US Politics Thread

[mrzz]

Replying to both @GameSetAndMath and @Murat Baslamisli:

The fact that is "free" does not necessarily mean it is without regulation, control, and planning. There could well be admission tests, seriousness in control of student's performances, and good offer/demand analysis. But the principle is: education is there if you want it.

I get the point both of you are making: what people do with the education they get? By putting a financial value to it, you assume that you force them to give it its proper value. The idea behind "free" education is that education itself would be enough to teach it.

Anyway, this is a matter of principle, I guess, since we can hardly "prove" or "disprove" either approach. I received "free" college education and I can guarantee you I give it all the value in the world. But I know people who don't, naturally. We can get all possible personal examples, I guess.

I am a complete capitalist to everything that concerns the economic system, at least in an "immediate" sense. In other words, I believe in free enterprise. However, I do not believe that the "market" is able to naturally control anything which needs too many economic "cycles" to have its effects tangible, as it is the case of education. The "market" cannot efficiently control how much one must pay for his own education.

 

[GameSetAndMath]

Replying to both @GameSetAndMath and @Murat Baslamisli:

I received "free" college education and I can guarantee you I give it all the value in the world. But I know people who don't, naturally.

You misunderstood the whole point. You received free education and I believe that you gave all the value in the world. The reason (at least one of the reasons) is that you knew other people were paying for it where as you got some sort of scholarship (whether merit based or means based or merit-cum-means based) and so it is very easy for you to put value to it. I am no way against providing scholarship to poor people or people performing well. I am against making it free for all.

If everybody gets it free, then it is difficult for most people to associate value to it despite the fact that it has value. As a result many would not value it. One of the problems of education is that you need to be educated to understand the value of education and so one may not attach value to it before getting educated.

 

[GameSetAndMath]

On a slightly different topic, I think there should be a serious operation to delink degrees from jobs. At least in the USA, there is some of sort of stigma about not getting college education. As a result, people who don't want to be educated also are kind of forced to go to college.

But in some other countries, (like Germany for example), there is an alternate route of professional training without the regular college education. They go on to make decent living and are well respected members of the society. Actually, some of them make more money than college graduates also. I think a plumber makes about $100 per hour and I guess his net income will be more than what a BA in Philosophy can get. I agree money is not everything.

Sometimes a college degree is used to weed out applicants from a large pool, even though the degree may be irrelevant to the job. We should delink this association of degrees with jobs and also restore "respect" for people who are not college educated. That would ensure that only people interested in education would go to college. That would also ensure that one does not graduate with specialization in "Women's studies" and come out with $100,000 debt, unless one really wanted to do that.

 

[mrzz]

You misunderstood the whole point. You received free education and I believe that you gave all the value in the world. The reason (at least one of the reasons) is that you knew other people were paying for it where as you got some sort of scholarship (whether merit based or means based or merit-cum-means based) and so it is very easy for you to put value to it. I am no way against providing scholarship to poor people or people performing well. I am against making it free for all.

If everybody gets it free, then it is difficult for most people to associate value to it despite the fact that it has value. As a result many would not value it. One of the problems of education is that you need to be educated to understand the value of education and so one may not attach value to it before getting educated.

You introduced a fine point with the distinction of giving value to education before and after you get it. That thickens the plot, even if someone who is eligible to college is not a completely uneducated person.

But I can go back to my own example: I really received completely free education. Universities here, at my time, were mostly public and free, all you needed to do was to pass the admission test. In my case (physics) it was very very easy to get in, as nobody wanted to study it. It was not easy to get out though, from 80 who got in, I was one the four who graduated in regular time (I would say that another 8 graduated later on). Part of the reason to that is migration from physics to engineering courses, but still a lot of people left along the way, (which I guess reinforces your point). On the other hand, it also shows that it is possible that, even being completely free, people can still give value to it. So, yes, I agree that this, in principle, leads to a number of people not taking it seriously enough. Only thing is that I believe there are other ways to correct this than to simply charge the students. However, I come from a country with far less average income than the US and most European countries, so I am biased, as I just think of some friends of mine who would have struggled massively to pay for their education (and believe me, those guys gave value to their education).

 

[Murat Baslamisli]

I myself had a free university education. Business admin. My parents thought it was a good idea. I would never have have chosen that knowing what I know now
Scholarships and quotas aside, if you see the long term return and value in your education, you understand why you are paying for it. If you are studying to become a doctor, a lawyer, something tangible like that , you know what your future income may be, at least you have an idea. The payment for THAT education is justified. But if you are studying in arts and humanities and taking Communist Ballet Theory, it may as well be free because you will not be contributing in any meaningful way to society beyond serving them their fries, which is respectable in its own way.
Let me put it this way. Citations are a major indication of academic ability and success of your papers . Over 80% of papers coming out of the Humanities are not even cited once ! They are useless fields and should be scrapped all together but if you are going to keep them, might as well make it free so young blue haired socialist SJWs can have fun and extend their puberties a bit longer before reality hits.
Wait, I changed my mind. We should make the STEM fields plus law free...These people will actually contribute to the society. Charge the Humanities through the nose ! They deserve it !

 

[Federberg]

I think there's a case to be made for free education, but there should be limits on it. There was a time, not too long ago, in the UK where folks were getting university degrees for cooking (any cooks here, don't get on my case, my point is that some sort of vocational course could suffice for this), and all sorts of other bizarre courses. If you take a step back and look at it with an economics 101 eye, it is clear that the proliferation of courses like these signalled that there was a mis-pricing in the market. There's a balance to be had. For example you could have nationwide assessments for what skills shortages exist and subsidise those degrees, until such time as the skills shortage goes away. Some sort of smart market solution could be implemented. Over and above that, applying a higher income tax rate... say for a decade.. for those who get subsidised higher education might be in order. But for sure, I don't think it's as simple as not assisting those who can't afford it. Society would be the big loser if that were the case

 

[Horsa]

I think there's a case to be made for free education, but there should be limits on it. There was a time, not too long ago, in the UK where folks were getting university degrees for cooking (any cooks here, don't get on my case, my point is that some sort of vocational course could suffice for this), and all sorts of other bizarre courses. If you take a step back and look at it with an economics 101 eye, it is clear that the proliferation of courses like these signalled that there was a mis-pricing in the market. There's a balance to be had. For example you could have nationwide assessments for what skills shortages exist and subsidise those degrees, until such time as the skills shortage goes away. Some sort of smart market solution could be implemented. Over and above that, applying a higher income tax rate... say for a decade.. for those who get subsidised higher education might be in order. But for sure, I don't think it's as simple as not assisting those who can't afford it. Society would be the big loser if that were the case

You want us to go back to the days of college, Y.T.S's or get a job straight away then like it was when I left. I'm 1 of those who couldn't afford proper college so I did 2 years Y.T.S. & I found it very good as I was getting the best of both world's (work experience & written homework + days in centre & assessments in the work-place). In some parts of the U.K. there are 2 ways into certain jobs, the teenage (full-time college) route & the adult (part-time adult education centre which is cheaper than full-time college) route & if you're in a work-place doing a lesser job & the manager likes you & realises you've got potential & teaches you a few things him/herself, there's another route into certain jobs. I did a retail N.V.Q. through the Y.T.S. scheme & was liked in my work-places so learnt to do some management jobs like financial paperwork which made it possible for me to take the adult route into admin & I've now been given the option of taking the adult route into accountancy or going into teaching adults how to use P.C.'s. No-one looks down on me & I've got plenty of options.

 

[Federberg]

You want us to go back to the days of college, Y.T.S's or get a job straight away then like it was when I left. I'm 1 of those who couldn't afford proper college so I did 2 years Y.T.S. & I found it very good as I was getting the best of both world's (work experience & written homework + days in centre & assessments in the work-place). In some parts of the U.K. there are 2 ways into certain jobs, the teenage (full-time college) route & the adult (part-time adult education centre which is cheaper than full-time college) route & if you're in a work-place doing a lesser job & the manager likes you & realises you've got potential & teaches you a few things him/herself, there's another route into certain jobs. I did a retail N.V.Q. through the Y.T.S. scheme & was liked in my work-places so learnt to do some management jobs like financial paperwork which made it possible for me to take the adult route into admin & I've now been given the option of taking the adult route into accountancy or going into teaching adults how to use P.C.'s. No-one looks down on me & I've got plenty of options.

I'm not sure where you got that from what I wrote..

 

[Horsa]

I'm not sure where you got that from what I wrote..

O.K. The links are:-

You spoke about some subjects only requiring vocational qualifications. Y.T.S.'s were ways of gaining vocational qualifications so to bring them back would do away with vocational degree subjects which weren't available when I was younger. You also mentioned skills shortages in some areas & the fact that these areas could be subsidised or made cheaper to make them more desirable for people to go into. I was just mentioning that in some areas with huge skills shortages a cheaper way in was already available. You were also mentioning how things are in Britain. That may be how things are in your area but it's not how things are where I am.

I will admit that I went the long route to get to the point & got wordy & personal. There is always a link between what's being said & what I say though sometimes it's very subtle or sometimes I start off relevant, say something similar which is irrelevant & bring something relevant back in.

Besides, as some people appear to think that people who for whatever reason haven't gone to college are daft or totally uneducated I thought I could get away with acting daft.

 

[Federberg]

O.K. The links are:-

You spoke about some subjects only requiring vocational qualifications. Y.T.S.'s were ways of gaining vocational qualifications so to bring them back would do away with vocational degree subjects which weren't available when I was younger. You also mentioned skills shortages in some areas & the fact that these areas could be subsidised or made cheaper to make them more desirable for people to go into. I was just mentioning that in some areas with huge skills shortages a cheaper way in was already available. You were also mentioning how things are in Britain. That may be how things are in your area but it's not how things are where I am.

I will admit that I went the long route to get to the point & got wordy & personal. There is always a link between what's being said & what I say though sometimes it's very subtle or sometimes I start off relevant, say something similar which is irrelevant & bring something relevant back in.

Besides, as some people appear to think that people who for whatever reason haven't gone to college are daft or totally uneducated I thought I could get away with acting daft.

I'm not sure I ever brought up bringing back YTS.
You've made a number of misrepresentations about what I've said, you seem to have an agenda of your own, which is fine. Let's just say we disagree and leave it at that.

But feel free to tell us what you believe regarding free university education. Not sure it's clear to me yet where you're coming from...

 

[Horsa]

I'm not sure I ever brought up bringing back YTS.
You've made a number of misrepresentations about what I've said, you seem to have an agenda of your own, which is fine. Let's just say we disagree and leave it at that.

But feel free to tell us what you believe regarding free university education. Not sure it's clear to me yet where you're coming from...

You didn't but as you mentioned some of the new university courses were vocationally based & you thought vocational qualifications would solve this & Y.T.S.'s offered this I thought that this would be an option. I didn't misinterpret what you said & never have an agenda. I will gladly agree to disagree but don't think I've actually either agreed or disagreed with anything you've actually said. I think that I've made myself very clear. O.K. I will tell you what I think about the subject in question.

 

[Federberg]

^look it’s clear from your last post that you don’t understand the macro point I was making. So please let’s just move on..

 

[Horsa]

^look it’s clear from your last post that you don’t understand the macro point I was making. So please let’s just move on..

I more than understand what you were saying (which was that there are some pointless university courses which should be classed as vocational & people should be encouraged to learn useful skills which are important as the country is short of people with these skills, other than that they should pay) but am already moving on. You didn't understand me either. I was already typing out my response when you responded.

 

[Horsa]

I think that although money is important & we're living in a capitalist society that it shouldn't mean more than lives or how people are treated as it's just a means of exchange at the end of the day although we all need it. We haven't always had it. People bartered goods & services before then which they found out wasn't a good idea. In a utopian world no one would need money as we'd all get on & share everything peacefully. However, we don't live in a utopian world. I think the lives of people & animals should be more important than money & people shouldn't be treated like dirt if they don't have much money which they do. Money can't buy the most important things in life like health & happiness (though it helps by paying for health-care & material things that make some people happy). I think that it's wrong that some people get classed as stupid & uneducated because they didn't go to college for whatever reason without listening to circumstances & that they don't get the chances others do although for some jobs there are 2 routes into them, the teenage route & the adult route although I can't really complain about this because I've never experienced it. (I've been given other chances & have been told I'd have to go back to college which I never went to in the 1st place. I explained that & normally got people staring at me saying "you must be joking right". I've had people suggesting I learn to teach & have had some teaching experience so I guess I've been lucky.) I realise that everyone needs money & everything has to be paid for. It has been said that paying for education makes people value it more but I've known it the other way. I've known some people with money to just throw it around while other people struggle to make ends meet although they're trying their best (not me but I know it happens) & just do what they like & think they can get away with anything & treat others like dirt. I've also known people with college educations do worse jobs than people without. I don't think everyone should have a college education as I don't think it would benefit everyone but rather than being on an ability to pay basis should work on a meritocratic basis except for pleasure courses rather than necessary skills ones such as languages, sciences, technology & maths. I also think useless courses should be banned except for people who can afford to pay.​

 

[GameSetAndMath]

^look it’s clear from your last post that you don’t understand the macro point I was making. So please let’s just move on..

You both must have got free education from your levels of comprehension of each other's posts.

On a related note, just today it was announced that the officials uncovered a major scandal in admissions into elite universities in USA involving lies, bribes and plain cheating.

 

[Federberg]

You both must have got free education from your levels of comprehension of each other's posts.

On a related note, just today it was announced that the officials uncovered a major scandal in admissions into elite universities in USA involving lies, bribes and plain cheating.

Lol! My point was her focus on my aside about vocational courses entirely misses the point. It’s simply an illustration that shows market mis-pricing. If prices are imposed from the top down and you see a supply surplus then it’s evidence of over pricing. If you see a deficit then in supply then it’s under pricing. Hence my reference to economics 101.

Yes I was reading about the scandal. I actually assumed that it might have inspired this direction on the thread

 

[Horsa]

You both must have got free education from your levels of comprehension of each other's posts.

On a related note, just today it was announced that the officials uncovered a major scandal in admissions into elite universities in USA involving lies, bribes and plain cheating.

I understood what he had to say easily but sometimes people just see what they want to see + sometimes I see things in all ways possible & see things the wrong way to see what other people have to say. At other times I've only been able to see certain things because of my sight. There have been times I've acted daft to get out of things like when I was accused of doing something I knew I hadn't done & found arguing was a waste of time or I've thought people thought I was daft so I'd act as daft as they thought I was. Lol.

I think that's disgusting.

 

[Horsa]

Lol! My point was her focus on my aside about vocational courses entirely misses the point. It’s simply an illustration that shows market mis-pricing. If prices are imposed from the top down and you see a supply surplus then it’s evidence of over pricing. If you see a deficit then in supply then it’s under pricing. Hence my reference to economics 101.

Yes I was reading about the scandal. I actually assumed that it might have inspired this direction on the thread

Lol. I know & understand. I realise that I went O.T.T. & chose not to see your points as a whole. I also realise that I acted like a complete idiot by not actually addressing everything but a lot of people don't address everything & acting like a spoilt brat. Sometimes I don't address everything to try to keep things short as I've been told about long posts sometimes. Like I said though, I thought I'm supposed to be daft so I'll act daft as I can get away with it. I realise that it's an immature attitude to have & I'll have to get out of it. I also realise that this may make it appear that I'm being or trying to be manipulative when I'm not. It also makes people wonder why I can't or won't see sense sometimes especially as some people realise that sometimes it's not the case of I can't understand something but I don't want to understand it. If I could make my acting daft look funny that would be different as people would think I was just having a laugh & join in.

 

[britbox]

When something is given out free, people don't take it seriously. Giving out for free would lead to huge bad quality of incoming classes and also will lead to bad attitude by them towards education and the effort they put in it.

That's because you're purely associating cost with value. That's a fools errand.

You deal with the bad quality of incoming classes by raising the bar of entry... I'm not actually stating that everything should be free, but it shouldn't be crippling either... which is what it is for many students.

I'm not adverse to students footing a bill when they earn a certain level of income but the bills are getting ridiculous to begin with... and there are too many students at college doing non-descript courses, and racking up debt when they shouldn't be there in the first place.

Education has been monetized across the board at so many levels. It's gone to the extent where it's often more about making money than providing an education. Have standards risen significantly? I'd say no...

 

[mrzz]

Lots good posts I want to reply to but just dropped by to comment that today Trump and Bolsonaro (Brazil new's president, the missing link between humans and... and.. hell, I can't find a proper animal) will meet today in the US. To my good fellow posters over there: watch out for changes in Trump. Probably for the very worst (but there is a always a chance he suddenly feels like "wow, this guy loves me and is really sick, maybe I should change something...).