concerning this particular justice until today, and I am wondering what the source is. I'm a bit skeptical that this is true, as I have a hard time believing this only now has come to light.
 

Moxie

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I have never heard of this concerning this particular justice until today, and I am wondering what the source is. I'm a bit skeptical that this is true, as I have a hard time believing this only now has come to light.
Oh, it's true. Everyone's reporting it, and there are photos. Apparently, a neighborhood clash between progressives and conservatives. Some neighbor put up and anti-Trump sign, and the Alito's (Samuel pins it on his wife) hung the flag upside down. It was up for 2 weeks, according to neighbors. It's against the code of behavior for judges, though SCOTUS doesn't have one, or didn't when this happened. Funny it took so long to make the news, though.
 

shawnbm

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^ agreed I saw it in the NYT. Strange it is just now becoming a matter.
 
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Federberg

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I think people are smart. They hold this stuff until it causes maximum damage. What I want to know is how on earth Thomas and Alito don't recuse themselves. There is no honour anymore..
 
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Federberg

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^And quite frankly what kind of a real man blames his wife for this?? If she put the flag up, as a SCJ he should have taken it down within minutes. I find it hard to believe that he wasn't supporting her activity if it stayed up for 2 freaking weeks? He's either a weak man or a liar. Neither conclusion is suitable for a SCJ
 

Moxie

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^And quite frankly what kind of a real man blames his wife for this?? If she put the flag up, as a SCJ he should have taken it down within minutes. I find it hard to believe that he wasn't supporting her activity if it stayed up for 2 freaking weeks? He's either a weak man or a liar. Neither conclusion is suitable for a SCJ
That's what I say! Doesn't he live in the house? He failed to notice?? "The dog ate my homework." What a wuss. And yes, unsuitable.
 

shawnbm

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We need to leave the Supremes alone--Sotomayor has said things at addresses that brought heat. RBG too. Who knows what could have been found about Chief Justice Warren or Justice Brennan or others if we had the kind of scrutiny of today. Incredible Justice Hugo Black has not been taken up by the modern era in light of his admitted involvement with the Klan right up until he was appointed to the SCOTUS.
 

Moxie

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We need to leave the Supremes alone--Sotomayor has said things at addresses that brought heat. RBG too. Who knows what could have been found about Chief Justice Warren or Justice Brennan or others if we had the kind of scrutiny of today. Incredible Justice Hugo Black has not been taken up by the modern era in light of his admitted involvement with the Klan right up until he was appointed to the SCOTUS.
I don't agree we should leave them alone. They're not leaving US alone. I think they absolutely should be formally held to the same code of conduct as other judges in this country, and I don't think they should be appointed for life. Clearly, lifetime appointment doesn't prevent them from being political so end it. When there is a clear conflict of interests, they should be obligated to recuse themselves. Apparently just waiting around hoping someone will do the honorable thing is a waste of idealism.
 

shawnbm

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Well, now that is interesting. I assume you are not naïve enough to think that the Justices of the highest federal court of the land are different in terms of personality, political beliefs and whatnot than the ones from 60 years ago, 80 years ago, etc. Clearly, the seven or eight justices appointed by FDR, the great liberal Pres. of the 20th century, had far-reaching impacts right through the 1960s and 1970s. Thurgood Marshall, Hugo Black, William O. Douglas and others, as well as those that followed in their footsteps like William Brennan and Earl Warren, the Chief Justice himself. Any objection to the decisions that they came down with back in the day? (The Burger Court was a little more mixed). The exact same thing you are saying could have been used against them and maybe certain things would not have come to pass. I do not think the highest court in the land should change on a whim depending upon who wins the White House coupled with whoever happens to be in the halls of Congress at that time--too western European for me. I think it should be a lifetime appointment. Everything changed here with Sen. Edward Kennedy and his minions attacking Judge Robert Bork in the 1980s and made everything worse and this discussion possible. It was an intentional act by Sen. Kennedy to do whatever he need to do to stop that particular jurors from being appointed to the court and ever since then we have had this circus surrounding only those who do not fit the mold that the press and, let's face it, the liberals of this nation want on the highest court. Nobody challenged Justices Brownl, Kagan, Sotomayor or other liberal justices before them, including Justice Ginsburg, like judge Bork, Justices Cavanaugh, Alito and Thomas or, for that matter, due to her apparent Catholic roots, Justice Barrett. It has never been like that for the liberal justices or the ones who are less inclined to a strict interpretation or textual interpretation of the United States Constitution. So, be careful what you wish for
 

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Well, now that is interesting. I assume you are not naïve enough to think that the Justices of the highest federal court of the land are different in terms of personality, political beliefs and whatnot than the ones from 60 years ago, 80 years ago, etc. Clearly, the seven or eight justices appointed by FDR, the great liberal Pres. of the 20th century, had far-reaching impacts right through the 1960s and 1970s. Thurgood Marshall, Hugo Black, William O. Douglas and others, as well as those that followed in their footsteps like William Brennan and Earl Warren, the Chief Justice himself. Any objection to the decisions that they came down with back in the day? (The Burger Court was a little more mixed). The exact same thing you are saying could have been used against them and maybe certain things would not have come to pass. I do not think the highest court in the land should change on a whim depending upon who wins the White House coupled with whoever happens to be in the halls of Congress at that time--too western European for me. I think it should be a lifetime appointment. Everything changed here with Sen. Edward Kennedy and his minions attacking Judge Robert Bork in the 1980s and made everything worse and this discussion possible. It was an intentional act by Sen. Kennedy to do whatever he need to do to stop that particular jurors from being appointed to the court and ever since then we have had this circus surrounding only those who do not fit the mold that the press and, let's face it, the liberals of this nation want on the highest court. Nobody challenged Justices Brownl, Kagan, Sotomayor or other liberal justices before them, including Justice Ginsburg, like judge Bork, Justices Cavanaugh, Alito and Thomas or, for that matter, due to her apparent Catholic roots, Justice Barrett. It has never been like that for the liberal justices or the ones who are less inclined to a strict interpretation or textual interpretation of the United States Constitution. So, be careful what you wish for
you have a point in that there should be a separation between the political cycle and the SC. But I still think some modernisation is necessary. You can't tell me that life time appointments were designed for the length of incumbency that exists now. Back in the 1800s I imagine the idea was for SC's to be on the bench for considerably longer than the legislature and executive. That would enable them to be relatively insulated from politics. At that time, given life expectancy, we're probably looking at justices being on the bench for max 18years? What happens in another 50yrs when life expectancy isn't 80, but 120? Do you really think the framers conceived of a situation where these guys have multi-generational terms? I don't think so. I agree with @Moxie 18 years would be enough. I also think that the legislature should have some sort of statutory authority to question behaviour like we've seen from Thomas and Alito. Yes I concede that there's been partisanship and malfeasance in the past. But you have to account for the era we're in now. There's simply no way that in the past the flow of information was comparable to what we have in this Information Age. The risk to the authority and intangible mandate of the people is too great when these people can be monitored like never before. We can't stick our heads in the sand and behave like these things don't matter...
 
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