Time to crown Novak the GOAT?

atttomole

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It actually helped Federer not hurt him and where's video that debunked the slowing down of surfaces.

Goatovic YouTuber...


It was Federer two rivals that was he's main issue not surfaces.

And as massive Federer fan it's weak make Surfaces Excuses because Federer plays well on slow surfaces.
Federer was a lot better on fast surfaces than his rivals, therefore he was hurt by the slowing down of the surfaces. He won on slower surfaces because of his versatility, not because he preferred slow surfaces. Remember the Australian Open around 2017-2018? There is no problem in having slow surfaces, but what is not ok is to have all fast surfaces being slowed down.
 
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Kieran

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LOL, but...really, who is the victim? Is there a victim? I don't see a victim.

I’m the victim! Can’t you see it?! I’ve been following these clowns for 45 years - I’m the victim! They don’t give a hoot about me!

:face-with-head-bandage::lulz1:
I see a bunch of different players doing what players have always done: play according to the context of their time. No one is being victimized, no one getting the short end of the stick. Rafa isn't the victim because the WTF is indoors, nor is Roger the victim because there's no grass Masters. Etc, etc.

Actually, the WTF could be indoors and on clay. Even once, just to reflect the diversity of the tour. And there’s no reason why the Asian swing has to be hard courts at all. These things aren’t inevitable, and they affect the rankings and records of the great players.

And again, I’m not saying “What if” other than to point out that if the tour was structured advantageously to Rafa, I wouldn’t claim he was the goat. Especially not if he was always fit and entering every event, and his closest rival still matched him in the slam total.

Sampras wasn't victimized - his game just didn't play well on clay. There were other players of his era that were more balanced on different surfaces. Somehow Andre Agassi, an inferior player, managed to win Roland Garros and Wimbledon. Just 15 years before, there was this Swede who won the Channel Slam three years in a row. I think what this really tells us is that while Pete was great, he wasn't as great as the Big Three or Borg in his prime.

And no, the increase in hards was not to anyone's advantage because it was slow...it didn't happen over night. Hards are also a bit different than grass or clay because the courts vary more greatly. You've got everything from the super fast Cincinnati and indoor WTF to almost clay-like slow courts.
The change to hards was to Jimmy Connors advantage in 1978 and John McEnroe’s from 79-81. They played on clay in 1976 and 1977. They even changed their hard courts since Sampras retired and again, it’s not set in stone that the tournament should be played on hards. They could have easily have switched to grass or clay. The point again is that the tour makes commercial decisions, not decisions related to tennis history or aesthetics.

As for Sampras he had to specialise to become the great player he wanted to be. Agassi was a strange case because he was almost a prediction of what was to come in the BIG 3, with one-size-fits-all his baseline game. Undoubtably great but also undoubtedly lucky. He escaped a drug ban in 1997 that would have ruined him.

Borg was a great exception in the way he managed all those Wimbos and French. People wondered was he human, given his virtually non existent pulse. He had a great eye, a decent return, and the great to care of his volleys.

But one Channel Slam in 28 years showed just how difficult the transition between the surfaces used to be. It’s still not an easy one to be ready for Wimbledon after Paris, but it’s made more accessible by the extras week…
 
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Andy22

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Federer was a lot better on fast surfaces than his rivals, therefore he was hurt by the slowing down of the surfaces. He won on slower surfaces because of his versatility, not because he preferred slow surfaces. Remember the Australian Open around 2017-2018? There is no problem in having slow surfaces, but what is not ok is to have all fast surfaces being slowed down.
If Federer not good as Djokovic or Nadal on slow surfaces that's he's issue for being less complete player.

Your making Federer look weak and less compete player on slower courts compared to his main rivals.

Remember Nadal has had it the worse with his Favourite surface being only one slam and few Masters.

Djokovic is on par with Federer on faster surfaces with 6 WTF titles and more overall big indoor titles.
 
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Kieran

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I miss those days when the surfaces were quite distinct & gave "also rans" of the tour a chance to upset an elite player! Times have changed to accommodate the top pros; going 32 seeds, homogenizing the court surfaces, Protected Rankings, etc.! Like we discussed a week or so ago, the tour overcompensated when Fedal had to WD from a Masters' event after going 5 long sets in Hamburg final 15 years ago! The same players wouldn't make consecutive finals often enough for the need after the Big 3 retire! They need to go back to BO5 finals IMO to make them special & above 250 & 500 events! :angry-face: :pleading-face::astonished-face::fearful-face:
I totally agree with this. They ought to have kept best of five for MS finals. So what if the big 3 couldn’t recover in time? Somebody else would get a taste of winning and that opens up things immediately to a whole different long term scenario, far as the hierarchy is concerned..
 
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atttomole

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If Federer not good as Djokovic or Nadal on slow surfaces that's he's issue for less complete player.

Your making Federer look weak and less compete player on slower courts compared to his main rivals.

Remember Nadal has had it the worse with his Favourite surface being only one slam and few Masters.

Djokovic is on par with Federer on faster surfaces with 6 WTF titles and more overall big indoor titles.
It’s clear you do not understand what I am saying, or you are just one of the few remaining Nadal trolls.
 
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Andy22

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It’s clear you do not understand what I am saying, or you are just one of the few remaining Nadal trolls.
I understand just don't think we should blame surfaces for Federer losses it's embarrassing.

ATP please make the tour faster so my favourite player can win more is basically that your saying here.

Bye now I'm massive Federer fan but your just making him look weak with these Surfaces Excuses.
 
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Front242

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Not she is not... But when it comes to the people he infected during the Adria Tour and its after parties, or when he went in public while knowingly having Covid, I guess we will never know if someone caught it from him and then passed it on to their grand parents or other people at risk... Stop defending his foolishness and bad behaviour both on the court (for example how he was a complete embarrassment at the last Olympics) and outside the court... People have seen it all and that's why he will never be loved or seen as the GOAT. Being the GOAT is not only about stats it's also about the impact on the game, how people remember you and see you, he will always be in the shadow of Fedal.
Vaxxed or not, masked or not it wouldn't have made any difference. The PCR test is laughable also. Same chance for some geriatric to catch a sniffle in the supermarket.
 

Fiero425

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Vaxxed or not, masked or not it wouldn't have made any difference. The PCR test is laughable also. Same chance for some geriatric to catch a sniffle in the supermarket.

Funny, I never took a C-19 test of any kind! Lucky as a Senior I avoided it, retired & careful when in public; esp. on public transportation! :pleading-face: :fearful-face:
 

El Dude

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Wait, Roger wasn't good on slow courts? How'd he reach five Roland Garros finals? (Same as Lendl, Vilas, and Wilander, who are all considered among the half dozen or so greatest clay courters of the Open Era).

Roger was awesome on clay, at least during his prime. He just wasn't as good as the Other Guy.
 
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El Dude

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I’m the victim! Can’t you see it?! I’ve been following these clowns for 45 years - I’m the victim! They don’t give a hoot about me!

:face-with-head-bandage::lulz1:


Actually, the WTF could be indoors and on clay. Even once, just to reflect the diversity of the tour. And there’s no reason why the Asian swing has to be hard courts at all. These things aren’t inevitable, and they affect the rankings and records of the great players.

And again, I’m not saying “What if” other than to point out that if the tour was structured advantageously to Rafa, I wouldn’t claim he was the goat. Especially not if he was always fit and entering every event, and his closest rival still matched him in the slam total.

OK, fair enough, if that's your point.
The change to hards was to Jimmy Connors advantage in 1978 and John McEnroe’s from 79-81. They played on clay in 1976 and 1977. They even changed their hard courts since Sampras retired and again, it’s not set in stone that the tournament should be played on hards. They could have easily have switched to grass or clay. The point again is that the tour makes commercial decisions, not decisions related to tennis history or aesthetics.
I'm guessing hard courts are easier (and cheaper) to maintain?
As for Sampras he had to specialise to become the great player he wanted to be. Agassi was a strange case because he was almost a prediction of what was to come in the BIG 3, with one-size-fits-all his baseline game. Undoubtably great but also undoubtedly lucky. He escaped a drug ban in 1997 that would have ruined him.

Borg was a great exception in the way he managed all those Wimbos and French. People wondered was he human, given his virtually non existent pulse. He had a great eye, a decent return, and the great to care of his volleys.

But one Channel Slam in 28 years showed just how difficult the transition between the surfaces used to be. It’s still not an easy one to be ready for Wimbledon after Paris, but it’s made more accessible by the extras week…
Yup. Not many Channel Slam winners in the Open Era:

1969: Laver
1978-80: Borg
2008: Nadal
2009: Federer
2010: Nadal
2021: Djokovic

And kudos on Rafa for doing it twice, vs. Roger and Novak only once each.
 
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Fiero425

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OK, fair enough, if that's your point.

I'm guessing hard courts are easier (and cheaper) to maintain?

Yup. Not many Channel Slam winners in the Open Era:

1969: Laver
1978-80: Borg
1988: Wilander
2008: Nadal
2009: Federer
2010: Nadal
2021: Djokovic

And kudos on Rafa for doing it twice, vs. Roger and Novak only once each.

Wilander? I don't think so! As far as I can recall OTTH, he only got to one QF over the yrs.! He won on grass "down under" a couple times though! :facepalm:
 
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El Dude

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Wilander? I don't think so! As far as I can recall OTTH, he only got to one QF over they yrs! He won on grass "down under" a couple times though! :facepalm:
You're right - my source switched the position of RG and the AO, when the schedule changed in the late 80s.
 
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Moxie

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I'm guessing hard courts are easier (and cheaper) to maintain?
I think that's the general consensus. Better for players' bodies? Probably not, but it's what we've got. But there is, as Kieran says, a benefit to players whose games favor hards.
And kudos on Rafa for doing it twice, vs. Roger and Novak only once each.
Appreciate the kudos to Rafa for that. Only Djokovic had a chance to do it twice, of the 3, but only managed one. Roger, in his one chance, did pull it off.
 
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shawnbm

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Wait, Roger wasn't good on slow courts? How'd he reach five Roland Garros finals? (Same as Lendl, Vilas, and Wilander, who are all considered among the half dozen or so greatest clay courters of the Open Era).

Roger was awesome on clay, at least during his prime. He just wasn't as good as the Other Guy.
Nobody was as good as the Other Guy, only Borg can be mentioned in the same breath on the men's side.
 

Nadalfan2013

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11-7 and 10-4 shows how there’s only 1 goat and it’s Rafa. The only reason why he isn’t far ahead of Fedovic in slam titles is because of his countless injuries throughout his career. Thank you for reading and please do have a wonderful day! :rose:
 
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TheSicilian

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11-6 and 10-4 shows how there’s only 1 goat and it’s Rafa. The only reason why he isn’t far ahead of Fedovic in slam titles is because of his countless injuries throughout his career. Thank you for reading and please do have a wonderful day! :rose:
Apparently H2H record is very important yet to a lot H2H record in slams doesn't matter :thinking-face::popcorn 11-6 10-4 = 21-10 :cool: Impressive numbers :clap:
 

shawnbm

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Has Nole become the second person in the Open Era (after Federer, naturally) to have won at least 10 titles on each of the 3 surfaces (grass, clay and hards) in his career?
 
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El Dude

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Has Nole become the second person in the Open Era (after Federer, naturally) to have won at least 10 titles on each of the 3 surfaces (grass, clay and hards) in his career?
Novak has only won 8 titles on grass. Only Roger (19) and Sampras (10) have double-digit grass titles. Connors had 9, and thus was one short of the "10-10-10" club (actually, of the 10x4 club, as he also had 10+ carpet titles). So it is only Roger.