Time to crown Novak the GOAT?

[El Dude]

Ask @Moxie, @MargaretMcAleer or @tented @Kieran and @TheSicilian if they think you're fair!

Are you unable to stand on your own or defend your claim?

 

[Moxie]

Ask @Moxie, @MargaretMcAleer or @tented @Kieran and @TheSicilian if they think you're fair!

I'm going to get into trouble for this, but you dragged me in. Yes, I think El Dude is fair, and I think he tries harder, even, than most to be unbiased. I think all of us old-timers and stalwarts around here, for the most part, try to be fair. Not so much Fiero, but he's been pretty clear about his biases, and where they come from. Everyone's bias leaks out sometimes. But, do I think that El Dude is a closet Novak fan, as he has been accused of by a few? I do not. He's trying to drag us towards what he sees as the inevitable (see the OP,) and some of us are trying to say, "Not so fast," and "there is no GOAT." Etc. You know I like to scrap with him, but I don't believe for a minute that he's a Djokovic fan-wolf in Federer's clothing.
Now, for the rest of the year, you're going to tell me that I'm "mean to you." And I'm not going to remember why.

Quite frankly this post has turned into 'my man is better than your man' I have better things to do with my time, some of the latest posts regarding who speaks the most languages etc, who is the best looking etc, is kindergarten stuff.It started off good,though sad to say has gone downhill in a rapid rate.

The title of this thread is "Time to Crown Novak the GOAT?" It was ALWAYS going to be a "my man is better than your man" discussion. Yes, it gets childish, but I'm just the woman to take off the gloves and scrub around in it. That's just me.

 

[Fiero425]

I'm going to get into trouble for this, but you dragged me in. Yes, I think El Dude is fair, and I think he tries harder, even, than most to be unbiased. I think all of us old-timers and stalwarts around here, for the most part, try to be fair. Not so much Fiero, but he's been pretty clear about his biases, and where they come from. Everyone's bias leaks out sometimes. But, do I think that El Dude is a closet Novak fan, as he has been accused of by a few? I do not. He's trying to drag us towards what he sees as the inevitable (see the OP,) and some of us are trying to say, "Not so fast," and "there is no GOAT." Etc. You know I like to scrap with him, but I don't believe for a minute that he's a Djokovic fan-wolf in Federer's clothing.
Now, for the rest of the year, you're going to tell me that I'm "mean to you." And I'm not going to remember why.

The title of this thread is "Time to Crown Novak the GOAT?" It was ALWAYS going to be a "my man is better than your man" discussion. Yes, it gets childish, but I'm just the woman to take off the gloves and scrub around in it. That's just me.

I tend to think the fans who believe there is no GOAT just can't defend their own fave by comparing apples and oranges! I would personally put Federer ahead of Nadal even if the major's lead extends to 5! His lopsided resume can't be overlooked by experts "in the know!" I would still put Laver, Gonzales, & Rosewall ahead of Rafa even though grass was the main surface during their era! Novak owns all the meaningful records and will inevitably put the race out of reach for all time! I doubt anyone will come close to the achievements of the Big 3 so if Novak settles in "at the top," he'll be there for quite a while even if the ATP finally goes to the "NG scoring" of "1st to 4 games, no Ad, TB @ 3 All!" It did help the Big 3 when they took Masters events to BO3! It made it easier for Fedalovic to win multiple events in a season that wouldn't be possible 10-20 years ago! I hope it doesn't happen, but if majors finally get away from BO5, it would really be corrupt trying to match & surpass past accomplishments, diminishing them to a certain extend!

 

[Moxie]

I tend to think the fans who believe there is no GOAT just can't defend their own fave by comparing apples and oranges!

Many people, and rightly so, think that it would ALWAYS be comparing apples to oranges...too much so to make a definitive conclusion.

I would personally put Federer ahead of Nadal even if the major's lead extends to 25! His lopsided resume can't be overlooked by experts "in the know!"

Again with the lop-sided resume. It doesn't seem to matter to you that Federer only ever won 1 French Open, (we can discuss why,) and even eventually skipped all or much of the clay season. Rafa, on the other hand, at least has the double career GS. And his record off-clay beats most of the all-timers.

I would still put Laver, Gonzales, & Rosewall ahead of Rafa even though grass was the main surface during their era!

Well, THERE'S an obvious prejudice. The surface structure of the calendar and the tour was completely different, but you're happy to put them ahead of Rafa. I have to ask myself why? And I'd ask you, too.

Novak owns all the meaningful records

Again, that's partially personal prejudice.

It did help the Big 3 when they took Masters events to BO3! It made it easier for Fedalovic to win multiple events in a season that wouldn't be possible 10-20 years ago!

That was basically because of the Italian Open in 2006, when they went 5 long sets, (Rafa won, btw,) and then they both pulled out of Hamburg, I believe it was. The tour was protecting itself, at the time. You could call it short-sighted, and I, for one, miss it, but I don't think the tour was going in any other direction than shortening matches, anyway.

I hope it doesn't happen, but if majors finally get away from BO5, it would really be corrupt trying to match & surpass past accomplishments, diminishing them to a certain extend!

All it would do is further make it impossible to ever establish a GOAT, going forward. See how that works? The game changes, the equipment changes, the surfaces change, the rules change, the emphases change, and how do you ever compare them?

 

[MargaretMcAleer]

I'm going to get into trouble for this, but you dragged me in. Yes, I think El Dude is fair, and I think he tries harder, even, than most to be unbiased. I think all of us old-timers and stalwarts around here, for the most part, try to be fair. Not so much Fiero, but he's been pretty clear about his biases, and where they come from. Everyone's bias leaks out sometimes. But, do I think that El Dude is a closet Novak fan, as he has been accused of by a few? I do not. He's trying to drag us towards what he sees as the inevitable (see the OP,) and some of us are trying to say, "Not so fast," and "there is no GOAT." Etc. You know I like to scrap with him, but I don't believe for a minute that he's a Djokovic fan-wolf in Federer's clothing.
Now, for the rest of the year, you're going to tell me that I'm "mean to you." And I'm not going to remember why.

The title of this thread is "Time to Crown Novak the GOAT?" It was ALWAYS going to be a "my man is better than your man" discussion. Yes, it gets childish, but I'm just the woman to take off the gloves and scrub around in it. That's just me.

I take your point, still my man is better looking than yours
My man speaks Chinese and Japanese and Rafa can barely speak English? please that is taking it too far, too childish in my eyes how can anyone debate such rubbish to begin with.Lets leave personal opinions on their favorite players, who looks the best and who can speak more languages LOL, out of this for starters and debate the real facts , then maybe more people will give there opinion in this post, me included.

 

[Fiero425]

Many people, and rightly so, think that it would ALWAYS be comparing apples to oranges...too much so to make a definitive conclusion.

Again with the lop-sided resume. It doesn't seem to matter to you that Federer only ever won 1 French Open, (we can discuss why,) and even eventually skipped all or much of the clay season. Rafa, on the other hand, at least has the double career GS. And his record off-clay beats most of the all-timers.

Well, THERE'S an obvious prejudice. The surface structure of the calendar and the tour was completely different, but you're happy to put them ahead of Rafa. I have to ask myself why? And I'd ask you, too.

Again, that's partially personal prejudice.

That was basically because of the Italian Open in 2006, when they went 5 long sets, (Rafa won, btw,) and then they both pulled out of Hamburg, I believe it was. The tour was protecting itself, at the time. You could call it short-sighted, and I, for one, miss it, but I don't think the tour was going in any other direction than shortening matches, anyway.

All it would do is further make it impossible to ever establish a GOAT, going forward. See how that works? The game changes, the equipment changes, the surfaces change, the rules change, the emphases change, and how do you ever compare them?

True enough Federer won just 1 FO, but at one time, we anointed Sampras as the BOAT w/o even playing a RG final! I remember both Fedal dropping out of Hamburg due to their 5 setter at the Italian Open! It was still very short-sighted accommodating Fedal as usual! That why I loved Novak coming along in 2007 to knock them off their pedestal! I feel fortunate to have lived during the transition from AM to Pro tennis! I got to see past greats (Laver, Rosewall, Newcombe, Ashe, Court, King) & the NG'rs like Connors, Evert, & Borg!

 

[Andy22]

China and India, for example, have many more people than your "West".

Your claim that Nadal is more popular than No1e is utter nonsense.

So why did Nadal win fan favourite Award Explain?.

Why does Nadal have more twitter followers isn't world wide platform?.

 

[Fiero425]

So why did Nadal win fan favourite Award Explain?.

Why does Nadal have more followers isn't world wide platform?.

I guess you want us to believe winning the 1st two majors while Novak banned from play didn't have anything to do w/ that?!?

 

[El Dude]

I'm going to get into trouble for this, but you dragged me in. Yes, I think El Dude is fair, and I think he tries harder, even, than most to be unbiased. I think all of us old-timers and stalwarts around here, for the most part, try to be fair. Not so much Fiero, but he's been pretty clear about his biases, and where they come from. Everyone's bias leaks out sometimes. But, do I think that El Dude is a closet Novak fan, as he has been accused of by a few? I do not. He's trying to drag us towards what he sees as the inevitable (see the OP,) and some of us are trying to say, "Not so fast," and "there is no GOAT." Etc. You know I like to scrap with him, but I don't believe for a minute that he's a Djokovic fan-wolf in Federer's clothing.
Now, for the rest of the year, you're going to tell me that I'm "mean to you." And I'm not going to remember why.

Thanks, Moxie. You and I scuffle, but we always come back and hug - that's how it should be, no?

The title of this thread is "Time to Crown Novak the GOAT?" It was ALWAYS going to be a "my man is better than your man" discussion. Yes, it gets childish, but I'm just the woman to take off the gloves and scrub around in it. That's just me.

I hear you, but it doesn't have to be that way. We should be able to look at the issue somewhat dispassionately, and still love "our guy." And more to the point, we should love our guy regardless of where he belongs in the GOAT rankings...I mean, there are Andy fans, right? They know he's not the GOAT. There have been Becker and Agassi and Edberg fans. I'll admit I would have liked to see Roger end up with the GOAT resume, but I don't love him any less for the incredible career he's had - that the three have all had. I mean, aside from maybe Fiero, no one is going to not rank the three outside of the top five of all time, and the vast majority will put them in a quartet with Laver, some in a trio ahead of Laver. And all three will always have specific qualities and accomplishments that the other two don't have: Roger's early dominance of his peers and elegant, archetypal play; Rafa's clay dominance and his unequaled fighting spirit; and Novak's usurpation and overall career resume that edges past everyone else, even if he doesn't have the "sex appeal" of Fedal.

Made this is all just symptomatic of the Big Three era, and yet another reason why I'll be glad when its over. At the very least, we wipe the slate clean and can line up behind the young pups. Maybe the Rune folks and the Alcaraz folks will be at each others' throats...who knows.

 

[Andy22]

I guess you want us to believe winning the 1st two majors while Novak banned from play didn't have anything to do w/ that?!?

Nadal will win fan favourite Award this year as well that's your excuse going to be?.

Nadal twitter followers 15.8 million
Djokovic twitter followers 9.2 million

Again that's your excuse for this wipe out.

 

[Fiero425]

Nadal will win fan favourite Award this year as well that's your excuse going to be?.

Nadal twitter followers 15.8 million
Djokovic twitter followers 9.2 million

Again that's your excuse for this wipe out.

I like to think I'm living for more than being a fanboy for some sport's figure who couldn't give one ##@# about you or me!

 

[Moxie]

Thanks, Moxie. You and I scuffle, but we always come back and hug - that's how it should be, no?

Indeed. I think that's how it is with the core, around here.

I hear you, but it doesn't have to be that way. We should be able to look at the issue somewhat dispassionately, and still love "our guy." And more to the point, we should love our guy regardless of where he belongs in the GOAT rankings...I mean, there are Andy fans, right? They know he's not the GOAT. There have been Becker and Agassi and Edberg fans. I'll admit I would have liked to see Roger end up with the GOAT resume, but I don't love him any less for the incredible career he's had - that the three have all had. I mean, aside from maybe Fiero, no one is going to not rank the three outside of the top five of all time, and the vast majority will put them in a quartet with Laver, some in a trio ahead of Laver. And all three will always have specific qualities and accomplishments that the other two don't have: Roger's early dominance of his peers and elegant, archetypal play; Rafa's clay dominance and his unequaled fighting spirit; and Novak's usurpation and overall career resume that edges past everyone else, even if he doesn't have the "sex appeal" of Fedal.

Well, it DOES have to be a bit this way, if you're going to insist on a GOAT. I know you haven't always, with your 3-headed theory, in the past, but look at the OP. And you DO seem to have changed your opinion. Which is fine, for you, but we're not all required to follow along. Which doesn't mean that the rest of us can't be dispassionate in the conversation, or some of us. Disagreeing with you doesn't make us less than dispassionate. Your numbers and charts aren't the only answer, which we have discussed, and you agree with. There are still interesting arguments. (I actually think a few have gone out with the bathwater recently.) We have 2 active players who are amongst the greatest ever, and a recently retired one who is in the conversation. Just because you're ready to call it over, doesn't mean the rest of us have to, and that doesn't make us partizans. If you're ready to settle on Novak, that's you. There ARE other adults in the room, though.

Made this is all just symptomatic of the Big Three era, and yet another reason why I'll be glad when its over. At the very least, we wipe the slate clean and can line up behind the young pups. Maybe the Rune folks and the Alcaraz folks will be at each others' throats...who knows.

I think this argument will survive all of their retirements. That's not even a brave prediction. (Hell, we're still talking about Gonzalez and Rosewall, FFS.) But I do look forward to seeing how we all shake out declaring our newest favorites. There's a lot of jockeying around there, but not really settling. Maybe it's time for a poll!

 

[Fiero425]

Indeed. I think that's how it is with the core, around here.

Well, it DOES have to be a bit this way, if you're going to insist on a GOAT. I know you haven't always, with your 3-headed theory, in the past, but look at the OP. And you DO seem to have changed your opinion. Which is fine, for you, but we're not all required to follow along. Which doesn't mean that the rest of us can't be dispassionate in the conversation, or some of us. Disagreeing with you doesn't make us less than dispassionate. Your numbers and charts aren't the only answer, which we have discussed, and you agree with. There are still interesting arguments. (I actually think a few have gone out with the bathwater recently.) We have 2 active players who are amongst the greatest ever, and a recently retired one who is in the conversation. Just because you're ready to call it over, doesn't mean the rest of us have to, and that doesn't make us partizans. If you're ready to settle on Novak, that's you. There ARE other adults in the room, though.

I think this argument will survive all of their retirements. That's not even a brave prediction. (Hell, we're still talking about Gonzalez and Rosewall, FFS.) But I do look forward to seeing how we all shake out declaring our newest favorites. There's a lot of jockeying around there, but not really settling. Maybe it's time for a poll!

I know I shouldn't want to add on players from a time long ago, but for us oldsters I just want to hark back a little! The Big 3 have made it all moot as their #'s are far and away superior to any players past, present or future! We have to acknowledge Borg w/ a limited 11 Majors, but was a record in the Pro Era at the time before Sampras! There's more of an argument on the ladies' side of things! There are many contenders w/ advantages to take the crown! The list: Navratilova. Graf, Serena Wms., Court, Evert, King, Seles, Henin OTTH!

 

[Andy22]

I like to think I'm living for more than being a fanboy for some sport's figure who couldn't give one ##@# about you or me!

Of course Nadal cares about his fans even if he doesn't know us personally.

I don't live for any sportsman or Famous person I'm married and mostly happy.

I'm just Amazed by how Great Goatdal is.

Djokovic had weak eras same as Federer.

 

[BratSrbin]

Nadal will win fan favourite Award this year as well that's your excuse going to be?.

Nadal twitter followers 15.8 million
Djokovic twitter followers 9.2 million

Again that's your excuse for this wipe out.

The best on RG - Nadal, on other GS - No1e.

The most popular on Twitter - Nadal, everyvere else - No1e.

 

[Kieran]

I tend to think the fans who believe there is no GOAT just can't defend their own fave by comparing apples and oranges!

Well, an apple isn’t an orange. Can’t you see the difficulty?

Most of the time in sports general these arguments seem more about wanting to live in the greatest of all eras and boost up the Now at the expense of the Past. I’m not saying we’re like that but I’m thinking again of the bizarre claims made for Messi - he may indeed be the goat but the desperation to see him crowned was bizarre. Of course, Goat talk always involves trying to make it seem like players of old and players from nowadays were pursuing the same things. There most likely is a goat just like there’s probably been a single man who was the greatest ever brawler, a finest ever singer, but I’m never convinced that we’re able to fairly represent everybody in the calculations. And yes, I too think the Dude is in good faith and generous in compiling the studies. I enjoy reading them the same way all of us do…

 

[El Dude]

Indeed. I think that's how it is with the core, around here.

Well, it DOES have to be a bit this way, if you're going to insist on a GOAT. I know you haven't always, with your 3-headed theory, in the past, but look at the OP. And you DO seem to have changed your opinion. Which is fine, for you, but we're not all required to follow along. Which doesn't mean that the rest of us can't be dispassionate in the conversation, or some of us. Disagreeing with you doesn't make us less than dispassionate. Your numbers and charts aren't the only answer, which we have discussed, and you agree with. There are still interesting arguments. (I actually think a few have gone out with the bathwater recently.) We have 2 active players who are amongst the greatest ever, and a recently retired one who is in the conversation. Just because you're ready to call it over, doesn't mean the rest of us have to, and that doesn't make us partizans. If you're ready to settle on Novak, that's you. There ARE other adults in the room, though.

I agree that there is debate to be had, that it isn't "over." But also, my view hasn't as much changed, as I think there are different ways of approaching the issue. It isn't either there's a singular GOAT or there's a multi-headed GOAT...the GOAT question is "If you have to pick." Maybe "gun to head" is a bit too harsh, but what about if you're offered a million bucks to pick a GOAT, and the most powerful AI ever is going to calculate all factors perfectly to come up with an ordering, and if you pick wrongly you don't get the million bucks? OK, then we can say "but even AI could be biased and/or subjective," etc, but that's not the point of the exercise. It is basically, "If you have to choose."

Meaning, my view remains, "I don't think we can fully answer the question of GOATness for a variety of reasons, most notably the shifting context of tennis history and the difficulty of comparing across eras, but I still think we can give it a shot, if only for the fun of it."

In other words, recognizing that GOATness is multifaceted and perhaps impossible to determine doesn't preclude the mental exercise of still giving it a shot. It is a process of (hopefully informed) speculation and logical conjecture.

If we must approach the issue, I think the best way is to first clearly define what "GOAT" means - and what it doesn't mean. One of the problems with most GOAT lists is that criteria are rarely provided. Or maybe a better approach is to ignore "GOAT" and just approach the question of greatness from different angles, using specific specifics to ask questions like, "Who has the best Slam record?" "Who is the greatest competitor?" "Who consistently played at the highest level across all surfaces?" Etc. But even then, people are going to talk about the GOAT--it is always going to rear its ugly head (like it probably is now in basketball, with LeBron breaking the scoring record) and we can choose either to participate or not.

Or to put it one more way: It is not that I think Novak is the clear and obvious GOAT, or that he is/was clearly a greater player than Rafa or roger, but that he is the "least bad answer," at least of the Open Era. Historically, that may be Rod Laver.

I think this argument will survive all of their retirements. That's not even a brave prediction. (Hell, we're still talking about Gonzalez and Rosewall, FFS.) But I do look forward to seeing how we all shake out declaring our newest favorites. There's a lot of jockeying around there, but not really settling. Maybe it's time for a poll!

I think we have enough popularity contests going on, with all this silly talk in this thread!

 

[Kieran]

Meaning, my view remains, "I don't think we can fully answer the question of GOATness for a variety of reasons, most notably the shifting context of tennis history and the difficulty of comparing across eras, but I still think we can give it a shot, if only for the fun of it."

I couldn't have put it better myself, brother, and it is an entertaining discussion, an educating one too, that helps us all to better understand tennis now, tennis then, enjoy discussions about tennis players priorities in the past compared to now, and like I said above, there most likely is a goat but there's no inarguable goat and so the topic is useful but only to an extent - like all topics. I'm certainly not an "old man shakes fist at the clouds" kind of tennis fan when it comes to discussions of the goat. There's a thing called "nostalgia for the absolute", I heard a bloke on a podcast say he suffers slightly from it. Looking it up. it's an idea that refers to the decline of religion in peoples lives, and what replaces it, because we're prone as a species towards an absolute truth, whatever it might be, and so people try to fill this gap with politics, culture etc.

But I understood it at first to mean that we have a craving to see perfection somewhere, and so we're drawn to Mozart, we're drawn to idealistic species of thought and living, we gain spiritual strength from watching Federer in full scream. The essay about that tapped into a similar feeling, Roger Federer as a religious experience. The goat also might stem from hunger to witness something so extraordinarily perfect that the experience itself is akin to witnessing a proof for the existence of God, that there's order beyond the violence and chaos and that we can find inspiration and hope there. I know this probably feels exaggerated but to listen to a Schubert symphony or Beethoven sonata is to be dragged into a drama on scale that seems beyond the merely human...

 

[shawnbm]

Brother Kieran--my favorite poetic waxer

Loved the above comment brother!

 

[El Dude]

I couldn't have put it better myself, brother, and it is an entertaining discussion, an educating one too, that helps us all to better understand tennis now, tennis then, enjoy discussions about tennis players priorities in the past compared to now, and like I said above, there most likely is a goat but there's no inarguable goat and so the topic is useful but only to an extent - like all topics. I'm certainly not an "old man shakes fist at the clouds" kind of tennis fan when it comes to discussions of the goat. There's a thing called "nostalgia for the absolute", I heard a bloke on a podcast say he suffers slightly from it. Looking it up. it's an idea that refers to the decline of religion in peoples lives, and what replaces it, because we're prone as a species towards an absolute truth, whatever it might be, and so people try to fill this gap with politics, culture etc.

But I understood it at first to mean that we have a craving to see perfection somewhere, and so we're drawn to Mozart, we're drawn to idealistic species of thought and living, we gain spiritual strength from watching Federer in full scream. The essay about that tapped into a similar feeling, Roger Federer as a religious experience. The goat also might stem from hunger to witness something so extraordinarily perfect that the experience itself is akin to witnessing a proof for the existence of God, that there's order beyond the violence and chaos and that we can find inspiration and hope there. I know this probably feels exaggerated but to listen to a Schubert symphony or Beethoven sonata is to be dragged into a drama on scale that seems beyond the merely human...

Yes, all very well said. Interesting phrase, "the nostalgia for the absolute." That certainly resonates with various mystical/esoteric philosophies, which generally say that all of our longings and desires boil down to the separation/ignorance of the absolute (God), and are surrogates for that "return." Eventually we grow tired of surrogates - or they become more and more refined - until we re-discover "god."

In that sense, I wouldn't downplay the profundity of watching a great athlete - it can certainly have a "godly" quality to it, in a not dissimilar way to hearing beautiful music (as you say) or experiencing great art. So as you say, we see it elsewhere - especially in art, but also other "high" forms of culture. Or those old Platonic ideals of Goodness, Truth, and Beauty.

I love that David Foster Wallace essay, by the way! But I think, also, you can apply the same deep appreciation to Rafa, Novak, and other great players, yet come up with different adjectives and images (e.g. "indomitable bull with a two-handed katana" lol). In that sense, I kind of see preferring one over the other like musical tastes - they're the best of different "genres."

I do think the "search for the GOAT" is a bit different than appreciate greatness, and fan egos get involved. And our favorite player becomes somewhat like a surrogate for our own sense of self. It is less of an appreciation of great art and accomplishment, and more of a war between factions. My guy vs your guy. Or at least it devolves into that; for me, it is mainly a nerdy mental puzzle like playing Wordle or ranking favorite albums or films. I "get off" on trying to find the solution or truth to the puzzle...even though I'm never satisfied with whatever formula or methodology I dream up. Oh, and if I'm fully honest, I often use such projects as ways to procrastinate my own artistic work (mostly writing).