US Politics Thread

[Moxie]

Your lips to Gods Ear, brother. The unfortunate thing is that science itself has aligned itself tribally. I doubt that any of this will be openly discussed during any election cycles..

This is a bit ironic, though. You complain that it's been handled too "tribally," but you keep insisting that it should be a big topic in the election cycle. I answered you on this more than once, and then you complain that my final response was not very mature. I just don't know how your insisting on it being a topic during this election is going to make that happen. And I certainly don't see how it's going to get any less political if discussed during a political contest. I agree with Tented and Federberg above that it needs to be analyzed and learned from, which I also said.

There are a lot of important issues at stake in this presidential election in the US, and I'm not sure how much air time Covid will get, which will be 20/20 hindsight, as T says, and will involve a lot of useless finger-pointing if it hits the campaign trail. Better an independent commission to study it.

 

[Kieran]

This is a bit ironic, though. You complain that it's been handled too "tribally," but you keep insisting that it should be a big topic in the election cycle. I answered you on this more than once, and then you complain that my final response was not very mature. I just don't know how your insisting on it being a topic during this election is going to make that happen.

Of course nobody is going to read a post on a tennis site and decide to make the contents of the post a national topic of debate. But there was too much about a covid to ignore and it tells us a lot about the uses and abuses of power.

Every country that faces a general election should hold the politicians to account on this. Imagine a president freezing citizens bank accounts and not being called to order for that.

The independent investigation should focus sharply on the health services, they activities, and their advices.

And I certainly don't see how it's going to get any less political if discussed during a political contest. I agree with Tented and Federberg above that it needs to be analyzed and learned from, which I also said.

This can only happen when questions are a must. You kinda dismissed the idea of it being a big deal during the election. It actually should be a big deal, and as I said, it’s not enough that questions can be asked, as you put it: questions must be asked.

And I wasn’t just thinking of America. Remember, I said it was every country. There are definite signs of institutional overreach, which tends to be more acceptable to the left, who prefer big government, and although I agree that tribalism is the blind zombie barging through through the aisle, this was too big an event to not call everyone to account, asap..

 

[Moxie]

Of course nobody is going to read a post on a tennis site and decide to make the contents of the post a national topic of debate. But there was too much about a covid to ignore and it tells us a lot about the uses and abuses of power.

Every country that faces a general election should hold the politicians to account on this. Imagine a president freezing citizens bank accounts and not being called to order for that.

The independent investigation should focus sharply on the health services, they activities, and their advices.

This can only happen when questions are a must. You kinda dismissed the idea of it being a big deal during the election. It actually should be a big deal, and as I said, it’s not enough that questions can be asked, as you put it: questions must be asked.

And I wasn’t just thinking of America. Remember, I said it was every country. There are definite signs of institutional overreach, which tends to be more acceptable to the left, who prefer big government, and although I agree that tribalism is the blind zombie barging through through the aisle, this was too big an event to not call everyone to account, asap..

Yes, I WAS ribbing you, because you keep repeating it, here, because it's important to you. We agree about the investigation. I'll be interested if questions are asked of candidates. As I said, if it comes down to Trump and Biden, they both have things to answer for on their respective watches.

However, there are a LOT of things that are of the utmost importance to be discussed in this election cycle, and everyone lists things in different order of priority. I don't mean to dismiss that this is important to you, but I'm saying, from what I'm getting from the US electorate, that Covid response, in retrospect, isn't high on the list. I've tried to say that nicely, and honestly, and then, yes, a bit snidely. You can say that it "must" be discussed, but I'm not sure how you're going to force that agenda. Or, perhaps it's just a cri de coeur.

 

[Kieran]

Yes, I WAS ribbing you, because you keep repeating it, here, because it's important to you. We agree about the investigation. I'll be interested if questions are asked of candidates. As I said, if it comes down to Trump and Biden, they both have things to answer for on their respective watches.

However, there are a LOT of things that are of the utmost importance to be discussed in this election cycle, and everyone lists things in different order of priority. I don't mean to dismiss that this is important to you, but I'm saying, from what I'm getting from the US electorate, that Covid response, in retrospect, isn't high on the list. I've tried to say that nicely, and honestly, and then, yes, a bit snidely. You can say that it "must" be discussed, but I'm not sure how you're going to force that agenda. Or, perhaps it's just a cri de coeur.

No, it’s just an obvious thing that has to be discussed as a priority. You’re a more forgiving nation than I think you are if you just give people a free pass on this..

 

[Moxie]

No, it’s just an obvious thing that has to be discussed as a priority. You’re a more forgiving nation than I think you are if you just give people a free pass on this..

*Sigh* It's an obvious thing to you. We're not a forgiving nation. I'd call us a pretty divided and vindictive nation, at this moment in time. It's just one that has a huge passel of things on the list, and your most worrisome thing is not so high on it, as far as I can see right now. That's my view from the ground.

 

[Kieran]

*Sigh* It's an obvious thing to you. We're not a forgiving nation. I'd call us a pretty divided and vindictive nation, at this moment in time. It's just one that has a huge passel of things on the list, and your most worrisome thing is not so high on it, as far as I can see right now. That's my view from the ground.

Nobody is disagreeing with your views from the ground. No need to be touchy. You can discuss many things between now and the election, and you will. Small example of its importance: do you remember the reaction from your tribe to Trump’s reaction to covid? The rising death tolls. This isn’t a priority to discuss? Or have you all forgotten already? And there are complaints from the other tribe about institutional overreach.

Covid was the biggest thing all our politicians faced and it simply isn’t good enough to give them a pass, because they were inexperienced in pandemic handling. They politicised the bloody thing. That’s the problem…

 

[britbox]

In some respects, covid has been turned into the epitome of the cliche “hindsight is 20/20” — it’s only now, literally years later in certain instances, that we can look back and realize various decisions were wrong. At the time, however, before we knew everything we now know, people made decisions based on possible outcomes. Anyone who has seen the movie “Contagion” — which was carefully vetted by virologists, public health doctors, etc. — will know how terribly things can go. We also have the 1918-1920 Spanish Flu outbreak as a real life example of how a virus can spread disastrously and kill millions. When covid began, politicians and public health officials didn’t know what they were dealing with, therefore they acted conservatively in order to save lives. Only now can we look back and know certain decisions and actions were unnecessary, if not outright wrong. To blame them in retrospect for certain decisions is inappropriate.

The decisions were wrong at the time... not in hindsight.

We had Fauci making speeches about a "random" pandemic happening in Trump's first term. We had every Western nation ditch their pandemic preparedness plans...Every Western nation enacting censorship against alternative treatments. The funders and promoters of "the magical vaccine" with a long history of eugenics and depopulation speeches.... Sorry, there seems to be a lockstep of "mistakes" and incompetence across the entire Western leadership... Time to stop doubling down on this nonsense... it was a planned event to reshape the world.

Digital Currency (Programmable), 15 minute cities, Transgenderism/Transhumanism... all dismissed as silly conspiracy theories three years ago... yet all happening right now.

... and it's not the first time this has happened. Do the maths on world population figures.... and reproduction rates. It's pretty easy to figure out once one stops delegating critical thinking to criminals in lab coats and suits...

 

[Federberg]

The decisions were wrong at the time... not in hindsight.

We had Fauci making speeches about a "random" pandemic happening in Trump's first term. We had every Western nation ditch their pandemic preparedness plans...Every Western nation enacting censorship against alternative treatments. The funders and promoters of "the magical vaccine" with a long history of eugenics and depopulation speeches.... Sorry, there seems to be a lockstep of "mistakes" and incompetence across the entire Western leadership... Time to stop doubling down on this nonsense... it was a planned event to reshape the world.

Digital Currency (Programmable), 15 minute cities, Transgenderism/Transhumanism... all dismissed as silly conspiracy theories three years ago... yet all happening right now.

... and it's not the first time this has happened. Do the maths on world population figures.... and reproduction rates. It's pretty easy to figure out once one stops delegating critical thinking to criminals in lab coats and suits...

Just Western leadership? It was a global clusterfuck mate. Not in the least specific to the West. Just look at China...

 

[Kieran]

The decisions were wrong at the time... not in hindsight.

We had Fauci making speeches about a "random" pandemic happening in Trump's first term. We had every Western nation ditch their pandemic preparedness plans...Every Western nation enacting censorship against alternative treatments. The funders and promoters of "the magical vaccine" with a long history of eugenics and depopulation speeches.... Sorry, there seems to be a lockstep of "mistakes" and incompetence across the entire Western leadership... Time to stop doubling down on this nonsense... it was a planned event to reshape the world.

Digital Currency (Programmable), 15 minute cities, Transgenderism/Transhumanism... all dismissed as silly conspiracy theories three years ago... yet all happening right now.

... and it's not the first time this has happened. Do the maths on world population figures.... and reproduction rates. It's pretty easy to figure out once one stops delegating critical thinking to criminals in lab coats and suits...

I’m down with a lot of this. Tranhumanism isn’t really in my interest sphere but of course the transgender push is deliberate, divisive and dangerous. The origins of the virus are being disputed openly now, with American funded gain of function research being in the mix. All of this was silenced ruthlessly during the pandemic which had the effect of leaving us wondering what they’re trying to hide. Lies, authoritarianism, oppression of good scientists, the near destruction of economies, while ‘mostly peaceful protests’ of the unmasked were actively encouraged.

It was a bizarre time and all of this was political, not scientific…

 

[britbox]

Just Western leadership? It was a global clusterfuck mate. Not in the least specific to the West. Just look at China...

The focus is on the West because China has already largely implemented what is coming to the West. Haven't you noticed your ministries of "misinformation and disinformation" popping up yet? "fact checkers" funded by the same organisations controlling the narrative? the 15 minute cities, centrally controlled digital currencies? It's getting tiresome to say... watch the legislation passed... not the news. Political parties are two wings of the same bird. Divide and Conquer. Keeps the masses at each others throats... while in the background, all your rights, and wealth are incrementally transferred away...

 

[Kieran]

The focus is on the West because China has already largely implemented what is coming to the West. Haven't you noticed your ministries of "misinformation and disinformation" popping up yet? "fact checkers" funded by the same organisations controlling the narrative? the 15 minute cities, centrally controlled digital currencies? It's getting tiresome to say... watch the legislation passed... not the news. Political parties are two wings of the same bird. Divide and Conquer. Keeps the masses at each others throats... while in the background, all your rights, and wealth are incrementally transferred away...

What’s a fifteen minute city?

 

[Moxie]

Nobody is disagreeing with your views from the ground. No need to be touchy. You can discuss many things between now and the election, and you will. Small example of its importance: do you remember the reaction from your tribe to Trump’s reaction to covid? The rising death tolls. This isn’t a priority to discuss? Or have you all forgotten already? And there are complaints from the other tribe about institutional overreach.

Covid was the biggest thing all our politicians faced and it simply isn’t good enough to give them a pass, because they were inexperienced in pandemic handling. They politicised the bloody thing. That’s the problem…

I don't feel the least touchy or angry about it, just exasperated that you keep saying the same thing over an over. And I'm not trying to play the US-card when I saw "view from the ground." I'm not dismissing your opinion, I'm just saying I don't see that topic having legs in this election. I could be wrong. Maybe you'll be right and it'll get a good airing over the next year.

 

[Kieran]

I don't feel the least touchy or angry about it, just exasperated that you keep saying the same thing over an over. And I'm not trying to play the US-card when I saw "view from the ground." I'm not dismissing your opinion, I'm just saying I don't see that topic having legs in this election. I could be wrong. Maybe you'll be right and it'll get a good airing over the next year.

If you’re exasperated, it’s hardly surprising. The greatest catastrophe to hit the world in my lifetime and yours became a political football where good scientists were accused of being conspiracy theorists, and people were discredited and cancelled routinely by left-wing media and social media companies when they questioned the so-called ‘science’. The world fell into corruption, due to bad politics, but your attitude is, what? *Sigh* this is so boring, sure, people can ask questions if they like, but so what? We’re busy promoting new cool racists.

You’re like that any time the left is up to something, or caught at it. Trans activists abusing children? *Sigh* it’s no biggie.

You sound like you’d prefer a one-party state where your side can get away with anything. But that’s not what politics is. Politics is about facing hard questions and swallowing hard truths, especially if they expose your side as wrongdoers. You should ask more questions, and not just about Trump or republican politicians you hate. Ask your own side some questions too. This tribalist evasion of truth seeking on both sides is destroying the west. The funny thing is, in doing this you’re creating monsters who hate you - and they’re all largely on the left..

 

[Jelenafan]

Would you apply that also to Trump’s response to the pandemic? I don’t think it’s inappropriate at all to ask hard questions and place blame firmly where it belongs regarding responses to the pandemic, which were at times more about politics than science..

Yes, many politicized the virus on both sides. DUH.

But For goodness sake, Kieran, as a standing President he completely politicized the Covid threat as a personal attack on him. As a standing President you need to have at least a sliver of bipartisan concern for the general safety and health of the country as a whole, you are the PRESIDENT, and the fact that the virus was spreading and killing tens of thousands of people. Didn't his own medical experts notified him of that? That segued to hundreds of thousands of deaths. Agree or disagree on the methods to combat the virus, and as others have said, hindsight is 20/20 but accept that it was (is) a valid and imminent threat to the general populace. Don't tell me that the relatives I lost to COVID did not happen.

Trump could not even acknowledge that, and forget tribalism, as a standing President that is inexcusable and reprehensible.

 

[Kieran]

Yes, many politicized the virus on both sides. DUH.

But For goodness sake, Kieran, as a standing President he completely politicized the Covid threat as a personal attack on him. As a standing President you need to have at least a sliver of bipartisan concern for the general safety and health of the country as a whole, you are the PRESIDENT, and the fact that the virus was spreading and killing tens of thousands of people. Didn't his own medical experts notified him of that? That segued to hundreds of thousands of deaths. Agree or disagree on the methods to combat the virus, and as others have said, hindsight is 20/20 but accept that it was (is) a valid and imminent threat to the general populace. Don't tell me that the relatives I lost to COVID did not happen.

Trump could not even acknowledge that, and forget tribalism, as a standing President that is inexcusable and reprehensible.

Absolutely.

And do you think this and the general handling of the pandemic by the leaders of your country should be examined during the election?

 

[britbox]

What’s a fifteen minute city?

Where zones are created supposedly to supply all your basic needs within 15 minutes walking/cycling/public transport distance.

 

[Jelenafan]

Absolutely.

And do you think this and the general handling of the pandemic by the leaders of your country should be examined during the election?

All I know is that the US Presidential elections are quirky, you never quite know until the election cycle is upon us what topics/issues are going to have "legs" during a campaign . Per your point if certain issues should be examined during the election

Many things are going to be thrown out there, which have resonance is anybody's guess.

Drumroll......
Sure, I would think Covid Response, Money spent on Covid, the Economy stupid which includes job creation, inflation, affordability, immigration, Hunter Biden, the Jan 6 insurrection, Trump's indictments, Biden's age and lucidity, Trump's documents at Mar a Lago, the legitimacy of the 2020 election results, climate change, abortion rights, supreme court decisions,, supreme court abuse of financial gain, transgender issues, LGBTQ issues, gay marriage, cancel culture, gun control , foreign policy including china and the Ukraine/Russia conflict, Putin, erosion of jobs in certain markets, Trumps payments to women, gas prices, taxes, cost of living, social security, medical coverage, sources of energy, drilling or no drilling, identity politics, racism , violence, protests, the anifada, Black Live mater, the right is taking away our rights, the left is taking away our rights, Trump's Presidential record, Biden's presidential record, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc etc, etc

It's anybody's guess which ones are going to sway the relatively undecided 5-15% swing voters.

And will the politicians latch onto which issue have more merit and urgency in our times? Of course not. They will concentrate on the ones that seem to drive the media cycle and get the attention of their focus groups and are red meat for increasing campaign donations.

 

[Kieran]

All I know is that the US Presidential elections are quirky, you never quite know until the election cycle is upon us what topics/issues are going to have "legs" during a campaign . Per your point if certain issues should be examined during the election

Many things are going to be thrown out there, which have resonance is anybody's guess.

Drumroll......
Sure, I would think Covid Response, Money spent on Covid, the Economy stupid which includes job creation, inflation, affordability, immigration, Hunter Biden, the Jan 6 insurrection, Trump's indictments, Biden's age and lucidity, Trump's documents at Mar a Lago, the legitimacy of the 2020 election results, climate change, abortion rights, supreme court decisions,, supreme court abuse of financial gain, transgender issues, LGBTQ issues, gay marriage, cancel culture, gun control , foreign policy including china and the Ukraine/Russia conflict, Putin, erosion of jobs in certain markets, Trumps payments to women, gas prices, taxes, cost of living, social security, medical coverage, sources of energy, drilling or no drilling, identity politics, racism , violence, protests, the anifada, Black Live mater, the right is taking away our rights, the left is taking away our rights, Trump's Presidential record, Biden's presidential record, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc etc, etc

It's anybody's guess which ones are going to sway the relatively undecided 5-15% swing voters.

And will the politicians latch onto which issue have more merit and urgency in our times? Of course not. They will concentrate on the ones that seem to drive the media cycle and get the attention of their focus groups and are red meat for increasing campaign donations.

I get that, and this is common to all general elections. We’ll get the same stuff here when it’s our turn. Politicians will try divert the gaze towards whatever works for them. It’s up to us to hammer them and make sure they don’t continuously try to avoid taking responsibility. And of course, the economy, jobs and homelessness are always the things that people worry about most. Activists will screech destructively about their current fad. But we’d all be really ‘sheeple’ if we don’t delve into the machinations and corruptions of state that turned covid into a political circus that ruined lives, and worse..

 

[Kieran]

Where zones are created supposedly to supply all your basic needs within 15 minutes walking/cycling/public transport distance.

I’m still not sure what this means. That people will live within their zone?

 

[britbox]

I’m still not sure what this means. That people will live within their zone?

Here is the Dublin plan:

Dublin: The 15 Minute City - Council.ie

The 15 Minute City is an ambitious urban planning concept focusing on community planning, the local economy, and the liveability of a city...

council.ie

Now, a few years ago, the concept of a 15 minute city was dismissed as a conspiracy theory. Now they're on regional and council plans all over the world, and the media now say it's what 15 minute cities are purported to be, that is the "conspiracy". Yet, Travel restrictions to a soft extent are already being rolled out with things like the Ulez schemes... you can travel but if you're in a certain type of vehicle, you have to pay more to do it. Of course, during Covid many of us couldn't travel beyond 5km. With the thousands of cameras, 5G towers being put up, together with the programmable currencies being bought in... it's not hard to see where this will end up heading. Complete and utter authoritarian control, no privacy, controlled supply of food and energy, and destruction of the middle class altogether. Pretty much a return to feudalism.