US Politics Thread

Federberg

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While anti-establishment factor was indeed there, it is impossible to deny Bernie has his own movement (as you yourself admit).

Bernie is not going to concede soon. He wants to debate again. This debate will be interesting with just two people and Joe often forgetting what is the current context (or who is his wife and who is his sister). If Bernie pulls a debate win, he may have a mild resurgence.

In the meantime, the establishment might want to kill all the remaining debates and perhaps use Corona virus for that purpose also. Next debate is scheduled to go on, but without audience.
I doubt he'll have much of a resurgence to be honest. I think voters want to get to the big show now. As long as Biden isn't appreciably dumber than Trump I'm not sure it matters
 
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GameSetAndMath

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I doubt he'll have much of a resurgence to be honest. I think voters want to get to the big show now. As long as Biden isn't appreciably dumber than Trump I'm not sure it matters

I think the primaries are over for all practical purposes. But, I was trying to tell you as to why Bernie won't quit immediately (especially before the debate). In all other debates everyone got a chance to talk on the average about 15 mins or less. Now with just two on stage, Bernie will have ample time to articulate his ideology and Joe will have ample time to expose his lack of coherence. But, it won't change anything.
 
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Federberg

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@britbox now that we have this corona virus economic devastation, does this change your assessment of Trump's chances in November at all? Just curious
 

britbox

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@britbox now that we have this corona virus economic devastation, does this change your assessment of Trump's chances in November at all? Just curious
Yes. I think this is going to get a whole lot worse before it gets better. How much worse remains to be seen, but I suspect its manifestation in the US is just at the beginning.
 

Murat Baslamisli

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Yes. I think this is going to get a whole lot worse before it gets better. How much worse remains to be seen, but I suspect its manifestation in the US is just at the beginning.
I think there will also be a group of folks that will subscribe to the notion of not changing horses mid stream and if this gets worse before it gets better, status quo is what traditionally people find safe.
 

GameSetAndMath

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@britbox now that we have this corona virus economic devastation, does this change your assessment of Trump's chances in November at all? Just curious

Apparently, Corona virus causes affects older people a lot. Given that Bernie has the support of youngsters, Bernie might make a turnaround.

p.s. Just kidding. But, I think this is how politicians think. :smiling-face-with-horns:
 

El Dude

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Apparently, Corona virus causes affects older people a lot. Given that Bernie has the support of youngsters, Bernie might make a turnaround.

p.s. Just kidding. But, I think this is how politicians think. :smiling-face-with-horns:

I know you jest (darkly), but the establishment will find a way to block Bernie no matter what.

To add to the dark humor, Tulsi might be the last candidate standing. Of course then the DNC would insert their corporate shill of choice; e.g. Buttigieg, Klobuchar, or even--gasp!--Hillary.

The point being, the Dem establishment and their corporate media propaganda are far more threatened by President Sanders than they are President Trump.
 
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britbox

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I know you jest (darkly), but the establishment will find a way to block Bernie no matter what.

To add to the dark humor, Tulsi might be the last candidate standing. Of course then the DNC would insert their corporate shill of choice; e.g. Buttigieg, Klobuchar, or even--gasp!--Hillary.

The point being, the Dem establishment and their corporate media propaganda are far more threatened by President Sanders than they are President Trump.

Now, that would start the mother of all conspiracy theories. :face-with-tears-of-joy:
 

El Dude

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Now, that would start the mother of all conspiracy theories. :face-with-tears-of-joy:

I pay attention to progressive circles online, and it is definitely out there. I don't think even the DNC would be that dumb, but you never know (e.g. backing a probably senile candidate).
 

Federberg

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The politics of health care in the US might change dramatically after this. You have to think this is going to be the number 2 issue on the ballot this year. Number 1 being a referendum on Trump of course..
 

El Dude

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One thing I keep trying to remind Bernie supporters (I being one) in our despair over the current primary, is that his "movement" is not over. He has immense leveraging power with Biden (or whoever the DNC anoints at the convention, if Biden's cognitive decline is accepted as the huge liability that it is). Bernie could (and should, imo) be bold and say: "I won't endorse you, Joe, unless you sign onto Medicare for All." The silver lining of the coronavirus--which isn't only about loss of lives but the damage it is already doing to the economy and societal conventions--is that it reveals just what a debacle the American economic and health care system is. This should fuel the call for significant healthcare reform, and hopefully even a re-priortization of American values from "the business of America is business" to "the business of America is serving the people."

But even more importantly: Bernie's movement is not his movement. He is merely the main figurehead. But it is a progressive movement of people wanting the government to actually do what it is supposed to do: serve the people, by the people, for the people. Crazy idea, I know.

This primary should make clear just how corrupt the political system is, and how electoral politics is a sham. The elite will elect who they want to elect, whatever it takes. But I do not think, or at least I hope, that "We the People" will not go quietly into the night.

Of course the stakes are really high: not just nationally, but globally. America's standing as world leader is frankly a joke. You can't call for reduction in fossil fuels when you're the leading cause of it. You aren't a shining city on the hill when your "light" is largely supported by the subjugation and death of millions around the world - endless wars, driving profits for the military-industrial complex. You aren't a world leader when you have millions incarcerated, half a million homeless, terrible healthcare, crumbling infracture, and increasing large sections that resemble a Third World country. People in Western Europe and Scandinavia who haven't been outside of tourist areas might be surprised to find that a large percentage of the country resembles the poorer parts of Eastern Europe, and some even South America or Africa.

Yet somehow our elite maintain a global empire, although one that is clearly crumbling.

But there might be some rough years ahead. Or as Bob Dylan said, the times they are a'changin. It might sound apocalyptic, but I think these next decades will determine whether we not only survive as a civilization, but to what degree as a species--and even as a biome.
 

Federberg

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One thing I keep trying to remind Bernie supporters (I being one) in our despair over the current primary, is that his "movement" is not over. He has immense leveraging power with Biden (or whoever the DNC anoints at the convention, if Biden's cognitive decline is accepted as the huge liability that it is). Bernie could (and should, imo) be bold and say: "I won't endorse you, Joe, unless you sign onto Medicare for All." The silver lining of the coronavirus--which isn't only about loss of lives but the damage it is already doing to the economy and societal conventions--is that it reveals just what a debacle the American economic and health care system is. This should fuel the call for significant healthcare reform, and hopefully even a re-priortization of American values from "the business of America is business" to "the business of America is serving the people."

But even more importantly: Bernie's movement is not his movement. He is merely the main figurehead. But it is a progressive movement of people wanting the government to actually do what it is supposed to do: serve the people, by the people, for the people. Crazy idea, I know.

This primary should make clear just how corrupt the political system is, and how electoral politics is a sham. The elite will elect who they want to elect, whatever it takes. But I do not think, or at least I hope, that "We the People" will not go quietly into the night.

Of course the stakes are really high: not just nationally, but globally. America's standing as world leader is frankly a joke. You can't call for reduction in fossil fuels when you're the leading cause of it. You aren't a shining city on the hill when your "light" is largely supported by the subjugation and death of millions around the world - endless wars, driving profits for the military-industrial complex. You aren't a world leader when you have millions incarcerated, half a million homeless, terrible healthcare, crumbling infracture, and increasing large sections that resemble a Third World country. People in Western Europe and Scandinavia who haven't been outside of tourist areas might be surprised to find that a large percentage of the country resembles the poorer parts of Eastern Europe, and some even South America or Africa.

Yet somehow our elite maintain a global empire, although one that is clearly crumbling.

But there might be some rough years ahead. Or as Bob Dylan said, the times they are a'changin. It might sound apocalyptic, but I think these next decades will determine whether we not only survive as a civilization, but to what degree as a species--and even as a biome.
Medicare for all is a bad policy. You simply cannot coerce workers to give up the plans they worked so hard to get. This is one of the issues I've always had with Bernie. He has no record of getting legislation through Congress and this is a prime example of it. Buttigieg had it right... health care for all who want it. The American political system was set up to be incremental when it functions at its best. Even the Civil Rights bill was incremental in nature. A lot of the legislation evolved in the decade following the bill. You have to give America the time to catch up with the politics. That said I do agree that there's a case for Sanders to push for the aims of his movement to be reflected in a Biden Administration. As for Biden's cognitive decline, it's not clear to me that there has been much of one. What we are seeing from him at the moment is pretty much par for the course from him over the last few decades. The man is a walking faux pas. I have no issue with Sanders insisting on the debate this weekend to force some commitments from Biden but he needs to be careful otherwise he'll just hand the advantage back to Trump imho
 
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El Dude

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We'll have to agree to disagree re: Medicare. But some points: For one, the problem with employer-based healthcare is that it essentially enslaves you to your employer. You lose your job, you lose your healthcare. Two, the plan will change but the doctor won't (for the most part). Three, Buttigieg's plan basically creates a two-tiered system where you have sub-par care in Medicare, and better care for those with money. Four, studies predict that MfA would save 68,000 lives and billions a year. Five, some plans are good, but most aren't and involve co-pays that add up, steep deductibles, and shifty insurance shenanigans. I had a colleague a few years ago who broke her arm and still had to pay $5K (if I remember correctly) out of pocket. That was about 15% of her yearly salary.

This is not to say that MfA is perfect, but it is far, far better than what we have. People in other countries (like yours, Federberg) don't understand what its like to go to the hospital because you're afraid of bankruptcy, or to not be able to afford life-saving medicines, or to be worried about the cost of an ambulance ($600-1000 or more) while you're in physical distress.

We'll also have to disagree on Biden, because I see a clear difference between now and four years ago. Not to mention his outright hostility: insulting and threatening people. I honestly think that the Democratic Party realizes this, and will either swap him out with another candidate at the convention, or line him up with a VP who will have a Bush-Cheney relationship with him, and possibly take over the presidency within his term. And this doesn't touch upon his actual record, which is pretty bad. As with Hillary, he's a corporate candidate that only gives lip service to progressive policies.
 

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We'll have to agree to disagree re: Medicare. For one, the problem with employer-based healthcare is that it essentially enslaves you to your employer. You lose your job, you lose your healthcare. Two, the plan will change but the doctor won't (for the most part). Three, Buttigieg's plan basically creates a two-tiered system where you have sub-par care in Medicare, and better care for those with money. Four, studies predict that MfA would save 68,000 lives and billions a year.

This is not to say that it is perfect, but is far, far better than what we have. People in other countries (like yours, Federberg) don't understand what its like to go to the hospital because you're afraid of bankruptcy, or to not be able to afford life-saving medicines.

We'll also have to disagree on Biden, because I see a clear difference between now and four years ago. Not to mention his outright hostility: insulting and threatening people. I honestly think that the Democratic Party realizes this, and will either swap him out with another candidate at the convention, or line him up with a VP who will have a Bush-Cheney relationship with him, and possibly take over the presidency within his term. And this doesn't touch upon his actual record, which is pretty bad. As with Hillary, he's a corporate candidate that only gives lip service to progressive policies.
I'm not saying that what Bernie wants is wrong. Remember I'm from the UK and we have our wonderful NHS. But there's a way to get from A to B that takes the electorate along with you. If Bernie genuinely wants to get there, there's a way to do it, and there's a way that will delay the inevitability of it. It's politics

Right or wrong Biden seems to have absorbed the Trump play book with the hostility. As long as he doesn't go crazy with it, it's not a terrible thing. As for the record of politicians, their records are all spotty mate. The question is, do you believe they'll do the same in the future or do you think they will get you where you want to go. Bernie has some good ideas, but his ability to execute and move Congress is non existent. To me this is about being able to get stuff done, not about being right. What the moment needs is the removal of Trump. First foremost and only. Sanders would be better off keeping his movement and using it to pressure a President Biden than weakening candidate Biden, that's all I'm saying. There are ways to do things in the real world
 

El Dude

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I hear you and think its a good point, but I think it is a matter of how to sell it, not whether or not to sell it. So yeah, politics. Furthermore, most states showed something like 60%, plus or minus a few percentage points, support for MfA. The people (mostly) want it.

While I think the main reasons Bernie isn't in the lead are nefarious in nature, as I outlined above, his main tactical limitation was selling his policies to older voters. But again, a lot of these folks watch cable news media and don't use the internet, so are beholden to whatever MSNBC/CNN says, and they're overwhelmingly biased against Bernie.

One of the things that makes voting for Biden palatable for me is that I don't think he'll be a continuation of his past policies. Some of that, sure, but he'll be more of an Uncle Joe figurehead. His VP pick will be very important, mostly in terms of telling us what a Biden administration would actually be like. If the Dems really want to win, they'll pick a progressive, or at least a left-leaning centrist like Warren.

I agree that "Trump Removal" is very, very important, and foremost but not "only." That's the sticking point for American progressives who believe that we also have to address the pre-Trump policies that paved the way for Trump. Another corporate Democrat doesn't inspire confidence in working class people. Biden is more probably more convincing than Hillary was, however.

But yeah, I definitely agree that Bernie should focus on leveraging his movement to push Biden more to the left rather than weakening him. But not yet. Part of the way he should leverage him is by pushing him hard and fighting to the end. For two reasons: it puts pressure on him to actually take on some of the progressive agenda, and two, it tempers him for the harder fight against Trump.
 

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Good points. Just bear in mind that a pivot needs to be made now to the elections. I don't buy the polling so much. I see those as mostly aspirational. But when the rubber hits the road what people actually want or are willing to pay for is an entirely different thing. You can ask whatever you want in a poll, but it's essentially a one dimensional framework. However in the real world people have to balance a multitude of wants, and that's where it gets tricky. 2018 is a classic illustration of where America is at the moment. It wasn't the AOC's who had the real success. It was the moderate Representatives who won in purple and red districts. Bernie is not in control of that. He needs to be smart and get out before the end. If he stays too long he's just being self serving and not really working to achieve his aims. I think his speech actually hints that he understands that. Progressives have gotten ahead of their skis is mis-reading what Americans in general want, because they have been in as much of a bubble as Trump and his base have been. The side that really sits down and sniffs which way the wind is blowing will find that the centre of American politics is still the most important and the driving force that needs to be respected. Everything we have seen in these primaries tells us that the biggest problem in 2016 was how incredibly unpopular HRC actually was. It turns out that while Bernie does have a strong loyal base it's not quite the plurality we all thought it was. Heck the biggest turn outs have been to Biden's benefit. That tells everything we need to know. I just hope Bernie and his people understand that
 
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calitennis127

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The silver lining of the coronavirus--which isn't only about loss of lives but the damage it is already doing to the economy and societal conventions--is that it reveals just what a debacle the American economic and health care system is.

This type of asinine statement is why I have no time at all for the Bernie Sanders movement. While I fully grant that the American healthcare system is less affordable than it could be (mostly because of demented government policy), calling the American health care system a "debacle" is a ridiculous exaggeration with no basis in fact or sensible relative comparisons. So the American system is a "debacle"? Okay. Compared to which countries exactly? Italy, one of Bernie's "modern industrialized countries that guarantees health care as a right"?

Allow me to reference an assessment from an established medical authority: Johns Hopkins University.

- A recent study from Johns Hopkins ranked the U.S. number ONE in the world at pandemic preparedness. If the U.S. health care system is a "debacle," then what does that say about the preparedness of every other country? Are you comparing the United States to a civilization on another planet where every creature has the healthcare of EU officials? Who exactly are you comparing the U.S. to?

- According to the Global Health Security Index established by the Johns Hopkins Center for Health Security, the U.S. scored 83.5 and ranked no. 1 in 5 of 6 categories: 1) prevention, 2) early detection and reporting, 3) rapid response and mitigation, 4) sufficient and robust health system, and 5) compliance with international norms. So if this is a "debacle," then who or what exactly are you comparing the U.S. system to?

This constant bashing of the American healthcare system is exaggerated and also focused on the wrong problems with the system. Virtually everything the Sanders movement says about it is misguided.
 

Federberg

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^Seriously??

Perhaps that Johns Hopkins study was done pre Trump defunded US pandemic preparedness. Because what we're all seeing is an absolute cluster fuck. South Korea is running rings around the US. And don't bring up your infection numbers until you actually have a testing infrastructure that isn't 3rd world at best
 

calitennis127

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^Seriously??

Perhaps that Johns Hopkins study was done pre Trump defunded US pandemic preparedness. Because what we're all seeing is an absolute cluster fuck. South Korea is running rings around the US. And don't bring up your infection numbers until you actually have a testing infrastructure that isn't 3rd world at best


What are you talking about Federberg? Give me the numbers of why the handling of this case is so horrible in the United States. 15 people dying in a nursing home in Washington state? Why is the party of euthanasia now so petrified of 92-year-olds dying from a virus?

The numbers for swine flu under Obama in 2009 were far worse and no one was screaming hysterically like this. This is clearly being used for political advantage against Trump, and Trump and that idiot Pence have stupidly caved. Instead of resisting the media hysteria they are feeding it with their sanctimonious rhetoric about saving American lives.
 
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