The Rankings Thread (ATP)

[MargaretMcAleer]

A most important stat,
Novak Djokovic will begin his 377th week as No 1 player Monday 20th February, ties with Steffi Graf all time ranking record for most weeks at No 1!

 

[El Dude]

A most important stat,
Novak Djokovic will begin his 377th week as No 1 player Monday 20th February, ties with Steffi Graf all time ranking record for most weeks at No 1!

So impressive. Or to put that another way, in two weeks (379) Novak will have as many weeks at #1 as Rafa and McEnroe combined.

 

[Fiero425]

So impressive. Or to put that another way, in two weeks (379) Novak will have as many weeks at #1 as Rafa and McEnroe combined.

It confuses me so much that die-hard Nadal fans can overlook that HUGE shortcoming of wks @ #1! There are so many players ahead of him!

 

[MargaretMcAleer]

Well it was a huge shock to me that 'die hard Novak Fans' did not know that Novak tied with Steffi Graf on Monday 20th February all time ranking record at 377 weeks lol!

 

[Kieran]

Well it was a huge shock to me that 'die hard Novak Fans' did not know that Novak tied with Steffi Graf on Monday 20th February all time ranking record at 377 weeks lol!

They probably measure it in bananas..

 

[Moxie]

It confuses me so much that die-hard Nadal fans can overlook that HUGE shortcoming of wks @ #1! There are so many players ahead of him!

Because there are only so many weeks at #1 to be had, and Roger and Novak soaked up a lot them. One (Roger) before Rafa had even cut his teeth or then reached his prime, gained a lot of weeks at #1, and the other (Novak) rather with no one else to challenge, when Rafa was waning, and more often off with injury. Both had the advantage that Rafa lost so much time to injury. And, even given all that, there AREN'T really that many players ranked ahead of Nadal, in terms of all-time weeks at #1. You say there are "so many." Nadal is ranked #6. Only Connors, Lendl, Sampras, Federer and Djokovic are ahead of him. Not so many, really. And given the time he's had to take off of the tour. Also, given that he's missed more Majors and tournaments than either Novak or Roger. It's not so much of a shortcoming as you (or your emoticon, or your misinformation) imply.

Also, while it gets short shrift around here, Rafa has the record of consecutive weeks in the Top Ten, and by a lot. 909 to 2nd-ranked Connors with 788. That's a difference of 121 weeks...almost 2 full years. Roger is 3rd, with basically another year behind Connors, (i.e., 3 years behind Rafa,) and Novak is 6th, with 555 consecutive weeks in the Top Ten, which is about 6 and 3/4's years less than Rafa of never dropping out of the Top Ten. Rafa fans have had to endure Federer and Novak fans pressing the "consistency" factor of weeks at #1, and consecutive SF/QFs at Majors and etc., so I will present this one, for consistency points. And, as I mention, it's not even close.

 

[Kieran]

It confuses me so much that die-hard Nadal fans can overlook that HUGE shortcoming of wks @ #1! There are so many players ahead of him!

It confuses me that diehard Rafa haters haven’t noticed that he’s barely played 2 full seasons in a row since he won his first GS title, and in that same period, has had to skip more than two whole seasons worth of GS tourneys, withdrew from others, and a whole bunch of other tournaments too. I’m at a loss to know how he could have gotten more weeks in the circumstances.

Novak and Roger have never been injured, apart from that time Novak had SARS…

 

[Fiero425]

It confuses me that diehard Rafa haters haven’t noticed that he’s barely played 2 full seasons in a row since he won his first GS title, and in that same period, has had to skip more than two whole seasons worth of GS tourneys, withdrew from others, and a whole bunch of other tournaments too. I’m at a loss to know how he could have gotten more weeks in the circumstances.

Novak and Roger have never been injured, apart from that time Novak had SARS…

What are we supposed to do; CRY? Why should anyone outside of Rafa's family and team care? If I'm a hater, cool! I think of Rafa's 2010 when he was on top of the tour alone! Unfortunately for your argument, his run wasn't cut off by an injury; more in the guise of the future GOAT, Djokovic! They played in final after final in 2011, including 3 of 4 majors into '12 AO! He's an athlete like any other! We're supposed to give him dispensation because he's injury prone? IMO he does it to himself getting into wars with every player no matter their rank due to that stupid, defensive way he plays the game; same for Murray! Those typical aches and pains didn't affect Federer due to his more aggressive style and Novak kept himself on the court "stretching!" Rafa fans need to find another excuse for his record being so lacking in comparison to other greats of the game!

 

[Kieran]

What are we supposed to do; CRY? Why should anyone outside of Rafa's family and team care? If I'm a hater, cool! I think of Rafa's 2010 when he was on top of the tour alone! Unfortunately for your argument, his run wasn't cut off by an injury; more in the guise of the future GOAT, Djokovic! They played in final after final in 2011, including 3 of 4 majors into '12 AO! He's an athlete like any other! We're supposed to give him dispensation because he's injury prone? IMO he does it to himself getting into wars with every player no matter their rank due to that stupid, defensive way he plays the game; same for Murray! Those typical aches and pains didn't affect Federer due to his more aggressive style and Novak kept himself on the court "stretching!" Rafa fans need to find another excuse for his record being so lacking in comparison to other greats of the game!

You’re confused, brother, you’re going around the houses without addressing the issue, which is wise from your perspective - but I love your rants

 

[Nadalfan2013]

What are we supposed to do; CRY? Why should anyone outside of Rafa's family and team care? If I'm a hater, cool! I think of Rafa's 2010 when he was on top of the tour alone! Unfortunately for your argument, his run wasn't cut off by an injury; more in the guise of the future GOAT, Djokovic! They played in final after final in 2011, including 3 of 4 majors into '12 AO! He's an athlete like any other! We're supposed to give him dispensation because he's injury prone? IMO he does it to himself getting into wars with every player no matter their rank due to that stupid, defensive way he plays the game; same for Murray! Those typical aches and pains didn't affect Federer due to his more aggressive style and Novak kept himself on the court "stretching!" Rafa fans need to find another excuse for his record being so lacking in comparison to other greats of the game!

Down 7-11 h2h in slams against his main rival?

Only a bronze medal at the tournament that he wants to win the most?

That's your GOAT?

 

[BratSrbin]

Also, while it gets short shrift around here, Rafa has the record of consecutive weeks in the Top Ten, and by a lot. 909 to 2nd-ranked Connors with 788. That's a difference of 121 weeks...almost 2 full years.

There are 52 weeks in a year, as far as I know. Maybe we, No1e fans, have learned it wrong?

 

[BratSrbin]

Because there are only so many weeks at #1 to be had, and Roger and Novak soaked up a lot them. One (Roger) before Rafa had even cut his teeth or then reached his prime, gained a lot of weeks at #1, and the other (Novak) rather with no one else to challenge, when Rafa was waning, and more often off with injury. Both had the advantage that Rafa lost so much time to injury. And, even given all that, there AREN'T really that many players ranked ahead of Nadal, in terms of all-time weeks at #1. You say there are "so many." Nadal is ranked #6. Only Connors, Lendl, Sampras, Federer and Djokovic are ahead of him. Not so many, really. And given the time he's had to take off of the tour. Also, given that he's missed more Majors and tournaments than either Novak or Roger. It's not so much of a shortcoming as you (or your emoticon, or your misinformation) imply.

Also, while it gets short shrift around here, Rafa has the record of consecutive weeks in the Top Ten, and by a lot. 909 to 2nd-ranked Connors with 788. That's a difference of 121 weeks...almost 2 full years. Roger is 3rd, with basically another year behind Connors, (i.e., 3 years behind Rafa,) and Novak is 6th, with 555 consecutive weeks in the Top Ten, which is about 6 and 3/4's years less than Rafa of never dropping out of the Top Ten. Rafa fans have had to endure Federer and Novak fans pressing the "consistency" factor of weeks at #1, and consecutive SF/QFs at Majors and etc., so I will present this one, for consistency points. And, as I mention, it's not even close.

When there is no rain, the hail is also good, people say in my country. If not the first, then at least the tenth.

 

[Fiero425]

When there is no rain, the hail is also good, people say in my country. If not the first, then at least the tenth.

Rafa's legacy has to be saved somehow, even w/ something as lame as being in the top 10 the most weeks! Fedal is being wiped out of the record books everyday Novak is allowed to play, adding something else to his resume! The C-19 ban last season just postponed the inevitable! He'll probably get to 400 weeks as #1, maybe get another Wimbledon, & has a real chance in Paris!

 

[El Dude]

Because there are only so many weeks at #1 to be had, and Roger and Novak soaked up a lot them. One (Roger) before Rafa had even cut his teeth or then reached his prime, gained a lot of weeks at #1, and the other (Novak) rather with no one else to challenge, when Rafa was waning, and more often off with injury. Both had the advantage that Rafa lost so much time to injury. And, even given all that, there AREN'T really that many players ranked ahead of Nadal, in terms of all-time weeks at #1. You say there are "so many." Nadal is ranked #6. Only Connors, Lendl, Sampras, Federer and Djokovic are ahead of him. Not so many, really. And given the time he's had to take off of the tour. Also, given that he's missed more Majors and tournaments than either Novak or Roger. It's not so much of a shortcoming as you (or your emoticon, or your misinformation) imply.

Also, while it gets short shrift around here, Rafa has the record of consecutive weeks in the Top Ten, and by a lot. 909 to 2nd-ranked Connors with 788. That's a difference of 121 weeks...almost 2 full years. Roger is 3rd, with basically another year behind Connors, (i.e., 3 years behind Rafa,) and Novak is 6th, with 555 consecutive weeks in the Top Ten, which is about 6 and 3/4's years less than Rafa of never dropping out of the Top Ten. Rafa fans have had to endure Federer and Novak fans pressing the "consistency" factor of weeks at #1, and consecutive SF/QFs at Majors and etc., so I will present this one, for consistency points. And, as I mention, it's not even close.

That top 10 record is a great one, and don't forget the equally (if not more) impressive 596 weeks in the top 2 - that's 68 more weeks than Roger (528) and 72 more than Novak (524), with everyone else below 400.

Roger gets the edge on top 5 - he's at 859 - but Rafa is close at 837, and has a good chance of passing him. Novak's third at 729, Connors 4th at 705, and everyone else is below 600.

When I've dabbled with various GOAT systems, I've considered these various ranking cut-offs, although it becomes tricky, because what should and should not be included? Weeks at #1, top 2, top 5, and top 10 are all important, and all different angles on greatness.

As far as injury is concerned, I think there is no doubt that Rafa has suffered more injuries than Roger or Novak, and it isn't unreasonable to think his record would be even better if he had had better health. But it becomes speculation, and we can't give him credit for what he "might have" done - in a similar way that we can't give Borg credit for what he "might have" won if he hadn't retired when he did. Nor should we penalize Novak for what he did actually do, which is accumulate a huge number of weeks at #1.

To put it another way, we can't simply replace those "As" (absent) at Slams with "Ws" for wins for Rafa, and I don't think you are suggesting that. But, as I think you are saying, we can imagine that he likely would have had more ATP points, and thus probably more weeks at #1. Meaning, we shouldn't rely on "209 weeks at #1" too much as an indicator of his greatness, without considering weeks in the top 2, 5, and 10, all of which helps balance things out due to injury.

 

[Moxie]

That top 10 record is a great one, and don't forget the equally (if not more) impressive 596 weeks in the top 2 - that's 68 more weeks than Roger (528) and 72 more than Novak (524), with everyone else below 400.

Roger gets the edge on top 5 - he's at 859 - but Rafa is close at 837, and has a good chance of passing him. Novak's third at 729, Connors 4th at 705, and everyone else is below 600.

When I've dabbled with various GOAT systems, I've considered these various ranking cut-offs, although it becomes tricky, because what should and should not be included? Weeks at #1, top 2, top 5, and top 10 are all important, and all different angles on greatness.

As far as injury is concerned, I think there is no doubt that Rafa has suffered more injuries than Roger or Novak, and it isn't unreasonable to think his record would be even better if he had had better health. But it becomes speculation, and we can't give him credit for what he "might have" done - in a similar way that we can't give Borg credit for what he "might have" won if he hadn't retired when he did. Nor should we penalize Novak for what he did actually do, which is accumulate a huge number of weeks at #1.

To put it another way, we can't simply replace those "As" (absent) at Slams with "Ws" for wins for Rafa, and I don't think you are suggesting that. But, as I think you are saying, we can imagine that he likely would have had more ATP points, and thus probably more weeks at #1. Meaning, we shouldn't rely on "209 weeks at #1" too much as an indicator of his greatness, without considering weeks in the top 2, 5, and 10, all of which helps balance things out due to injury.

As you know, I was responding to Fiero's inflammatory and inaccurate post above. You are correct to say that I wasn't guaranteeing wins in tournaments he didn't play, but healthy elite players play and win enough to accumulate more points, and generally a lot more. Rafa lost his #1 to injury at least once. I'm pretty sure that Roger never did, nor Novak.

A lot of Federer fans sneered at Rafa's record weeks at #2 for years. (I know that's not what you're doing.) But Rafa got to #2 against Roger at just 19, and stuck to him like glue until he finally matured enough to pass him, which took 3 1/2 years. And then they still traded 1-2 for another 3 years? Djokovic didn't supersede them until 2011. Which is why I find grouping Rafa and Novak a bit too much. Novak was definitely a late-bloomer, in elite terms, for all of his early promise. It wasn't that Rafa and Novak were there to torture Roger. It was all Rafa for quite a while, from 2004-5 torturing Roger. Novak didn't really crack the code until 2011. Miles on the odometer.

This is the rankings thread, and I'll try to stick to that, but Nadal staying in the top 10 this long, while all the other big 3-4 fell out quite a while ago, (only to recover, for Roger and Novak,) is a big deal, IMO.

Medvedev could push Nadal back another notch by winning Doha tomorrow. He'd pass him by 5 points, and push him to #8.

Next week, Meddie and FAA play in Dubai, as will Hurkacz, who is #11. They will all gain points. And when Rafa doesn't play IW (where he defends finals points) and Miami, as I expect he won't, more than a few players would have to be abysmal for him not to drop out of the Top 10. Oh, well, magnificent run!

 

[El Dude]

Yep. All good things to pass. It is/was sad to see Roger retire, but tennis continues. When Rafa retires, rest assured that there's plenty of fun to be had...unless you want to go the way of certain posters here and promulgate Rafaldian Theology for years to come, focusing only on his "heirs" from the academy ;-).

 

[Moxie]

Yep. All good things to pass. It is/was sad to see Roger retire, but tennis continues. When Rafa retires, rest assured that there's plenty of fun to be had...unless you want to go the way of certain posters here and promulgate Rafaldian Theology for years to come, focusing only on his "heirs" from the academy ;-).

That would be genuinely weird, if that were one's only motivation for backing a player. But there are some odd trolls out there. I do, however, expect the 3-headed GOAT conversation to extend past all of their retirements. That said, I agree with you that the future of men's tennis looks bright and fun, even after the big 3 are gone. I hope it even brings some old friends back to the game, once they get over losing their faves. There are plenty of Fed fans I'd love to see back with new favorites. It's going to be weird, after so many years of watching these guys, and our (mostly) friendly debates and obsessions over them, but most of us do find our way back for the love of tennis.

 

[MargaretMcAleer]

ATP Top 10 Monday 27th February,
1. Djokovic
2. Alcaraz
3. Tsitsipas
4. Ruud
5. Fritz (+2)
6. Rublev (-1)
7. Medvedev (+1)
8. Nadal (-2)
9. FAA
10. Rune

 

[Fiero425]

I wondered how they'd judge the rankings if Djokovic & Alcaraz were tied at 6980! Commentators say if Carlito goes on to win this Rio final over Norrie, Nole will continue being #1 since his points have more quality being from his AO win last month!

 

[El Dude]

I wondered how they'd judge the rankings if Djokovic & Alcaraz were tied at 6980! Commentators say if Carlito goes on to win this Rio final over Norrie, Nole will continue being #1 since his points have more quality being from his AO win last month!

There are tiebreaker rules, but I'm too lazy to do a search. I think Grand Slam points are involved, though.