Time to crown Novak the GOAT?

[El Dude]

One thing that comes to mind when considering historic greats is that we are (or at least I am) less prone to fret over who is or is not greater. I mean, I think about it and even dabble with systems and such, but when I think of Gonzales or Laver or Rosewall, I'm more interested in the quality of their different flavors of greatness and less concerned about who was or wasn't greater. Or rather, I might informally rank them, but it doesn't have the sense of heaviness around it. It is seen as just good fun, a silly activity in the context of greater appreciation for them as historic greats.

Our fandom of the current guys brings an element to it that is lacking from considering guys from decades ago--we're not tribes of Pancho-ites or Rodlings--but I'm guessing that a lot of this will soften in time, especially as they retire one by one, and we (re)learn to appreciate them more for who they are, rather than nitpick and agonize over lost Slams and the fine points of statistical comparisons.

That said, I do think that eventually Novak will separate himself from the other two enough to be considered, at least, the first among near-equals by the vast majority of fans, but the more dominant feeling for all three will be one of awe and appreciation for their uniqueness and, I think, unparalleled greatness, at least as a group.

And the bottom line is, no matter how much Novak pulls ahead, no one is every going to think of the current period now in its final years as the "Novak Era." It will be the Era of the Big Three (or whatever they're called in the future).

 

[Moxie]

Which is sort of what I was saying, Champ.

 

[Fjaka2.0]

Novak will not separate himself from the other two, he did already.
What he most likely will do, is to widen the gap between them.

 

[BratSrbin]

Novak will not separate himself from the other two, he did already.
What he most likely will do, is to widen the gap between them.

One thing is for sure, Nole's fans did not start and did not participate in the GOAT story for a long time. Federer's fans started it when they believed that his records were unattainable. Nadal's fans followed the story a little more moderately, but they also warmed it up, expecting that their favorite would be declared the greatest of all time in tennis.

Now Nole has broken a huge number of Federer's (once untouchable) records. Various stories are being invented just not to acknowledge Nole's complete dominance and his certain seeding to the throne of the best. We remember that recent shameful attempt by Rolex with that advertisement "about the beauty of his tennis".

I fully support the position of man above, Fjaka, that Nole only deepens the gap between him and these two closest ones who were also candidates for this flattering title - gratest of all time, GOAT.

Maybe in the near future there will be someone who will throw Nole into the shadows, but until then we must accept the fact that he is the one - GOAT.

 

[Moxie]

One thing is for sure, Nole's fans did not start and did not participate in the GOAT story for a long time.

Probably that would be because it looked like a long-shot for a long time?

Federer's fans started it when they believed that his records were unattainable. Nadal's fans followed the story a little more moderately, but they also warmed it up, expecting that their favorite would be declared the greatest of all time in tennis.

The whole GOAT thing goes back to Pete Sampras, I think.

 

[BratSrbin]

“It’s unreal what he has been able to do this year and in the past ten years. The passion he has for the game is great,” Federer said.
Can you guess who he was talking about?

'It's unreal what he has been able to do this year,' Roger Federer lauds Novak Djokovic for an amazing season

Novak Djokovic has had one of the most dominant seasons of tennis in recent times. The Serbian maestro is currently in a league of his own and is the best

firstsportz.com

 

[tented]

The whole GOAT thing goes back to Pete Sampras, I think.

Yes, the Sampras fans were the first (in the recent era, at least) to bring up the GOAT discussion, as Roger approached Sampras’s then-record 14 majors.

 

[Fiero425]

Yes, the Sampras fans were the first (in the recent era, at least) to bring up the GOAT discussion, as Roger approached Sampras’s then-record 14 majors.

Career Grand Slam hype went with Andre Agassi after he completed his way back when! It's another moniker to elevate a fave player IMO!

 

[El Dude]

Which is sort of what I was saying, Champ.

Yes, though I think where we differ is Novak's placement as the first among near-equals (with an emphasis on near, as he edges ahead of the other two). You also like to emphasize the Fedal era with Novak arriving later on with less panache, when I think in the future it will be seen as the Big Three era.

 

[Moxie]

Yes, though I think where we differ is Novak's placement as the first among near-equals (with an emphasis on near, as he edges ahead of the other two). You also like to emphasize the Fedal era with Novak arriving later on with less panache, when I think in the future it will be seen as the Big Three era.

You misunderstand my position. That is my argument for those who would have him as the singular GOAT or GOTE. I have said many times the 3 will be spoken of together in this era. Djokovic will have more records or extend his records before he's through, I don't doubt that. My point in response to tented saying that, down the road, people will see his name at the top of the lists and forget the rest, was that it's not like we forget around here, even the old musty ones, and of this era there are mountains of video record and volumes written. I don't think the context will be lost.

 

[El Dude]

You misunderstand my position. That is my argument for those who would have him as the singular GOAT or GOTE. I have said many times the 3 will be spoken of together in this era. Djokovic will have more records or extend his records before he's through, I don't doubt that. My point in response to tented saying that, down the road, people will see his name at the top of the lists and forget the rest, was that it's not like we forget around here, even the old musty ones, and of this era there are mountains of video record and volumes written. I don't think the context will be lost.

OK, I agree with that - certainly Roger and Rafa won't be forgotten (and I have a hard time believing @tented actually thinks that).

I mean, didn't Steffi Graf sort of surpass Navratilova, who surpassed Evert? And no one has forgotten Martina or Evert--not to mention, Margaret Court. Serena has arguably surpassed them all, and Steffi etc aren't forgotten, and some still see her or Martina as the GOAT.

But I think what I am saying is that Novak can be the singular GOAT and the first among near-equals of historic greats. Meaning, that the premise that he is the best candidate for singular GOAT--which was my contention that started this thread--is not antithetical to the idea that, in the bigger picture, he's the first among a trio of greats that stand above everyone else (or, at least, everyone else since Laver).

 

[tented]

OK, I agree with that - certainly Roger and Rafa won't be forgotten (and I have a hard time believing @tented actually thinks that).

Correct, I don’t believe that.

My point about looking at the tops of columns of stats and seeing Novak’s name again and again, therefore thinking he’s the GOAT, mainly had to do with the more distant future (in 50-60 years, a lot of current tennis fans won’t be around anymore) and non-tennis fans who are looking at the stats. For example, if I were to go to Wikipedia right now, and look at stats for a sport I don’t know anything about, then see a name at the tops of columns, I would assume that person is the GOAT.

 

[El Dude]

Correct, I don’t believe that.

My point about looking at the tops of columns of stats and seeing Novak’s name again and again, therefore thinking he’s the GOAT, mainly had to do with the more distant future (in 50-60 years, a lot of current tennis fans won’t be around anymore) and non-tennis fans who are looking at the stats. For example, if I were to go to Wikipedia right now, and look at stats for a sport I don’t know anything about, then see a name at the tops of columns, I would assume that person is the GOAT.

Ah, right. And of course it isn't absurd to think that if one guy leads most important categories, that one guy is the GOAT. Of course a deeper reading is a good thing, but it still makes sense.

My lady friend has never heard of Novak Djokovic, though knows who Anna Kournikova is.

 

[Fiero425]

Ah, right. And of course it isn't absurd to think that if one guy leads most important categories, that one guy is the GOAT. Of course a deeper reading is a good thing, but it still makes sense.

My lady friend has never heard of Novak Djokovic, though knows who Anna Kournikova is.

At one time in the past, no one got more hits online than Anna K. It was the main reason Martina Hingis dropped her as a dub's partner!

 

[Moxie]

OK, I agree with that - certainly Roger and Rafa won't be forgotten (and I have a hard time believing @tented actually thinks that).

I mean, didn't Steffi Graf sort of surpass Navratilova, who surpassed Evert? And no one has forgotten Martina or Evert--not to mention, Margaret Court. Serena has arguably surpassed them all, and Steffi etc aren't forgotten, and some still see her or Martina as the GOAT.

But I think what I am saying is that Novak can be the singular GOAT and the first among near-equals of historic greats. Meaning, that the premise that he is the best candidate for singular GOAT--which was my contention that started this thread--is not antithetical to the idea that, in the bigger picture, he's the first among a trio of greats that stand above everyone else (or, at least, everyone else since Laver).

Right, but you keep saying that Novak can be the "first among equals," and also say that there should always be the 3, and that there IS no singular GOAT. I thought that was your position. I know you keep saying, "But if there were." But which is it?

 

[Moxie]

Correct, I don’t believe that.

My point about looking at the tops of columns of stats and seeing Novak’s name again and again, therefore thinking he’s the GOAT, mainly had to do with the more distant future (in 50-60 years, a lot of current tennis fans won’t be around anymore) and non-tennis fans who are looking at the stats. For example, if I were to go to Wikipedia right now, and look at stats for a sport I don’t know anything about, then see a name at the tops of columns, I would assume that person is the GOAT.

I get that, but I'm not really talking about casual observers. Frankly, I don't care about them. Random people that don't pay attention might think that Anna Kournakova was a significant player, based on her fame, and what Dude and Fiero just said. I'm not that interested in what non-fans or casual observers think, even in 50 years. Look, even here, we have people debating Pele v Maradona, and I don't have to remind you that a) Pele's real career was over very close to 50 years ago, and b) this is a tennis forum. Don't even get people started on Jordan and LeBron. My point is that, for people who care about tennis, there will be lots of fine points in this era. Yes, Novak is running towards the tape, at the end. And doing a very fine job of it. I'm just saying that this era will forever be discussed, maybe not to the point of the same vitriol we do here. And maybe we're all saying the same thing. I'm only saying that the notion that 50 or 60 years from now it will come down to a list of stats doesn't ring true to me, if we're still talking about Pancho Gonzalez, even now.

 

[El Dude]

Right, but you keep saying that Novak can be the "first among equals," and also say that there should always be the 3, and that there IS no singular GOAT. I thought that was your position. I know you keep saying, "But if there were." But which is it?

I'm saying BOTH, because I think both are valid perspectives, and because I think "both" is more truthful than one or the other.

But this is long-term pattern of mine: I get a cognitive boner for Hegelian dialectics.

 

[shawnbm]

All this first among equals talk has not me thinking the Petrine Office! Pax vobiscum

 

[El Dude]

All this first among equals talk has not me thinking the Petrine Office! Pax vobiscum

Ha! I had to look that one up.

 

[Kieran]

All this first among equals talk has not me thinking the Petrine Office! Pax vobiscum

Yeah, but we ain’t gonna crown The Buddhist of Monte Carlo as Pope!