UK Politics Thread

[britbox]

I didn't misrepresent what you said? I quoted your own words... anyway, feels like arguing about who picked the colour of the wallpaper while the house is burning down.

Anyway, my main point is that not enough is being done done to address the issue of islamic extremism at source and the culprits are given license to preach it.

 

[Federberg]

I didn't misrepresent what you said? I quoted your own words... anyway, feels like arguing about who picked the colour of the wallpaper while the house is burning down.

Anyway, my main point is that not enough is being done done to address the issue of islamic extremism at source and the culprits are given license to preach it.

ok, I'll take your word for it that you don't understand the difference between what I actually said and what you claim I said

I don't disagree that more can be done. In my view hate speech should be prosecuted aggressively, but we have to accept that there is a balancing act in a free society. I'm not one who believes in giving up the very freedoms these monsters hate us for having. I'll never forget how the surveillance laws which were put in place to counter terrorism started to be used by local councils to catch people who were skipping their council tax. The moment you give governments more power over us the more tyrannical they get

 

[Nekro]

in a free society it's not incumbent on a community to take up against members of their group that do terrible things.

You cannot make the entire muslim community responsible for the bad apples.

I'm pro common sense

But I will observe that in a free society it's not incumbent on a community to take up against members of their group that do terrible things.

What free society are you talking about? It's getting business as usual that you can't draw muslim related stuff because you're gonna get murdered, women can't get on mini skirts because they will be insulted, molested or raped, You're not free to gather to celebrate anything cause some muslim person will run down and massacre you.

So where is that famous free society?

It's a religion ffs. In this age all other religions are a form of relaxation and relief from everyday stress, religious organizations are working on helping people, healing people, feeding people.

And what comes from islamic majority countries from their homelands? Gruesome executions and terror. What comes from them in the western countries? Intimidation, molestation, hate speech and murder.

The common sense thing is actually to blame the WHOLE muslim community. They should have fixed the rotten apples long ago.

 

[britbox]

ok, I'll take your word for it that you don't understand the difference between what I actually said and what you claim I said

I don't disagree that more can be done. In my view hate speech should be prosecuted aggressively, but we have to accept that there is a balancing act in a free society. I'm not one who believes in giving up the very freedoms these monsters hate us for having. I'll never forget how the surveillance laws which were put in place to counter terrorism started to be used by local councils to catch people who were skipping their council tax. The moment you give governments more power over us the more tyrannical they get

I remember a pensioner getting arrested under an anti-terrorism act for heckling Tony Blair, so I take your point. However, I don't think you need to bring in new laws to tackle this problem, there are existing laws you can use to bring these fanatics to the book. It's laughable how these marchers chant "British police burn in hell" and yet expect full protection from them. Anjem Choudary was spouting this shit for 10 years before he finally got sent down... god knows how many people he radicalised.

In an earlier post I made it clear that most muslims were law-abiding citizens, so I'm not tarnishing the whole community, which you seemed to suggest. Nobody reasonable has a problem with a law abiding muslim. It's the fanatics that should not be tolerated, not by their own community and not by the wider community at large. They are playing the system - even Arjem Choudary has admitted that. Unfortunately well-meaning people don't seem to get the memo that some of these groups are literally taking the piss. They are so concerned about looking fair and reasonable that they are in danger of making the problem far worse by tolerating it.

 

[Nekro]

Bringing free society and our concepts of a free society is very foolish here. These people made it clear they don't want freedom

Lol and then some people are talking about free society. These people want none of that. They want their fascist bs to take over the world.

Islam is gonna get banned btw, it needs to get banned asap or we're really going to hell, actually we're halfway there. This new wave or robbers, criminals and rapists was the last nail in the coffin of either islam or christian civilisation in Europe.

These new migrants are not real refugees. They are economic/religious migrants, maybe with 1-2 refugees too but they're not the majority. They got rid of their papers so the poor eastern european countries wouldn't be the first place of refuge where they got registered. They clearly went for the rich western european countries, these "refugees".

Lol i saw the London mayor was mourning with his hand in his pocket, he was clearly shaken.


BTW it's clear these people don't feel parts of the host country, when would a real UK citizen chant "UK go to hell"?

The totally messed up media ruined everything in that country, i don't even know if it can be fixed.

Like the cold war idiocy, some UK people really believe Russians, who share even the same linguistic, genetic and all kinds of roots with the Brits are the real enemy and the muslims who are sending them to hell and murdering them are their friends. You really have to be brainwashed or stupid for that.

 

[britbox]

The thing with Russia is that Western Europe and the States were indoctrinated with the "anti-Soviet/anti-Russian" message throughout the cold war. We were all brought up to believe they were the bad guys - brainwashed if you like. It takes at least a couple of generations for that to filter out.

 

[Federberg]

I remember a pensioner getting arrested under an anti-terrorism act for heckling Tony Blair, so I take your point. However, I don't think you need to bring in new laws to tackle this problem, there are existing laws you can use to bring these fanatics to the book. It's laughable how these marchers chant "British police burn in hell" and yet expect full protection from them. Anjem Choudary was spouting this shit for 10 years before he finally got sent down... god knows how many people he radicalised.

In an earlier post I made it clear that most muslims were law-abiding citizens, so I'm not tarnishing the whole community, which you seemed to suggest. Nobody reasonable has a problem with a law abiding muslim. It's the fanatics that should not be tolerated, not by their own community and not by the wider community at large. They are playing the system - even Arjem Choudary has admitted that. Unfortunately well-meaning people don't seem to get the memo that some of these groups are literally taking the piss. They are so concerned about looking fair and reasonable that they are in danger of making the problem far worse by tolerating it.

Choudary was a special case. He's a practicising solicitor and new the laws and how to game them. I may well end up depending liberal principles a lot on this forum, but I'm far from it. I just recognise that a lot of the things that would be useful tools in this modern world can be turned against us by our own government. I tend to think that lot of people seem to forget what we're supposed to be about in the west. Our civilisation is based upon personal freedoms, if we allow the a-holes to persuade us to surrender our liberties we've lost. For me, at my core, I want to minimise the ability of the State to mess with my financial and social liberty. I want the State to be as small as possible. There are natural compromises that need to be made to achieve that

 

[britbox]

Choudary was a special case. He's a practicising solicitor and new the laws and how to game them. I may well end up depending liberal principles a lot on this forum, but I'm far from it. I just recognise that a lot of the things that would be useful tools in this modern world can be turned against us by our own government. I tend to think that lot of people seem to forget what we're supposed to be about in the west. Our civilisation is based upon personal freedoms, if we allow the a-holes to persuade us to surrender our liberties we've lost. For me, at my core, I want to minimise the ability of the State to mess with my financial and social liberty. I want the State to be as small as possible. There are natural compromises that need to be made to achieve that

I think you can do both. Nail the extremists without impinging on the freedoms of the vast majority.

 

[Federberg]

I agree, we can do both. But the problem is that the in both the US and the UK, there is a tendency of the State to want to gather more and more powers for it's own sake. If narrow laws were put in, I wouldn't have a problem with it. But whether you look at the military industrial complex in the US, or what we have in the UK government (as distinct from parliament), any new law is likely to be co-opted by the State to extend it's power

 

[mrzz]

@Federberg, I @agree with most of your points here -- and by the way forgive me to enter the discussion, since I am a foreigner and things are happening at your home soil -- but there is a distinction I guess you can make:

While I agree that you cannot blame a community, and it is very hard to judge the position of a community in such cases (you´re example of anti-rape protests was a very good one), there is one thing you can do: blame the "institutions" (and I purposely use a word you and I respect).

There are religious institutions, there are Muslim states, and that is their job. I share with you the unwillingness to point fingers, but I accept that fingers will be pointed in the end (and maybe we actually should, anyway this is another discussion). Given that, it is better that at least we point them in the right direction. To say the least, a lot of people are talking (screaming) in the name of Islam. It is too much to ask for the ordinary people to respond to that (and I am pretty sure a lot of them do, to their own great personal risks), but is far less difficult for a "institution" (in the broad sense I am using it) to make a stand.

Regarding political correctness, while again I see your point, specially in the heat of the moment, I do not think this is a secondary discussion. The price we pay with political correctness is that we have difficulty to address to important -- and thus delicate -- issues.

Even making a concession to a point Moxie always raise -- that most people do not understand the concept and have a naive notion of what it actually means (which, in politics, is not that relevant) -- fact is that one tragic real world consequence of political correctness is the suppression of important discussions. People refrain from discussing why Islam faith seem to be related to so many problems in fear of being labelled haters, racists, fascists or whatever world you want. This is particularly true for the politicians. Not only this is a problem in itself, but it also opens a space to the most vocal ones -- which use to radicalize their positions -- to voice the hidden concerns of a lot of people (Trump benefited a bit from that).

 

[Federberg]

@Federberg, I @agree with most of your points here -- and by the way forgive me to enter the discussion, since I am a foreigner and things are happening at your home soil -- but there is a distinction I guess you can make:

While I agree that you cannot blame a community, and it is very hard to judge the position of a community in such cases (you´re example of anti-rape protests was a very good one), there is one thing you can do: blame the "institutions" (and I purposely use a word you and I respect).

There are religious institutions, there are Muslim states, and that is their job. I share with you the unwillingness to point fingers, but I accept that fingers will be pointed in the end (and maybe we actually should, anyway this is another discussion). Given that, it is better that at least we point them in the right direction. To say the least, a lot of people are talking (screaming) in the name of Islam. It is too much to ask for the ordinary people to respond to that (and I am pretty sure a lot of them do, to their own great personal risks), but is far less difficult for a "institution" (in the broad sense I am using it) to make a stand.

Regarding political correctness, while again I see your point, specially in the heat of the moment, I do not think this is a secondary discussion. The price we pay with political correctness is that we have difficulty to address to important -- and thus delicate -- issues.

Even making a concession to a point Moxie always raise -- that most people do not understand the concept and have a naive notion of what it actually means (which, in politics, is not that relevant) -- fact is that one tragic real world consequence of political correctness is the suppression of important discussions. People refrain from discussing why Islam faith seem to be related to so many problems in fear of being labelled haters, racists, fascists or whatever world you want. This is particularly true for the politicians. Not only this is a problem in itself, but it also opens a space to the most vocal ones -- which use to radicalize their positions -- to voice the hidden concerns of a lot of people (Trump benefited a bit from that).

I do agree that whatever can be done should be done. Let me ask you a question.. the rise of anti-semitism that we see in the West... I'm a Christian.. or at least I was brought up as one. I remember as a kid, I found myself, when reading the new testament loathing the Jews because of the actions of the Pharisees. It was only when I was old enough to think critically that I actually questioned my feelings. I honestly believe that the genesis of anti-semitism in the West can be found in the new testament. Should Churches be coming out and rallying more forcefully about attacks against Jewish institutions? Is Christianity itself complicit? It's a difficult issue. It is easy to say that the root of terrorism is Islam, and most people take it for-granted and don't question that view, but I love what President George W Bush said about it. This is NOT about religion, it is about a political/philosophical viewpoint. To characterise this as a religious conflict is to play into the hands of the terrorists and on the other side extremists like Bannon. Otherwise it really does become a crusade and will suck in the entire Middle East against the West. I refuse to do that. This has more to do with the complicity of Western governments interfering in Middle Eastern politics for their own self interest. Look at the likes of the Saudi Royal family, Mubarak, Sadam Hussein etc. Is it any wonder the ordinary people in these countries loathe us? We have wilfully supported tyrants who have subjugated their own people and this is what we get for it, I hope the oil was worth it. Am I happy with the tactics these terrorists are employing? Absolutely not! But, to compound our initial errors in their homelands by turning this into some sort of global religious conflict would be worse than stupid. If these people were allowed to make their own choices, develop their economies and feel confidence in the dignity of the future of their children I have real doubts about whether we would be seeing so much terrorist activity.

With regards to political correctness, I think the rebellion against it has become a catch all to permit a lot of pseudo-racist commentary. While I won't impugn most people with the racism tag, I do think there is a lot of extremely lazy thinking. On these forums a lot of people accept that Russia has been unfairly treated by the West (I happen to be one of those who happen to believe this). But does that mean that we shouldn't hold Russia accountable for anything? Not in my view. I'm fascinated by what I see coming out of Russia at the moment, Putin is an extremely clever man. He's smart enough to have constructed a narrative to justify his position, and he seems to have done that partly by co-opting a lot of white supremacist garbage that many conservatives in the West are supportive of. Good for him I guess, but I for one am not buying it. To dismiss everything that might be tagged as politically correct without assessing the moral dimension to it is weak thinking. We should be better than that. I do agree that we shouldn't get all weepy about blunt descriptions the way liberals do, but this is not about political correctness here. It's about a lazy and dangerous mis-characterisation of what is going on with the terrorism we're seeing today

 

[Nekro]

I do agree that whatever can be done should be done. Let me ask you a question.. the rise of anti-semitism that we see in the West... I'm a Christian.. or at least I was brought up as one. I remember as a kid, I found myself, when reading the new testament loathing the Jews because of the actions of the Pharisees. It was only when I was old enough to think critically that I actually questioned my feelings. I honestly believe that the genesis of anti-semitism in the West can be found in the new testament. Should Churches be coming out and rallying more forcefully about attacks against Jewish institutions? Is Christianity itself complicit? It's a difficult issue. It is easy to say that the root of terrorism is Islam, and most people take it for-granted and don't question that view, but I love what President George W Bush said about it. This is NOT about religion, it is about a political/philosophical viewpoint. To characterise this as a religious conflict is to play into the hands of the terrorists and on the other side extremists like Bannon. Otherwise it really does become a crusade and will suck in the entire Middle East against the West. I refuse to do that. This has more to do with the complicity of Western governments interfering in Middle Eastern politics for their own self interest. Look at the likes of the Saudi Royal family, Mubarak, Sadam Hussein etc. Is it any wonder the ordinary people in these countries loathe us? We have wilfully supported tyrants who have subjugated their own people and this is what we get for it, I hope the oil was worth it. Am I happy with the tactics these terrorists are employing? Absolutely not! But, to compound our initial errors in their homelands by turning this into some sort of global religious conflict would be worse than stupid. If these people were allowed to make their own choices, develop their economies and feel confidence in the dignity of the future of their children I have real doubts about whether we would be seeing so much terrorist activity.

With regards to political correctness, I think the rebellion against it has become a catch all to permit a lot of pseudo-racist commentary. While I won't impugn most people with the racism tag, I do think there is a lot of extremely lazy thinking. On these forums a lot of people accept that Russia has been unfairly treated by the West (I happen to be one of those who happen to believe this). But does that mean that we shouldn't hold Russia accountable for anything? Not in my view. I'm fascinated by what I see coming out of Russia at the moment, Putin is an extremely clever man. He's smart enough to have constructed a narrative to justify his position, and he seems to have done that partly by co-opting a lot of white supremacist garbage that many conservatives in the West are supportive of. Good for him I guess, but I for one am not buying it. To dismiss everything that might be tagged as politically correct without assessing the moral dimension to it is weak thinking. We should be better than that. I do agree that we shouldn't get all weepy about blunt descriptions the way liberals do, but this is not about political correctness here. It's about a lazy and dangerous mis-characterisation of what is going on with the terrorism we're seeing today

lol at all the stuff about mischaracterization and philosophical thinking.

The only part where i agree with you is that the west meddled too much in the middle east. Yes i'm aware of that. The west shouldn't have meddled in the middle east.

On the other hand we have a crisis situation here that has to be solved. Lots of people poured in here and many are/were dangerous, they attacked and murdered our people, they are slapping and kicking our women (even fully clothed ones). They are threatening our people and our culture.

So in a situation like this ofc people who care about European people and culture are looking for allies. Eastern Europe felt they got left alone in the trouble by Germany and other west european countries, ofc many are turning to Russia where they see stability and order. The muslim criminals don't get away with stuff there that they do in western europe.


And ofc the little wars began. Like look at what you just did. You attacked the Bible and Christianity. You're implying that Christianity is anti-semitic. What's the practical use of comments like this in our current crisis with the muslim invaders?

1. Christians are not committing terror attacks against the Jews.

2. In Christian countries Jews are in the highests positions everywhere. Can you say the same about Christians in Muslim countries?


So you again took sides. You attacked your own culture and own religion in a feeble attempt to defend the muslim terrorists, or at least to make them look better.

Then you tried to deflect responsibility from them by accusing western politics. (I even agree partly with this, however, in this case i find it annoying because all the rest of your points were just anti-christian and muslim supporting too.)

Then again you accuse Russians of being white supremacist? or at least being supportive of white supremacism???? WTF is that bs?

Russia is not only ideologically better for most eastern european countries, Russia is also useful to these countries. While all the news is about Western Europe spending tons on money on eastern european countries, the EU is actually fining the crap out of these countries and crippling them with unfair regulations at the same time. With Russia these countries are making smooth and rewarding deals, so Russia is a great business partner too in addition to being great ideological support.

So how the heck can white supremacism be brought into this? And it's not the first time you did this.

Anyway, it's easy to decide who's on which side, like most politically correct hindrances to saving our culture you're posing too as someone thinking deeply and critically, at the same time you're drawing unfair and ridiculous parallels between Christianity and Islam, etc etc. It's easy to decide whose side you're on in the crisis. And it's not the Christian side with the conservative European values.

I wish in that huge long post of yours you had made only one point to question or condemn the acts of the radical islamists....

 

[Nekro]

Just lol at these geniuses http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-39396578

So the nutter used WhatsApp 2 minutes before the attack, sherlocking in what's app will solve all the problems Nutter will just not use WhatsApp 2 minutes before the attack and even if he does it won't make any difference lol

These mugs are just bsing ard, evading the real problem.


BTW it's very logical these nutters who wanna murder people convert to islam. From the islamic state and other jihadist organizations the bloody and cruel murder videos are pouring in. They make it more "legit" for nutters to go ahead and make their fantasies come true. "Wow, there are others into this sick bs, and i'm gonna get props from the other sceners, it's legit too, there are spooks out there with "the real holocaust is coming" threats and no one's doing anything about it, yay " oh wait, they're gonna sherlock WhatsApp

 

[mrzz]

I managed again to lose a long post I wrote just after the F1 race (which end 3:30 AM here on Sunday). Let me see what I can salvage from that:

Excellent points, @Federberg, and I wish I had more time to dedicate to this debate. Before I answer/comment some specific points, I would like to make a general remark, about which we seem to disagree, but I guess in the end we won´t. I believe that this whole issue has in itself all the three basic dimensions of politics, economics and religion. Good part of the reason why people struggle to find consensus is because they might be focusing on different things. Intertwined with the political aspect, we still have historical issues -- and in this era where everyone has his own truth, it becomes impossible to reach an understanding.

...Should Churches be coming out and rallying more forcefully about attacks against Jewish institutions? Is Christianity itself complicit? It's a difficult issue.

It is a very good question and I appreciate that you asked it. Nekro´s response on the subject (and I hope I get to reply to some points he raised) show how "touchy" such subjects are. This is, in essence, a "politically incorrect" question, because in the part I did not quote you question parts of the Bible -- and had you questioned other holy books in similar terms you surely be labelled with a lot of tags, and would not be able to carry the conversation forward in most politically active circles. The Bible, in both new and old testaments (specially the old), has a lot of passages which are beyond absurd if you take them literally. This is, of course, well known. Even taking your anti-semitism point in consideration (and it is a very good one), fact is that we do not have armies around the world decapitating people using the Bible as justification (and they could find if they wanted). Of course there´s a lot of social context to be considered that partially explain this, but still this is precisely the point were I would expect/want the Muslim "institutions" to intervene.

This is NOT about religion, it is about a political/philosophical viewpoint

I largely agree that religion is not root cause, but as it used as an excuse by parties on all possible sides, it becomes part of the question. It seems more "real world" the assume that there is someone playing with other people beliefs (but, again, this is reason enough to include religion in the conversation). But there could be more to that. Maybe people who do not care that much about religion (which is my case, I have zero care for it) simply cannot fully understand the role it can play.

I refuse to do that.

We might debate here and there, but that´s the attitude.

Is it any wonder the ordinary people in these countries loathe us?

Being South American, I know this too well. It is true that some people here (and there) use this as an excuse, but this is surely true to a large extent. The cruel part of it is that the people who suffer the consequences would blame all Americans and Europeans for what just a few are doing. In today´s world, I guess that societies will need to pay attention to what their governments and companies are doing in the other side of the world.

With regards to political correctness, I think the rebellion against it has become a catch all to permit a lot of pseudo-racist commentary

I do not think this is a problem. I rather have people screaming (or writing) their hate than actually killing each other. I know you run some risks by giving free speech such a pass, but at least this way people go out in the open and give law enforcement a better chance to react. Anything is better than random people bursting out all of a sudden (which is what happens when they are not allowed to voice their prejudices).

When you allow -- and react rationally -- to racist commentary, you have at least a chance to educate -- or to show people other ways. Some cases are "lost", sure, they would be anyway. Expose them and you cut their chances to recruit others on the "underground" -- because the vocal ones will find a way to be heard, one way or another.

Finally, even given what I said above, I agree that this "permit" is unpleasant. But, again, it is a reaction to the fact that the own PC culture have enlarged so much the notion of what is racism, so people went from the "nothing is allowed" to the "everything is allowed" in a blink of an eye. This is a lesson in itself.

My original post was way longer than that. Unfortunately I do not have the energy to repeat it. Let´s see where the conversation leads us.

 

[Federberg]

It is a very good question and I appreciate that you asked it. Nekro´s response on the subject (and I hope I get to reply to some points he raised) show how "touchy" such subjects are. This is, in essence, a "politically incorrect" question, because in the part I did not quote you question parts of the Bible -- and had you questioned other holy books in similar terms you surely be labelled with a lot of tags, and would not be able to carry the conversation forward in most politically active circles. The Bible, in both new and old testaments (specially the old), has a lot of passages which are beyond absurd if you take them literally. This is, of course, well known. Even taking your anti-semitism point in consideration (and it is a very good one), fact is that we do not have armies around the world decapitating people using the Bible as justification (and they could find if they wanted). Of course there´s a lot of social context to be considered that partially explain this, but still this is precisely the point were I would expect/want the Muslim "institutions" to intervene.

Do they use the koran as a justification though? I don't recall hearing any of them saying the koran told them to commit these acts. They do proclaim their piety. But the funny thing is that the KKK does the same. I'm an atheist myself by the way

Being South American, I know this too well. It is true that some people here (and there) use this as an excuse, but this is surely true to a large extent. The cruel part of it is that the people who suffer the consequences would blame all Americans and Europeans for what just a few are doing. In today´s world, I guess that societies will need to pay attention to what their governments and companies are doing in the other side of the world.

We're all complicit even if we don't like to think so. The kids working in rare earth mines that produce the batteries for our iPhones are real, but it becomes exhausting holding on to the guilt, and lets face it... we want those gizmos. Same thing with oil... we want it cheap

I do not think this is a problem. I rather have people screaming (or writing) their hate than actually killing each other. I know you run some risks by giving free speech such a pass, but at least this way people go out in the open and give law enforcement a better chance to react. Anything is better than random people bursting out all of a sudden (which is what happens when they are not allowed to voice their prejudices).

I would love for this ideal to be true. But why have cases of anti-semitism and racism been on the rise since the Trump and Brexit? Sadly people don't just feel the license to let out their inner demons online, they're acting out their violent fantasies in the real world as well. Now here's the funny thing... and you tell me if this is structural racism or not. A lot of these cases of racist or anti-semitic violence that have been happening in recent months are not front page news. For example, a white supremacist killed a black man in New York a few days ago. When they arrested him (and by the way, the police described him as a well dressed young man in their report ), they discovered lots of neo-nazi propaganda on his computer and he freely told them he had decided to travel to New York so he could kill as many black people as possible. Is this not terrorism too? I don't hear much outrage though? Look.. my point is that we can't afford to let the prejudices of some drive the narrative for what is already a terrible thing. This is not the crusades. It's 21st century asymmetric warfare that's being conducted against us, and our response has to be firm but measured. If we allow these murderers to alter our values then our eventual victory will be tainted and possibly even pyrrhic

 

[Nekro]

I'm an atheist myself by the way

You already failed bigtime there.

About the rest of your post. You keep coming up with the KKK and white supremacists as if they were to Christianity what the Jihadists are to Islam. White supremacists are going against Christian values. They are not considered Christians by the Christian communities, Jihadists are celebrated by Islamic communities.

So you're saying some racist nutter killed a black man. How is that comparable to what islamists are doing all ard the world? They are killing people with bombs, guns, cars, machetes, knives, trucks. Both improvised and organized way. The Tunesian guy who did the truck attack in Germany fled to italy, he was given a gun in a sec there by the islamic terrorist organization. Are you seriously comparing the KKK, which is a junk non-christian sect, to the Jihadists?

And btw you're looking at all from a theoretical and philosophical point of view. You didn't have to face these people in everyday life. I had to see these people turn the BP railway station into an allahu akbaring mess, my police buddy is still at the southern border trying to prevent them from crossing illegally doing more damage to the property there.

Just look at what's going on in Germany and France, muslim drug dealers and criminals and rapists are terrorizing the people. Why are you never talking about this? Because you weren't touched by these things in real life.

 

[mrzz]

Do they use the koran as a justification though? I don't recall hearing any of them saying the koran told them to commit these acts. They do proclaim their piety. But the funny thing is that the KKK does the same.

It is even more than using it as justification. The very notion of jihad comes from the Qu'ran. In fact, it is amazing how many customs and policies are directly derived from the Qu´ran.

We're all complicit even if we don't like to think so. The kids working in rare earth mines that produce the batteries for our iPhones are real, but it becomes exhausting holding on to the guilt, and lets face it... we want those gizmos. Same thing with oil... we want it cheap

It seems impossible, but it is in fact simple to stop this trend. You need to stop buying some stuff, stop voting for some other stuff, and stand up for it. Ok, it is not simple.

I would love for this ideal to be true. But why have cases of anti-semitism and racism been on the rise since the Trump and Brexit

It is too soon to say that. It is in fact much more likely that those cases are results of long repressed feelings than effects of "free hatred-speech" environment (which is not the case yet, anyway).

A lot of these cases of racist or anti-semitic violence that have been happening in recent months are not front page news

I know we discussed this before, and that you are speaking metaphorically, but we cannot use front page news as a parameter, from one side or another. Episodes will happen, be it with KKK members or immigrants. We need to look at a bigger picture (by the way, I am sure you´re trying to).

my point is that we can't afford to let the prejudices of some drive the narrative for what is already a terrible thing

We are 100% in agreement here (and with the rest of your post). As usual, we agree on the ends, but disagree on the means.

And btw you're looking at all from a theoretical and philosophical point of view. You didn't have to face these people in everyday life.

I will respond because this is a valid and very important argument. (By the way I have no idea if Federberg had or had not to face these people in everyday life).

First, the obvious, by "these people" you mean the criminals. Of course, given the context, the percentage of criminals within the immigrants is much much higher than the one in the countries they go to.

But even if you put it in rough terms, you are 100% right if you mean that the people who actually have to directly deal with the situation of accepting or not the immigrants, and to live in the same cities as them, are the ones who should have a say on it. It is easy to appeal to humanitarian reasons while others do the heavy lifting.

To open borders, to help others, it must be conscious choice. One should be completely aware of the cost, and the benefits (mostly moral). I completely understand what you´re saying, and I completely reject those who instantly discredit a speech like yours, just based on the fact that you do not took care with the wording ("these people" etc). You are pissed and you are making generalizations, which I do not agree with, but I know where you coming from. So I´ll use, or reverse, one of Federberg´s arguments supporting PC (in fact, arguing against the rebellion against it, but still) and say that to judge your speech just by the use of those words is weak thinking.

So the option to open or not your borders, or about how you do it, concerns only the people within those borders, and depends heavily on the context. Again, I am 100% with you that you are not obliged (or, at least in general, even morally obliged) to open your borders.

The only thing I would add, and it is important in my view, again, is that you must be conscious of your choices. You must be 100% conscious that you are letting 1000 people out because 23, or 32, are criminals. This is tricky, I know, and there are a lot of sides to it. Again, you must be conscious about how much you can help, about how much you can take. You could well conclude that it is too much too ask. But sometimes (I am not saying that it is your case, almost surely not) people just don´t want to pay nothing at all, and still find an excuse to have their consciences clear. This people will say that "they" are all criminals, are all rapists, and that they are in fact morally obliged to close their borders. If this guy is Christian, by the way, it is a massive hypocrisy (thank god I am an atheist too).


P.S. Just to give some context on my position, if I were there I would not agree with European countries closing their borders (even if I would everything in a much different way), and if I were American I would agree with heavy tight controls on the border with Mexico.

 

[Nekro]

P.S. Just to give some context on my position, if I were there I would not agree with European countries closing their borders (even if I would everything in a much different way), and if I were American I would agree with heavy tight controls on the border with Mexico.

That's because you don't know all the little cases and the problems that are/were popping up on a daily basis.

Actually i wasn't this much against the migrants, at the start i even thought most of the stories about them were fake, made up by our government to support their own agenda. I gave the migrants another and another chance but they blew it again and again. The bad things they did, the property damage in the border villages, the molestations against the women and lots of other criminal activities turned out to be ard 90% true. That kinda made my position untenable within my family too. The trolling i got from my two far right cousins in certain cases, when it turned out the horror stories about the muslims were true was unreal.

The closing of the borders is btw the fault of the criminals who are organizing the migration. As i told you they told many of the migrants to get rid of their papers cause that way they could get to the rich countries because they couldn't be registered in the poor countries.

You also don't know all the scandals with the "civil" organizations, which many suspect are sponsored by Soros or similar people. There was the scandal with Migration Aid and its head, a criminal called "Baba", who stole lots of money and made unreal profit. They were collecting lots of money from our soft hearted citizens too to help the migrants and they don't even have a trackable bank account. Also it turned out many in the organization knew about the "Baba" and that he was a criminal who was in jail formerly but they just ignored that fact. And then there was big whining from the clueless liberals when our government (who were right about most things in this mess) started prosecuting these organizations.


And i guess you don't know about lots of the abuses that happened because at the start the borders weren't closed yet and many paperless people got through. The Würzburg terrorist for example lied that he was underage so he got put into a children's home in Fót, from where he escaped after 1 day, he was using different names btw during his trip to Germany, then he got to German foster parents and he planned and carried out the attack there. It was a huge messup, the Germans realized this since then, there are many articles in German papers about this. Yeah, and that's just the paperless people, there were tons of problems with people with fake documents, etc etc. This is a huge mess.


Another thought about how clueless some people in the UK are: Federberg said Eastern Europe and Russia are not considered parts of Western culture by most UK citizens. And look at the UK: Muslims are marching on the streets with "Sharia for the UK" cards, are these people considered parts of western culture? Just lol. The UK messed up bigtime.

And another idea, just a personal idea of mine, maybe you'll find it radical but this is what i think: Most of the muslim enabling, let's let bearded fellows get into young girls' locker if they feel they belong to the female gender kind of people are usually childless, futureless nolifers, usually atheists too. They know they don't have future so they don't care about the future of their culture, their people and their country either.

So in many questions i would fricking withdraw the voting rights of people who don't have at least 1 child. I know many people will find that idea radical but seeing all the things i'm seeing this is what i think lately.

 

[Federberg]

It is even more than using it as justification. The very notion of jihad comes from the Qu'ran. In fact, it is amazing how many customs and policies are directly derived from the Qu´ran.

It has many contexts in the koran, not necessarily militaristic. A lot talk about internal struggle and striving. There's no question that there are interpretations that can be taken in a military context, but even here it's more defensive in nature. The point is that two muslims can read the same text and extract a different meaning. Same thing in the bible by the way (not talking about violence, just interpretations).

It is too soon to say that. It is in fact much more likely that those cases are results of long repressed feelings than effects of "free hatred-speech" environment (which is not the case yet, anyway).

Sadly, it's not too soon to say that. The data is supportive in both the UK and US. It might be long repressed, or it could the toxic combination of economic circumstance and contemporary politics

I know we discussed this before, and that you are speaking metaphorically, but we cannot use front page news as a parameter, from one side or another. Episodes will happen, be it with KKK members or immigrants. We need to look at a bigger picture (by the way, I am sure you´re trying to).

I'm not sure that we can ignore this mate. I remember watching a documentary about the LA Riots after the Rodney King incident. Most of the news reels about the riots showed black people rioting and looting, and I always assumed that was what it was. I watched an LA Times reporter (at the time) talk about how most of the looting was done by white people, and about how he wanted to write about it, and even had film showing the evidence. His editors told him to pull it, that would confuse the narrative. So I found it particularly striking about this case of racist terrorism and the lack of reporting. I do find it striking, and this is always a big fear for me with the media. As hard as we try, they have a way of directing the narrative and it's up to us to truly understand what's happening

 

[mrzz]

That's because you don't know all the little cases and the problems that are/were popping up on a daily basis.

Actually i wasn't this much against the migrants, at the start i even thought most of the stories about them were fake, made up by our government to support their own agenda. I gave the migrants another and another chance but they blew it again and again. The bad things they did, the property damage in the border villages, the molestations against the women and lots of other criminal activities turned out to be ard 90% true. That kinda made my position untenable within my family too. The trolling i got from my two far right cousins in certain cases, when it turned out the horror stories about the muslims were true was unreal.

The closing of the borders is btw the fault of the criminals who are organizing the migration. As i told you they told many of the migrants to get rid of their papers cause that way they could get to the rich countries because they couldn't be registered in the poor countries.

You also don't know all the scandals with the "civil" organizations, which many suspect are sponsored by Soros or similar people. There was the scandal with Migration Aid and its head, a criminal called "Baba", who stole lots of money and made unreal profit. They were collecting lots of money from our soft hearted citizens too to help the migrants and they don't even have a trackable bank account. Also it turned out many in the organization knew about the "Baba" and that he was a criminal who was in jail formerly but they just ignored that fact. And then there was big whining from the clueless liberals when our government (who were right about most things in this mess) started prosecuting these organizations.


And i guess you don't know about lots of the abuses that happened because at the start the borders weren't closed yet and many paperless people got through. The Würzburg terrorist for example lied that he was underage so he got put into a children's home in Fót, from where he escaped after 1 day, he was using different names btw during his trip to Germany, then he got to German foster parents and he planned and carried out the attack there. It was a huge messup, the Germans realized this since then, there are many articles in German papers about this. Yeah, and that's just the paperless people, there were tons of problems with people with fake documents, etc etc. This is a huge mess.


Another thought about how clueless some people in the UK are: Federberg said Eastern Europe and Russia are not considered parts of Western culture by most UK citizens. And look at the UK: Muslims are marching on the streets with "Sharia for the UK" cards, are these people considered parts of western culture? Just lol. The UK messed up bigtime.

And another idea, just a personal idea of mine, maybe you'll find it radical but this is what i think: Most of the muslim enabling, let's let bearded fellows get into young girls' locker if they feel they belong to the female gender kind of people are usually childless, futureless nolifers, usually atheists too. They know they don't have future so they don't care about the future of their culture, their people and their country either.

So in many questions i would fricking withdraw the voting rights of people who don't have at least 1 child. I know many people will find that idea radical but seeing all the things i'm seeing this is what i think lately.

I appreciate the time you took the describe the thing blatantly. In fact I knew I there are things I don´t know.

I believe in all the facts you wrote (some interpretations may differ). That´s why I said that I would agree with immigration, but in a completely different way. I mean really completely different. And the focus would be exactly this: identify the criminals. It could take two years, I don´t care. In the mean time you give food and shelter to people on camps. You organize priorities, you give special attention to kids. Do what you gotta do to treat people as people. But I fully agree with you that you need to protect your citizens, your culture and your property. The thing I stress is that all these are not exclusive notions.

About your idea of voting, on the one hand I like this approach: Even if I do not vote, given my anarchist heart, if there would be a voting system in which I would trust, for sure 18 years old would not vote in them. To my eyes, you need to be at least 25 to have a say on society. Why? Statistically people under 25 make bad decisions, every parent knows it, teachers know it, insurance companies know it. There are exceptions? Sure. That´s not the point.

Anyway, thing is that I am not sure if times like these are the best the make such a discussion. I agree that crisis ask for desperate measures, but they often impose themselves.