Time to crown Novak the GOAT?

[Fjaka2.0]

Joka tards are so arrogant now when they dont even realise that Federer was a shot away from wiping these morons off the face of the planet. Instead of being grateful for that god given 2nd chance they're foaming at the mouth all the time dragging discussions down. Sad and insecure bunch. No wonder Federer fans have deserted tennis forums because we know there's no point debating Djokovic fans who behave like goons.

Spoken like a real gentleman.

Do you even notice anything?

 

[monfed]

Spoken like a real gentleman.

Do you even notice anything?

If you're so secure in yourself why do you keep quoting me and asking me retarded questions?

Ok tell me something, how humiliated do you feel when a fellow Eastern European countryman thrashes your idol at the one slam he wanted to win the most? Russia being Serbia's daddy.

 

[Kieran]

In comparison of the 3.
He transformed to a midget when facing the two on big stages. Almost every time.
Also mental strength is just one aspect of the complete goat package.
Of course , one does not exclude the other.

Mental strength is the only thing that separates great players from great champions. We've seen many great players who can do anything with a racket, except when there's medals on the line, when their mind goes. It's not just pone aspect of any package in tennis - it's the only difference between winning and losing, and Roger has a good record against everyone in tennis, from this perspective.

But Federer isn't a mental midget in any regard. You put it that he is, in comparison to the other two, but that's a selective way of looking at it. Was he a mental midget at Wimbledon in 2019 when he beat Rafa in the semis, and two days later got to a final set tiebreak against Djoker? Federer was almost 38 at the time. We can go through their careers and see that Roger dominated Novak when Novak was young and that changed when Roger began to decline and Novak hit his peak. But even still, Roger has a great record against Rafa since 2014, despite Rafa being the more successful of the two. In some ways, that rivalry is the reverse of the one with Novak, where young Rafa was on top at the beginning but the veteran player has had the best of it more recently....

 

[Fjaka2.0]

Your entire opinion is dripping in subjectivity. You're a clueless Fed hating fakervic acolyte and to make things worse you're also stubborn. "Whatever I say". No, whatever YOU say, dumbo. Even the imaginary Djokovic GOAT train crashed at the USO when Medvedev beat him like a cheap whore in straight sets and humiliated him infront of the entire world. Crying before the match even ends LMAO!! What an utter embarassment pencilhead is!!

What is your opinion than subjective or any other???
That’s why I prefer stats as a basis.
I’m no Fedhater, you are a Fedslave who disintegrates in bitterness.
Your last two sentences show what a poor individual you are.

 

[Fjaka2.0]

If you're so secure in yourself why do you keep quoting me and asking me retarded questions?

Ok tell me something, how humiliated do you feel when a fellow Eastern European countryman thrashes your idol at the one slam he wanted to win the most? Russia being Serbia's daddy.

Why should I feel humiliated?
He lost to a better player that day. Federer don’t Even come close to that opportunity Novak had, and never will.

It’s a sick questions from a sick person. What about your Russia Serbia stuff? That’s even low for you

 

[Fjaka2.0]

Mental strength is the only thing that separates great players from great champions. We've seen many great players who can do anything with a racket, except when there's medals on the line, when their mind goes. It's not just pone aspect of any package in tennis - it's the only difference between winning and losing, and Roger has a good record against everyone in tennis, from this perspective.

But Federer isn't a mental midget in any regard. You put it that he is, in comparison to the other two, but that's a selective way of looking at it. Was he a mental midget at Wimbledon in 2019 when he beat Rafa in the semis, and two days later got to a final set tiebreak against Djoker? Federer was almost 38 at the time. We can go through their careers and see that Roger dominated Novak when Novak was young and that changed when Roger began to decline and Novak hit his peak. But even still, Roger has a great record against Rafa since 2014, despite Rafa being the more successful of the two. In some ways, that rivalry is the reverse of the one with Novak, where young Rafa was on top at the beginning but the veteran player has had the best of it more recently....

He is mentally the weakest of the 3, that’s for sure.
Mental midget is a term dedicated/adapted to monshits language.
Of course all of them are great champions, just small differences , mostly in favour of Novak.
You have to put my last posts in context to dumbfed.

 

[the AntiPusher]

Mental strength is the only thing that separates great players from great champions. We've seen many great players who can do anything with a racket, except when there's medals on the line, when their mind goes. It's not just pone aspect of any package in tennis - it's the only difference between winning and losing, and Roger has a good record against everyone in tennis, from this perspective.

But Federer isn't a mental midget in any regard. You put it that he is, in comparison to the other two, but that's a selective way of looking at it. Was he a mental midget at Wimbledon in 2019 when he beat Rafa in the semis, and two days later got to a final set tiebreak against Djoker? Federer was almost 38 at the time. We can go through their careers and see that Roger dominated Novak when Novak was young and that changed when Roger began to decline and Novak hit his peak. But even still, Roger has a great record against Rafa since 2014, despite Rafa being the more successful of the two. In some ways, that rivalry is the reverse of the one with Novak, where young Rafa was on top at the beginning but the veteran player has had the best of it more recently....

To call the most talented and probably the greatest tennis player of all time in the minds of most tennis enthusiasts a mental midget is truly irresponsible thinking.

 

[El Dude]

 

[Fjaka2.0]

To call the most talented and probably the greatest tennis player of all time in the minds of most tennis enthusiasts a mental midget is truly irresponsible thinking.

To pick two words out of many posts without looking at the context is irresponsible.
It can cause serious mental damage.

 

[Fjaka2.0]

View attachment 5706

Wait don’t run away, you opened this thread.

 

[El Dude]

With all seriousness, I think both statements are true:

1) Roger Federer is not a "mental midget" (that is, mentally weak compared to all tennis players).
2) Roger Federer is mentally weak relative to Novak and Rafa.

As for the first, to call him a "mental midget" is to ignore all his accomplishments, which is just silly. You don't win 20 Slams or 103 titles or accrue 312 weeks at number one by being a "mental midget."

I haven't done the research (yet), but my sense is--and I think this is commonly agreed upon--that Roger is more prone to lose a close match, especially in a Slam, than Rafa or Novak. But I'll take a look and back it up with numbers. Who knows, maybe we'll all be surprised (but I don't think so).

 

[El Dude]

All Five Setters:
Roger 33-23 (59%)
Rafa 22-13 (63%)
Novak 35-10 (78%)

Five-Set Finals:
Roger 5-9 (36%)
Rafa 6-4 (60%)
Novak 4-1 (80%)

Five-Set Slams:
Roger 31-17 (65%)
Rafa 19-12 (61%)
Novak 32-9 (78%)

Five-Set Slam Finals:
Roger 4-5 (44%)
Rafa 3-3 (50%)
Novak 4-1 (80%)

Five-Set Slams vs. Top 5 Opponents
Roger 4-8 (33%)
Rafa 5-3 (63%)
Novak 12-3 (80%)

OK, what strikes me is that while Roger is weaker than Rafa in five-setters, it isn't hugely so. But what really stands out is how good Novak has been.

Conclusion: Roger is not a mental midget, although is mentally weaker than the other two. And more to the point: Novak is a mental giant. His results in five-setters are ridiculously good.

 

[Fjaka2.0]

All Five Setters:
Roger 33-23 (59%)
Rafa 22-13 (63%)
Novak 35-10 (78%)

Five-Set Finals:
Roger 5-9 (36%)
Rafa 6-4 (60%)
Novak 4-1 (80%)

Five-Set Slams:
Roger 31-17 (65%)
Rafa 19-12 (61%)
Novak 32-9 (78%)

Five-Set Slam Finals:
Roger 4-5 (44%)
Rafa 3-3 (50%)
Novak 4-1 (80%)

Five-Set Slams vs. Top 5 Opponents
Roger 4-8 (33%)
Rafa 5-3 (63%)
Novak 12-3 (80%)

OK, what strikes me is that while Roger is weaker than Rafa in five-setters, it isn't hugely so. But what really stands out is how good Novak has been.

Conclusion: Roger is not a mental midget, although is mentally weaker than the other two. And more to the point: Novak is a mental giant. His results in five-setters are ridiculously good.

Thank you for your help.
Interesting stats as usual.
In a normal discussion I would never call Roger a mental midget. he’s a great champion and technically the most talented of the three.

 

[El Dude]

Novak vs. Roger in Five-Setters
2010 US Open SF: Win 5-7-6-1 5-7 6-2 7-5
2011 US Open SF: Win 6-7 (7) 4-6 6-3 6-2 7-5
2014 Wimbledon F: Win 6-7 (7) 6-4 7-6(4) 5-7 6-4
2019 Wimbledon F: Win 7-6 (5) 1-6 7-6 (4) 4-6 13-12

Novak vs. Rafa in Five-Setters
2012 AO F: Win 5-7 6-4 6-2 6-7(5) 7-5
2013 RG SF: Loss 6-4 3-6 6-1 6-7(3) 9-7
2019 Wimbledon SF: Win 6-4 3-6 7-6(9) 3-6 10-8

Rafa vs Roger in Five-Setters
2005 Miami Masters F: Loss 2-6 6-7(4) 7-6 (5) 6-3 6-1
2006 Rome Masters F: Win 6-7 (0), 7-6 (5), 6-4, 2-6 7-6 (5)
2007 Wimbledon F: Loss 7-6(7) 4-6 7-6(3) 2-6 6-2
2008 Wimbledon F: Win 6-4 6-4 6-7(5) 6-7(8) 9-7
2009 Australian Open F: Win 7-5 3-6 7-6(3) 3-6 6-2
2017 Australian Open F: Loss 6-4 2-6 6-1 3-6 6-3

So overall between the three:
Novak: 6-1 (2-1 vs Rafa, 4-0 vs Roger)
Rafa: 4-5 (1-2 vs Novak, 3-3 vs Roger)
Roger: 3-7 (0-4 vs Novak, 3-3 vs Roger)

I was surprised that Roger and Rafa are tied in five-setters. I suppose some would quibble with the inclusion of the two Masters, but even without them it would be 2-2.

 

[El Dude]

Thank you for your help.
Interesting stats as usual.
In a normal discussion I would never call Roger a mental midget. he’s a great champion and technically the most talented of the three.

No problem - another one above.

I agree with you, which is why those tight losses are so painful. If tennis players were robots, then Roger would be the clear GOAT. But they're human beings, and both Rafa and especially Novak have the competitive edge.

The numbers paint a clear picture: that Novak is just so damn mentally strong, and has broken Roger (and Rafa) repeatedly. I think he embodies the idea that, as a general rule, great defense beats similarly great offense.

In a way, Novak and Roger are inverse to each other. I think Roger is as good at offense as Novak is at defense, and as good at defense as Novak is at offense, but the defensive edge--which perhaps requires a greater portion of mental strength than offense does--gives Novak the edge. Roger is actually an excellent defender, just not as good as Rafa and Novak. And both Rafa and Novak are excellent offensive players, just not as good as Roger.

Or to put it another way, Novak is the hardest player to beat - perhaps in tennis history. He just doesn't go down. People complain about the "walkabout," but the numbers--at least in five-setters--tell a different story.

 

[Kieran]

All Five Setters:
Roger 33-23 (59%)
Rafa 22-13 (63%)
Novak 35-10 (78%)

Five-Set Finals:
Roger 5-9 (36%)
Rafa 6-4 (60%)
Novak 4-1 (80%)

Five-Set Slams:
Roger 31-17 (65%)
Rafa 19-12 (61%)
Novak 32-9 (78%)

Five-Set Slam Finals:
Roger 4-5 (44%)
Rafa 3-3 (50%)
Novak 4-1 (80%)

Five-Set Slams vs. Top 5 Opponents
Roger 4-8 (33%)
Rafa 5-3 (63%)
Novak 12-3 (80%)

OK, what strikes me is that while Roger is weaker than Rafa in five-setters, it isn't hugely so. But what really stands out is how good Novak has been.

Conclusion: Roger is not a mental midget, although is mentally weaker than the other two. And more to the point: Novak is a mental giant. His results in five-setters are ridiculously good.

These are interesting stats, but could it be that Roger has won more matches earlier than the fifth, because mentally he was just too tough to give his opponent a way into the match? And that maybe his fifth set record is poor due to stamina, as opposed to him being mentally weaker?

 

[Fjaka2.0]

Novak vs. Roger in Five-Setters
2010 US Open SF: Win 5-7-6-1 5-7 6-2 7-5
2011 US Open SF: Win 6-7 (7) 4-6 6-3 6-2 7-5
2014 Wimbledon F: Win 6-7 (7) 6-4 7-6(4) 5-7 6-4
2019 Wimbledon F: Win 7-6 (5) 1-6 7-6 (4) 4-6 13-12

Novak vs. Rafa in Five-Setters
2012 AO F: Win 5-7 6-4 6-2 6-7(5) 7-5
2013 RG SF: Loss 6-4 3-6 6-1 6-7(3) 9-7
2019 Wimbledon SF: Win 6-4 3-6 7-6(9) 3-6 10-8

Rafa vs Roger in Five-Setters
2005 Miami Masters F: Loss 2-6 6-7(4) 7-6 (5) 6-3 6-1
2006 Rome Masters F: Win 6-7 (0), 7-6 (5), 6-4, 2-6 7-6 (5)
2007 Wimbledon F: Loss 7-6(7) 4-6 7-6(3) 2-6 6-2
2008 Wimbledon F: Win 6-4 6-4 6-7(5) 6-7(8) 9-7
2009 Australian Open F: Win 7-5 3-6 7-6(3) 3-6 6-2
2017 Australian Open F: Loss 6-4 2-6 6-1 3-6 6-3

So overall between the three:
Novak: 6-1 (2-1 vs Rafa, 4-0 vs Roger)
Rafa: 4-5 (1-2 vs Novak, 3-3 vs Roger)
Roger: 3-7 (0-4 vs Novak, 3-3 vs Roger)

I was surprised that Roger and Rafa are tied in five-setters. I suppose some would quibble with the inclusion of the two Masters, but even without them it would be 2-2.

This is even more interesting.

 

[El Dude]

These are interesting stats, but could it be that Roger has won more matches earlier than the fifth, because mentally he was just too tough to give his opponent a way into the match? And that maybe his fifth set record is poor due to stamina, as opposed to him being mentally weaker?

Well, we've talked about this before, but my sense is that Roger is tough as nails when he's ahead, but struggles more in close situations. In addition to the offense/defense matchup problem I mentioned above, this is the other major reason why he is below the other two in matchups. IMO.

This pattern of all three is reflected on the macro level of their careers. Roger emerged as the best of his generation in 2004 and utterly dominated them from that point on. Just a year before, in 2003, it looked like several guys were going to be equal, but Roger far surpassed them all. He coasted as the top player for four years. Rafa hung in there and pounced when he got his chance, and then had several surges when he reached the top. Novak was the third wheel behind the other two, seemingly always on the outside looking in for a good four years, and then finally put it all together in 2011.

Meaning, once Roger had not one but two guys of similar talent level--something he didn't experience in his early years--he had a hard time adjusting. He didn't have the early training that the other two did, in terms of being the third wheel. Early on he rose steadily and once he got to the top was able to maintain it, because he was just better than everyone else. I mean, one could argue that Safin, at least, and maybe Nalbandian, were close in talent, but they had other issues. But Rafa and Novak not only were incredibly tenacious, but both were defense-first players, and could neutralize Roger's offense. Roger stubbornly refused to adjust his game, because he had been imprinted with his early dominance. He finally figured it out with Rafa, although I'm still unclear how. With Novak, it feels like almost every match is close, which benefits Novak because he can wait Roger out until he blows it.

 

[Kieran]

Well, we've talked about this before, but my sense is that Roger is tough as nails when he's ahead, but struggles more in close situations. In addition to the offense/defense matchup problem I mentioned above, this is the other major reason why he is below the other two in matchups. IMO.

This pattern of all three is reflected on the macro level of their careers. Roger emerged as the best of his generation in 2004 and utterly dominated them from that point on. Just a year before, in 2003, it looked like several guys were going to be equal, but Roger far surpassed them all. He coasted as the top player for four years. Rafa hung in there and pounced when he got his chance, and then had several surges when he reached the top. Novak was the third wheel behind the other two, seemingly always on the outside looking in for a good four years, and then finally put it all together in 2011.

Meaning, once Roger had not one but two guys of similar talent level--something he didn't experience in his early years--he had a hard time adjusting. He didn't have the early training that the other two did, in terms of being the third wheel. Early on he rose steadily and once he got to the top was able to maintain it, because he was just better than everyone else. I mean, one could argue that Safin, at least, and maybe Nalbandian, were close in talent, but they had other issues. But Rafa and Novak not only were incredibly tenacious, but both were defense-first players, and could neutralize Roger's offense. Roger stubbornly refused to adjust his game, because he had been imprinted with his early dominance. He finally figured it out with Rafa, although I'm still unclear how. With Novak, it feels like almost every match is close, which benefits Novak because he can wait Roger out until he blows it.

In terms their personal match ups, I think Novak has beaten Roger in 10 of the last 14 matches - but this is to be as expected as it was expected that Roger would win more of their early matches. Their H2H basically comes down to who reached more matches against the other despite not in their own peak.

I definitely agree that Roger had it “easier “ than the others when it came to his own generation, which threw up nobody against him as a meaningful, existential sort of threat, then Rafa came along ahead of time, in a sense to plug the gap. I don’t think this benefited Rafa in the long term, he may have been better off being left to develop slowly, like Novak, but then again, Rafa’s been such an exception, which can tell?

 

[the AntiPusher]

To pick two words out of many posts without looking at the context is irresponsible.
It can cause serious mental damage.

Kieran said the same thing yet you responded to my post.. Always the negative vibes from you the negative vibes..no worries..no prob