US Politics Thread

[Kieran]

No. I used the correct word. There's no tribal politics. It's is liberals with mostly a progressive agenda. It's the old school conservatives who are bigots, nazis, idiots and racists, not good, virtuous, noble people like us.

I fixed that for you because you had a comma out of place.

This, by the way, is evidence of tribal thinking: "We good, they bad!"

. Gore did eventually concede after a recount that was warranted.

Yes, he waited until there was a recount and a prolonged challenge in the courts that wound up in the highest court in your country, then he conceded when he had to. And by the way he was correct to take that course. I wouldn't criticise him for it.

McClain, Hilary, Bush Sr.,Kerry, and Romney all conceded but you trying to say Trump has a right to contest..He knows he Lost.

Until all the votes are counted, he still has a chance to win. Look up the numbers, even PA is still technically in play. He has a right to wait at least until then, but if there is anything to contest, he has rights there too. Every vote counts, right? Every vote should be counted, no?

That is sacrilege.

This is the second political discussion you and I have had where you misused the word "sacrilege." You should look it up someday, it's a useful word, when used properly...

 

[Kieran]

Sacrilege. A violation or misuse of what is regarded as sacred. We are talking about Trump. Let's change the word from the single word sacrilege to a total dereliction of duty.
You and I are going to stop this conversation. Political and religious views can never find common ground.
Although we may be in alignment with the same tennis champion, off the court we are total polar opposites.

Going by your misuse use of the word sacrilege, and confused by how your definition of that word applies in our conversation, we must also now disagree on what the word "sacred" means, too.

It's no harm to disagree, buddy, it's only harmful when we get on our high horse and think, "I'm right and this person is a bad person for disagreeing with my ideological view." You are not, by the way, calling me a bad person, I would hope, but I would also hope even more than this that if you have family or friends who vote differently to you, that you might take an opportunity to learn from them , rather than accuse them.

In politics, of course we can find common ground, in fact, it's a necessary duty of anyone who would study politics to first extend the courtesy to the other side by accepting that they may also be acting in equally good faith. The tribalist never does this. The tribalist is entitled, and so acts in bad faith. The tribalist is suspicious, deaf and vindictive. I don't refer here to you, but to people who are trapped in thinking that only their tribe knows what's moral and good. We see them here in Ireland, we have them in Europe and they're everywhere, and politically, they're the problem - not the "other side..."

 

[Federberg]

oops...

https://www.washingtonpost.com/investigations/postal-worker-fabricated-ballot-pennsylvania/2020/11/10/99269a7c-2364-11eb-8599-406466ad1b8e_story.html

 

[the AntiPusher]

Going by your misuse use of the word sacrilege, and confused by how your definition of that word applies in our conversation, we must also now disagree on what the word "sacred" means, too.

It's no harm to disagree, buddy, it's only harmful when we get on our high horse and think, "I'm right and this person is a bad person for disagreeing with my ideological view." You are not, by the way, calling me a bad person, I would hope, but I would also hope even more than this that if you have family or friends who vote differently to you, that you might take an opportunity to learn from them , rather than accuse them.

In politics, of course we can find common ground, in fact, it's a necessary duty of anyone who would study politics to first extend the courtesy to the other side by accepting that they may also be acting in equally good faith. The tribalist never does this. The tribalist is entitled, and so acts in bad faith. The tribalist is suspicious, deaf and vindictive. I don't refer here to you, but to people who are trapped in thinking that only their tribe knows what's moral and good. We see them here in Ireland, we have them in Europe and they're everywhere, and politically, they're the problem - not the "other side..."

I think this is the first time I have EVER seen a poster edit another poster"s words. Kieran, why would you feel compelled to do so?

 

[Moxie]

I agree that as the counting is going, he's on the way to losing, but mathematically in PA, Georgia, NC, Arizona, there are still enough votes on the table for him to win. Real Clear Politics still has the standings as they actually are, with Biden still on 259 electoral college votes, Trump on 214.

He won't win, I agree, and as I said above, he would do everyone a favour if he conceded gracefully, but he's entitled to hang in there until it's done. My main point is about poisonous tribal divisions in politics - they place people in direct opposition to a view they strongly held when the shoe was on the other foot...

I think you can see here that the math is not on Trump's side:

Presidential Election Results: Biden Wins (Published 2020)

Joseph R. Biden Jr. was elected the 46th president of the United States. See full results and maps from the 2020 presidential election.

www.nytimes.com

Remember that we have an Electoral College, rather for the worse, but he's not close enough in any state he needs to put him over the top. It is unprecedented for him to be unwilling to concede, and not to give the Biden Administration access to the information they need to make a good transition. I agree that all votes should be counted, and they will be. But Trump has been lining up his grievances for loss well before he even lost. He's not a man who admits failure, and he will only slink away when he's got no other option.

 

[Moxie]

What about Hilary's right? What about Al Gore's right? They both conceded because it was for the best of the country. It's is sacrilege if people are dying because of his ego..

I don't know how much anyone wants to get into the fine points here, but Hilary won the popular vote, and lost in the Electoral college count. How ever much we want to consider the finagling, she had no option but to concede. At least under the old rules of decent behavior. Now, she could have sued, as Trump is going to do, and we might have fought it out in an investigation. She chose to back away, and give over to peaceful transition of powers. Gore is a very different case. Neither was the incumbent, either. FL was called by the press for Gore, then called for Bush, giving him the presumptive Presidency. The problem there was that, because Bush was the presumptive winner, and Gore was the one suing for the ballots to be counted, it was Gore who was fighting the uphill battle. In a stunning judgement by the Supreme Court, one that they called would have no precedent and couldn't be used again, they stopped the vote count and declared Bush the winner. This was a bit of a travesty. But it was considered to be in the interest of "peaceful transition of powers." One thing that was learned by the press, given that this election, during a pandemic, was going to have a lot of mail-in ballots, the press decided that trying to declare a winner on the night-of would be to put a finger on the scale (as it was in Bush v Gore,) so everyone sat back and waited. The math and the Electoral College have determined that Biden is the winner. Trump is inclined to keep fighting it out, and to impose a feeling of illegitimacy on the result, rather than accept the results. He's been setting that option up for many months, seeing the writing on the wall. He's a sore loser in all cases, and he has never cared about anything like decorous behavior or respecting precedent. So we will limp along, post-election, with Trump tweeting and complaining, and nothing getting prepared for, because he's too much of a pantywaist to recognize that he's lost.

 

[britbox]

oops...

https://www.washingtonpost.com/investigations/postal-worker-fabricated-ballot-pennsylvania/2020/11/10/99269a7c-2364-11eb-8599-406466ad1b8e_story.html

Looks like Wapo have been making stuff up again.

 

[britbox]

Question for the Dems on the board - Are you absolutely certain you've won Arizona?

That margin is looking pretty tight and most of the votes still out there appear to be from Trump leaning counties (based on votes to date).

 

[Kieran]

I think this is the first time I have EVER seen a poster edit another poster"s words. Kieran, why would you feel compelled to do so?

What do you mean? Where did I edit your words?

 

[Kieran]

Look, I think it's classy if the writing's on the wall that the impending loser should concede. I've said it now 3 times today, it's the last time I'll say it.

Fourth time to have to say this.......

 

[the AntiPusher]

I fixed that for you because you had a comma out of place.

Why did you EDIT? Those are your words you "fixed". Those are your views in BOLD.

This, by the way, is evidence of tribal thinking: "We good, they bad!"



Yes, he waited until there was a recount and a prolonged challenge in the courts that wound up in the highest court in your country, then he conceded when he had to. And by the way he was correct to take that course. I wouldn't criticise him for it.


Until all the votes are counted, he still has a chance to win. Look up the numbers, even PA is still technically in play. He has a right to wait at least until then, but if there is anything to contest, he has rights there too. Every vote counts, right? Every vote should be counted, no?

This is the second political discussion you and I have had where you misused the word "sacrilege." You should look it up someday, it's a useful word, when used properly...

 

[Kieran]

Why did you EDIT? Those are your words you "fixed". Those are your views in BOLD.

Oh that! You quoted a different reply when you asked the question.

I edited it for both humour purposes but also to show what I believe you really meant when you mentioned “old white conservatives” etc. I get chills when I see how easily people on the left so often - and lazily, and inaccurately - assume that anyone who disagrees with them is a nazi, bigot, racist etc, and here’s you saying that 71m people voted for Trump because they’re old white people clinging onto their “white privilege entitled status”.

This is a blatant suggestion that they’re racist, and also it disregards the black, Hispanic and Asian people who voted for him. It’s another nasty trope of the left, a racist one indeed, repeated by Biden himself, that “they ain’t black” if they vote for Trump. Presumably they ain’t Asian, they ain’t Hispanic either.

You should speak to people who voted Trump, instead of denigrating them, insulting them. Speak to them!

 

[Kieran]

Question for the Dems on the board - Are you absolutely certain you've won Arizona?

That margin is looking pretty tight and most of the votes still out there appear to be from Trump leaning counties (based on votes to date).

This is why Real Clear Politics haven’t called this one yet, they still have Biden on 259 EC votes until the other states are mathematically beyond Trump...

 

[Federberg]

Question for the Dems on the board - Are you absolutely certain you've won Arizona?

That margin is looking pretty tight and most of the votes still out there appear to be from Trump leaning counties (based on votes to date).

Obviously I'm an outside observer. Is it relevant anymore? Georgia, Nevada and Pennsylvania are out of reach. It's over..

 

[Federberg]

Looks like Wapo have been making stuff up again.

it's not just Wapo mate, other news outlets ran this too. Not sure which federal agents questioned him, but if it was the FBI he would have been compelled to tell the truth as we all know. Lying to those fellas is a crime. As so many Trump officials have declared, they are under no obligation to tell the truth to the media or twitter. It's hilarious to me that a tweet holds more credibility to you and a paper of record. But hey ho... it's no surprise

 

[the AntiPusher]

Oh that! You quoted a different reply when you asked the question.

I edited it for both humour purposes but also to show what I believe you really meant when you mentioned “old white conservatives” etc. I get chills when I see how easily people on the left so often - and lazily, and inaccurately - assume that anyone who disagrees with them is a nazi, bigot, racist etc, and here’s you saying that 71m people voted for Trump because they’re old white people clinging onto their “white privilege entitled status”.

This is a blatant suggestion that they’re racist, and also it disregards the black, Hispanic and Asian people who voted for him. It’s another nasty trope of the left, a racist one indeed, repeated by Biden himself, that “they ain’t black” if they vote for Trump. Presumably they ain’t Asian, they ain’t Hispanic either.

You should speak to people who voted Trump, instead of denigrating them, insulting them. Speak to them!

Kieran, You are the one who is stereotyping. Apparently my words are the God's honest truth. You see things one way, when it's actually the way. Now you say that the liberals are lazy which makes no sense if you had a true understanding of the word progressive. Trump is a simple man who has been an absolute failure at everything he touches. He is the Bizaro version of King Midas. Everything that once was Gold turns into shit. E.g. Fortune he inherited from his bigoted bastard of a daddy and all the businesses he EVER tried to manage. However, I will give him credit, he knows how to influence people's greed. Trump was considered a joke when he tried to align himself with the Democratic Party about 20 years ago. Trump switched after daddy had to keep his appointment with the grim reaper because little Donald was afraid of daddy Fred's wrath. When the Democrats choose a more progressive approach to modern politics, Trump ran back to the conservatives. There's nothing wrong with a different view. Trump challenged the legitimacy of the birth of the President Obama who's father in from Kenya. Although,it was false ,Trump found his base. He was able to ignite the portion of the Right wing that felt their "privilege/entitlement was going to be threaten by the progressive Left. He aligned himself with Right wing extremists such as fat ass Rush Limbaugh who has an appointment with the grim reaper in the not too distance future and Roger Ails Fox news network. Everyone knows Trump is a brainless con man who has the financial credit rating of Kermit the Frog. Trump had one Master plan, present to that portion of America that felt threaten. Give them the one thing that the democratic party couldn't offer. The opportunity to retain their white privilege/entitlement. Sure he would lie that he could stimulate the economy and provide job grown which he hasn't. He again inherited a vibrant economy which had historically lowest unemployment but Bizaro King Midas has fucked it up again. The good people of the US both liberals and conservatives fired the con man on November 3rd.
I noticed how you consistently ignore this idiotic adminstration handling of the pandemic. I guess you are going to way for good ole liberal Joe Biden to bail the country out by just listened to the science and follow the instructions of the scientific research community. Sounds better than listening to someone who wants to use ultra violet light and bleach.

If my answers frighten you, Kieran. You should cease asking scary questions.

 

[Kieran]

Kieran, You are the one who is stereotyping. Apparently my words are the God's honest truth. You see things one way, when it's actually the way. Now you say that the liberals are lazy which makes no sense if you had a true understanding of the word progressive. Trump is a simple man who has been an absolute failure at everything he touches. He is the Bizaro version of King Midas. Everything that once was Gold turns into shit. E.g. Fortune he inherited from his bigoted bastard of a daddy and all the businesses he EVER tried to manage. However, I will give him credit, he knows how to influence people's greed. Trump was considered a joke when he tried to align himself with the Democratic Party about 20 years ago. Trump switched after daddy had to keep his appointment with the grim reaper because little Donald was afraid of daddy Fred's wrath. When the Democrats choose a more progressive approach to modern politics, Trump ran back to the conservatives. There's nothing wrong with a different view. Trump challenged the legitimacy of the birth of the President Obama who's father in from Kenya. Although,it was false ,Trump found his base. He was able to ignite the portion of the Right wing that felt their "privilege/entitlement was going to be threaten by the progressive Left. He aligned himself with Right wing extremists such as fat ass Rush Limbaugh who has an appointment with the grim reaper in the not too distance future and Roger Ails Fox news network. Everyone knows Trump is a brainless con man who has the financial credit rating of Kermit the Frog. Trump had one Master plan, present to that portion of America that felt threaten. Give them the one thing that the democratic party couldn't offer. The opportunity to retain their white privilege/entitlement. Sure he would lie that he could stimulate the economy and provide job grown which he hasn't. He again inherited a vibrant economy which had historically lowest unemployment but Bizaro King Midas has fucked it up again. The good people of the US both liberals and conservatives fired the con man on November 3rd.
I noticed how you consistently ignore this idiotic adminstration handling of the pandemic. I guess you are going to way for good ole liberal Joe Biden to bail the country out by just listened to the science and follow the instructions of the scientific research community. Sounds better than listening to someone who wants to use ultra violet light and bleach.

If my answers frighten you, Kieran. You should cease asking scary questions.

This both good, and fairly amazing. Good, because you’re displaying the attributes I like about you, which is that you can give and take it and continue onwards, which is the only way, really, to take part in a public forum.

It’s fairly amazing though, because reading your post has shown me that although we’re arguing politics back and forth for almost five years, you haven’t once listened to what I’m saying. Not once. You constantly and stubbornly pigeonhole me in a wrong way which is incredible to me, really.

You think I’m defending Trump.

I find this not to be frightening in the least, but a bit rude, and a lot of time wasting. If I have to repeat to you that I would have voted Hillary last time, no matter how disgusted I would feel about it, and that I would have voted Obama in 2008 and 2012, I think my head might explode. But here you’re also highlighting nicely my complaint about tribal politics, which is what my posts in this thread over the last few days have been about.

People who are tribalists don’t listen. As I said above: they’re deaf. A noticeable ingredient of tribal thinking on the left is that anyone who disagrees with them is an immoral creature of the lowest sort, a nazi, hitler, etc. It’s because when somebody isn’t enthusiastically waving your flag you think that person is an enemy. It’s only from people on the left I get these “purity tests”. And of course it’s because you’re thinking tribally and not listening that you think you know why 71m Americans voted Trump. You dismiss them with a dishonest, and racist term - “white privilege”.

You’re not listening. You haven’t listened to me and you don’t want to listen to them, because we have the temerity to disagree with your tribe.

Brother, read my posts clearly. I am not advocating for one over the other. American politics is your business, I really don’t mind about it. What I’m addressing is tribal thinking - and in this scenario, it’s the inability of Democrats to accept that anyone else should hold an opposing view. Four years ago you all wailed like the poor unfortunate creature I posted above, and now you’re all wailing because the side you denigrated for four years as Nazis, white supremacists, bigots and the whole nasty shebang, still won’t do what you demand they should do. Even though before the election Hillary advised Biden not to concede under any circumstances, your entitlement is offended because it’s Trump taking her advice instead.

It’s amazing...

 

[britbox]

it's not just Wapo mate, other news outlets ran this too. Not sure which federal agents questioned him, but if it was the FBI he would have been compelled to tell the truth as we all know. Lying to those fellas is a crime. As so many Trump officials have declared, they are under no obligation to tell the truth to the media or twitter. It's hilarious to me that a tweet holds more credibility to you and a paper of record. But hey ho... it's no surprise

It's not just a tweet though, is it? It's the guy himself denying he recanted his claim. Yet the press couldn't even include his denial in the "story" for balance.

I'm surprised you still give some of these outlets such credibility when it comes to political reporting. It's gone so far down the toilet, that even describing half of these people as journalists is an extreme stretch. They're just actors.

 

[Kieran]

It's not just a tweet though, is it? It's the guy himself denying he recanted his claim. Yet the press couldn't even include his denial in the "story" for balance.

I'm surprised you still give some of these outlets such credibility when it comes to political reporting. It's gone so far down the toilet, that even describing half of these people as journalists is an extreme stretch. They're just actors.

It’s an issue, and not just an American issue but everywhere, how the media report things. A simple contrast between Fox and CNN, the Guardian and the Telegraph, should suffice. It’s a dilemma, trying to find out where the truth lies. Add to this the obvious tampering of social media companies in the American election and we see a clear bias at play. This in fact is much more destructive than the various press biases, because they deliberately suppressed important news during the election...

 

[britbox]

It’s an issue, and not just an American issue but everywhere, how the media report things. A simple contrast between Fox and CNN, the Guardian and the Telegraph, should suffice. It’s a dilemma, trying to find out where the truth lies. Add to this the obvious tampering of social media companies in the American election and we see a clear bias at play. This in fact is much more destructive than the various press biases, because they deliberately suppressed important news during the election...

It's always been biased, but the levels right now are off the charts - probably because the news industry has been consolidated over the years and are now controlled by a very small cabal. Not just the US Election - it's also been happening with COVID. All dissenting opinions crushed.