The Rankings Thread (ATP)

[Federberg]

That's interestingly researched. I get your point about Zverev's height, but players are getting taller, and the one's that move well, like Zverev, do get looked at favorably. Safin is the original poster child for Big Man tennis. He was 6'4"/bordering on 6'5" and he moved really well. Everyone agrees, I think, that he underachieved with 2 Majors. That was his head, not his movement. (And a bit of injuries.) Zverev gets compared to Safin, and I think rightly. He's still light, and not filled out, but he moves so much better than some of the guys you think of who top 6'4". Men's tennis is getting taller, and I don't think his height will be to his detriment.

As to your last, I don't agree that he does nothing special. Serve, obviously, including 2nd, and a terrific 2hBh. He'll get better at the net, especially with his brother's help. As to how many Slams he wins, that's anyone's guess, but we'll all be shocked if he doesn't win any.

Yup, I think it's the height and movement combo that's been hard to find. Safin and Delpo definitely in that category. As you say Safin was held back by his head, while for Delpo it's been injury. Let's see how Zverev evolves, his serve and backhand are monstrous, and his mentality looks just about right. He's a prolific winner, funnily enough the player he most reminds me of in this regard is Delpo. There was a time where Delpo was just hoovering up the smaller tournaments. I don't think Sascha has any problems winning. Definitely a multi-slam winner in the making on his current trajectory. And it could easily start next year

 

[GameSetAndMath]

ElDude has done a lot of studies based on player's age. Now, let me tell you something based on player's height.

From 1985 to 2017, of all the slams played only three were won by players 6'5" or taller (JMDP, Cilic and Krajicek).
That is three slams out of about 132 slams, leading to about 2.2% share. Zverev is 6'6".

I was waiting to see whether anyone would point serious flaw in the above argument. There are only 0.5% of people in US (the stat for
other countries should not be too different) who are over 6'5". Assuming the distribution of height of tennis players is same as that
of general population, only 0.5% of tennis players should be over 6'5". Assuming GS trophies can be equally likely be won by
player of any height. The market share of GS trophies won by players whose height is over 6'5" should be only about 0.5%.
But, their actual market share is 2.2". So, the tall players are winning more than they are supposed to win if everything is
uniform.

Look at this book on misused statistics

 

[Jelenafan]

What is the percentage of the male population under 5'9"?

How many Major winners in the last 25 years have been under 5'9", I would be curious to see that comparison.

Even more fun, if you take it down just one or two inches.

 

[DarthFed]

Being tall is only a disadvantage if you move like crap and/or can't handle the low ball at all. Over time most big guys have moved very poorly relative to the best players, simple as that, but not all.
Safin was such an immense talent when you consider his size, movement, and all around game. Tennis hasn't seen that since, not even Del Po pre injury could move as well as Marat or do all the things he could. I'm thinking/hoping Zverev gets there and he clearly has a better head than Safin so he could be dominant if he fulfills his potential.

And I still think my prediction of the future (20-30) years from now that big guys will completely rule the game will ring true. There may be a bunch of Safin 2.0's that aren't crazy

 

[Jelenafan]

Yea, Marat as a 6-4 guy was an incredible mover. That height seemed just over the line from tall to very tall for a top ranked tennis player. What's Murray, 6-3?

Del Potro is 6-6.

To me 6-2 or 6-3 these days seems like the ideal height, ala Gregor Dimitrov, if he ever got his head on straight. Ditto 6-4 Kyrgios.

 

[Federberg]

Finally! A pundit says what we've all been saying....

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/andy-murra...rer-nadal-djokovic-says-mats-wilander-1639520

 

[herios]

New career high on September 18, 2017:

70. Thomas Fabbiano 28y
96. Alexander Bublik 20y

A new young player, same generation like Zverev, makes it into the top 100.
Bublik represents Kazakhstan, former Russian.
Let's see if he sticks and gets a regular member of the main tour.

 

[britbox]

Rankings - 25 Sept 2017

1 (1) Rafa Nadal(Spain) 9465
2 (2) Roger Federer(Switzerland) 7505
3 (3) Andy Murray(Britain) 6790
4 (4) Alexander Zverev(Germany) 4310
5 (5) Marin Cilic(Croatia) 4155
6 (6) Novak Djokovic(Serbia) 4125
7 (7) Dominic Thiem(Austria) 3925
8 (9) Grigor Dimitrov(Bulgaria) 3575
9 (8) Stan Wawrinka(Switzerland) 3540
10 (10) Pablo Carreno(Spain) 2855
11 (11) Milos Raonic(Canada) 2825
12 (12) David Goffin(Belgium) 2650
13 (13) Roberto Bautista(Spain) 2525
14 (14) Kei Nishikori(Japan) 2475
15 (15) Kevin Anderson(South Africa) 2470
16 (16) Sam Querrey(U.S.) 2445
17 (17) John Isner(U.S.) 2425
18 (18) Jo-Wilfried Tsonga(France) 2375
19 (19) Tomas Berdych(Czech Republic) 2355
20 (20) Nick Kyrgios(Australia) 2245
21 (21) Jack Sock(U.S.) 2175
22 (23) Gilles Muller(Luxembourg) 1920
23 (22) Lucas Pouille(France) 1825
24 (24) Juan Martin del Potro(Argentina) 1820
25 (25) Albert Ramos(Spain) 1815
26 (27) Mischa Zverev(Germany) 1664
27 (29) Fabio Fognini(Italy) 1650
28 (26) David Ferrer(Spain) 1615
29 (28) Diego Schwartzman(Argentina) 1585
30 (30) Richard Gasquet(France) 1470
31 (31) Adrian Mannarino(France) 1335
32 (32) Karen Khachanov(Russia) 1330
33 (33) Pablo Cuevas(Uruguay) 1325
34 (34) Philipp Kohlschreiber(Germany) 1305
35 (35) Feliciano Lopez(Spain) 1295
36 (36) Gael Monfils(France) 1285
37 (37) Andrey Rublev(Russia) 1221
38 (41) Benoit Paire(France) 1190
39 (38) Paolo Lorenzi(Italy) 1190
40 (55) Damir Dzumhur(Bosnia and Herzegovina) 1121
41 (39) Robin Haase(Netherlands) 1120
42 (40) Fernando Verdasco(Spain) 1115
43 (42) Yuichi Sugita(Japan) 1045
44 (43) Gilles Simon(France) 1005
45 (44) Steve Johnson(U.S.) 1000
46 (45) Kyle Edmund(Britain) 992
47 (54) Jan-Lennard Struff(Germany) 968
48 (47) Viktor Troicki(Serbia) 965
49 (48) Ivo Karlovic(Croatia) 955
50 (49) Aljaz Bedene(Britain) 943
51 (50) Ryan Harrison(U.S.) 936
52 (51) Denis Shapovalov(Canada) 926
53 (52) Alexandr Dolgopolov(Ukraine) 921
54 (53) Leonardo Mayer(Argentina) 899
55 (56) Borna Coric(Croatia) 876
56 (57) Joao Sousa(Portugal) 870
57 (46) Chung Hyeon(South Korea) 860
58 (58) Jared Donaldson(U.S.) 858
59 (64) Nikoloz Basilashvili(Georgia) 852
60 (59) Jiri Vesely(Czech Republic) 850
61 (60) Donald Young(U.S.) 830
62 (62) Daniil Medvedev(Russia) 819
63 (61) Lu Yen-Hsun(Taiwan) 799
64 (63) Florian Mayer(Germany) 798
65 (65) Horacio Zeballos(Argentina) 788
66 (95) Peter Gojowczyk(Germany) 774
67 (66) Federico Delbonis(Argentina) 760
68 (68) Janko Tipsarevic(Serbia) 736
69 (67) Pierre-Hugues Herbert(France) 722
70 (69) Jordan Thompson(Australia) 717
71 (70) Thomas Fabbiano(Italy) 715
72 (71) Guido Pella(Argentina) 712
73 (72) Frances Tiafoe(U.S.) 689
74 (73) Rogerio Dutra Silva(Brazil) 688
75 (76) Thomaz Bellucci(Brazil) 682
76 (77) Steve Darcis(Belgium) 681
77 (75) Dudi Sela(Israel) 673
78 (82) Denis Istomin(Uzbekistan) 671
79 (90) Cedrik-Marcel Stebe(Germany) 655
80 (74) Malek Jaziri(Tunisia) 650
81 (78) Mikhail Kukushkin(Kazakhstan) 643
82 (79) Victor Estrella(Dominican Republic) 641
83 (86) Marius Copil(Romania) 639
84 (80) Dusan Lajovic(Serbia) 627
85 (81) Vasek Pospisil(Canada) 627
86 (83) Jeremy Chardy(France) 620
87 (85) Andreas Seppi(Italy) 611
88 (88) Evgeny Donskoy(Russia) 595
89 (84) Norbert Gombos(Slovakia) 595
90 (89) Ernesto Escobedo(U.S.) 589
91 (87) Andrey Kuznetsov(Russia) 586
92 (92) Ruben Bemelmans(Belgium) 565
93 (91) Nicolas Kicker(Argentina) 558
94 (93) Taylor Fritz(U.S.) 554
95 (96) Alexander Bublik(Kazakhstan) 552
96 (97) Laslo Djere(Serbia) 542
97 (98) Carlos Berlocq(Argentina) 533
98 (99) Sergiy Stakhovsky(Ukraine) 531
99 (101) Blaz Kavcic(Slovenia) 528
100 (103) Marco Cecchinato(Italy) 524

Not much movement at the top. Nadal now on 147 weeks total weeks at #1, closing in on a certain JP McEnroe (170)

 

[herios]

New career high Sep. 25:

40. Damir Dzumhur. 25y
66. Peter Gojowczyk 28y
83. Marius Copil. 26y
95. Alexander Bublik. 20y

 

[herios]

New career high Oct. 2, 2017:

15. Sam Querrey. 29v
36. Damir Dzumhur 25y
40. Yuichi Sugita. 29y
77. Marius Copil. 26y
80. Norbert Gombos. 27y
97. Tennys Sundgren. 26y

 

[herios]

New career high on October 9, 2017:

26. Diego Schwartzman. 25y
35. Andrey Rublev. 19y
36. Yuichi Sugita 29y
50. Denis Shapovalov. 18y
75. Marius Copil. 26y
79. Filip Krajinovic 25y
89. Laslo Djere 22y

 

[Murat Baslamisli]

New career high on October 9, 2017:

26. Diego Schwartzman. 25y
35. Andrey Rublev. 9y
36. Yuichi Sugita 29y
50. Denis Shapovalov. 18y
75. Marius Copil. 26y
79. Filip Krajinovic 25y
89. Laslo Djere 22y

Huge achievement for Rublev...I could barely serve when I was 9 !

 

[herios]

Huge achievement for Rublev...I could barely serve when I was 9 !

LOL.. fixed the boo-boo

 

[Busted]

Finally! A pundit says what we've all been saying....

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/andy-murra...rer-nadal-djokovic-says-mats-wilander-1639520

That's a, "No shite, Sherlock," isn't it? And the only "gap" between Murray and the rest of the Top 10 is that Murray can at least win the occasional Masters 1000 event and make Slam finals (even if he has lost 8 or 11 to Djokovic & Federer). Think about that - Murray's never played Nadal in a Slam final. Ever. Let's face it - Stan Wawrinka also has 3 Grand Slams - the same as Murray. And unlike Murray he's won 3 of the 4...but is a total headcase and can't keep his caca together on a weekly basis. He's 3-for-4 in Grand Slam finals...but has only ever been in 4 Masters finals and only won 1? WTF?

Anyway - back to Murray. I said it a few years ago and people jumped down my throat: Murray/Djokovic are the current Roddick/Federer. Murray is in the wrong era at the wrong time. Unlike Roddick at least was able to beat Djokovic in 2 Slam finals. Iv'e always said that he gets lumped in with the other 3 simply because he's been in 11 Slam finals, got lucky 3 times and was in the Top 4 with the other 3. The Big Four sounds a lot more impressive and less one-sided than The Big Three..

 

[Ricardo]

yes there is only ever the Big 3, i don't know on what planet one would put Murray on the same level as Fedalvic......it's insulting! lets simplify it......19-16-12 and wait for it......three!!!!!!!! just get out there, Murray is not one of them and he'd probably still be chasing his first one if Mr Lendl didn't man him up.

 

[El Dude]

Of course Murray isn't in the same league. Does anyone really think that except his diehard fans and mom?

But it isn't so simple as to say he's just one of the rest. He has inhabited a rather unique seat for the last ten years: best of the rest AND worst of the best. We can call it the "Guillermo Vilas Throne." The gap between Murray and the pack is just as large as the gap between the Trinity and Murray (just as Vilas inhabited a spot midway between Connors/Borg/McEnroe and the rest). Stan has changed that somewhat, but only for a few years.

Or consider this: over the last ten years, including current live race rankings for 2017 (with pending players in italics), here are how many times different players have finished in the top 5:

9 Djokovic
8 Nadal, Federer, Murray
3 Ferrer, Wawrinka
2 Del Potro, Nishikori
1 Davydenko*, Soderling, Raonic, Cilic, Thiem, Zverev

*To be fair to Davydenko, he finished in the top 5 for four years, from 2005-08.

Again, in terms of career accomplishments, Murray is far below the Trinity. But he's also far above anyone else during the last ten years - including Stan. And to be honest, there's an argument that he deserves to rank ahead of the author of that article, Mats Wilander. I'd still rank him lower, but another Slam or two and I think he surpasses Mats.

 

[Front242]

Huh? Are you losing it El Dude? No offense but Wilander won 7 slams so it's a no brainer even if Murray wins 2 more then Wilander would STILL be miles better with 7. As it stands Wilander won 4 more slams than Murray has to date.

 

[Ricardo]

And to be honest, there's an argument that he deserves to rank ahead of the author of that article, Mats Wilander.

Such argument would be one from an idiot, and i don't see anyone else making that argument only you mentioned this. Get this right, Murray is an also-ran for Fedalvic, while Mats was a top player in his own right with more than twice the slams that Murray has, and was a king of clay in his day. Its just ridiculous after so many posts and supposedly 'research' you still have no idea about tennis.

 

[El Dude]

I knew that would get certain folks upset. Look, as I said, I still see Wilander as the greater player, but it is much closer than the numbers "7" and "3" indicate. In fact, that difference in Slam titles is all Wilander has on Murray. In almost every other way, Andy's record is superior. Consider:

*Slam finals: 7-4 Wilander, 3-8 Murray. Wilander obviously has a big edge, but it is worth noting that they both reached 11 Slam titles. Consider the players Murray lost to in those 8 finals: Federer x3, Djokovic x5. In other words, he lost all of his finals to two of the four or five best players of the Open Era.
*Total titles: 45 Murray, 33 Wilander. Big edge for Andy.
*Big titles: 17 Murray, 8 Wilander. Big edge for Andy.
*Rankings: Both have one year-end #1. Wilander four years in top 5; seven in top 10. Murray eight years in top 5, nine in top 10. Solid edge for Andy here.

No if we want to go into non-statistical things, it becomes much more subjective. Most long-time fans would agree that Wilander was more brilliant at his best, but Andy at least partially--if not completely--balances this out with longevity and consistency. Mats was done as an elite player at age 24, while Andy just become the oldest year-end #1 in Open Era history at age 29 (although Rafa will beat that record in a month or so).

So yeah, not quite as clearcut as "7 vs 3" would indicate.

 

[britbox]

Oct 16 Rankings

1 (1) Rafa Nadal(Spain) 10465
2 (2) Roger Federer(Switzerland) 8505
3 (3) Andy Murray(Britain) 5290
4 (5) Marin Cilic(Croatia) 4505
5 (4) Alexander Zverev(Germany) 4400
6 (7) Dominic Thiem(Austria) 3935
7 (6) Novak Djokovic(Serbia) 3765
8 (9) Grigor Dimitrov(Bulgaria) 3590
9 (8) Stan Wawrinka(Switzerland) 3450
10 (10) David Goffin(Belgium) 2885
11 (11) Pablo Carreno(Spain) 2855
12 (12) Milos Raonic(Canada) 2600
13 (16) John Isner(U.S.) 2550
14 (17) Sam Querrey(U.S.) 2525
15 (14) Kei Nishikori(Japan) 2475
16 (15) Kevin Anderson(South Africa) 2470
17 (18) Jo-Wilfried Tsonga(France) 2285
18 (19) Tomas Berdych(Czech Republic) 2230
19 (23) Juan Martin del Potro(Argentina) 2225
20 (21) Nick Kyrgios(Australia) 2010
21 (20) Jack Sock(U.S.) 2005
22 (13) Roberto Bautista(Spain) 1935
23 (25) Albert Ramos(Spain) 1925
24 (22) Gilles Muller(Luxembourg) 1830
25 (24) Lucas Pouille(France) 1780
26 (26) Diego Schwartzman(Argentina) 1720
27 (28) Fabio Fognini(Italy) 1695
28 (31) Richard Gasquet(France) 1580
29 (29) Adrian Mannarino(France) 1535
30 (27) Mischa Zverev(Germany) 1457
31 (30) David Ferrer(Spain) 1425
32 (33) Philipp Kohlschreiber(Germany) 1340
33 (32) Pablo Cuevas(Uruguay) 1325
34 (34) Feliciano Lopez(Spain) 1295
35 (35) Andrey Rublev(Russia) 1286
36 (41) Alexandr Dolgopolov(Ukraine) 1231
37 (36) Yuichi Sugita(Japan) 1184
38 (37) Damir Dzumhur(Bosnia and Herzegovina) 1181
39 (38) Benoit Paire(France) 1155
40 (39) Paolo Lorenzi(Italy) 1155
41 (40) Karen Khachanov(Russia) 1110
42 (45) Steve Johnson(U.S.) 1090
43 (43) Fernando Verdasco(Spain) 1090
44 (44) Robin Haase(Netherlands) 1075
45 (46) Ryan Harrison(U.S.) 1019
46 (42) Gael Monfils(France) 1015
47 (48) Aljaz Bedene(Britain) 993
48 (54) Viktor Troicki(Serbia) 985
49 (58) Jan-Lennard Struff(Germany) 933
50 (50) Denis Shapovalov(Canada) 926
51 (52) Ivo Karlovic(Croatia) 910
52 (56) Jared Donaldson(U.S.) 908
53 (49) Leonardo Mayer(Argentina) 905
54 (60) Chung Hyeon(South Korea) 897
55 (59) Nikoloz Basilashvili(Georgia) 887
56 (55) Borna Coric(Croatia) 886
57 (51) Denis Istomin(Uzbekistan) 885
58 (53) Kyle Edmund(Britain) 877
59 (57) Donald Young(U.S.) 865
60 (61) Lu Yen-Hsun(Taiwan) 853
61 (63) Joao Sousa(Portugal) 825
62 (67) Horacio Zeballos(Argentina) 821
63 (62) Jiri Vesely(Czech Republic) 815
64 (65) Guido Pella(Argentina) 792
65 (68) Steve Darcis(Belgium) 791
66 (66) Florian Mayer(Germany) 788
67 (64) Daniil Medvedev(Russia) 784
68 (69) Peter Gojowczyk(Germany) 767
69 (70) Federico Delbonis(Argentina) 765
70 (73) Dusan Lajovic(Serbia) 726
71 (47) Gilles Simon(France) 710
72 (71) Dudi Sela(Israel) 710
73 (74) Evgeny Donskoy(Russia) 707
74 (75) Marius Copil(Romania) 703
75 (76) Thomas Fabbiano(Italy) 699
76 (72) Jordan Thompson(Australia) 662
77 (79) Filip Krajinovic(Serbia) 657
78 (80) Cedrik-Marcel Stebe(Germany) 655
79 (92) Frances Tiafoe(U.S.) 650
80 (78) Victor Estrella(Dominican Republic) 650
81 (77) Rogerio Dutra Silva(Brazil) 648
82 (105) Guillermo Garcia-Lopez(Spain) 645
83 (81) Norbert Gombos(Slovakia) 643
84 (83) Jeremy Chardy(France) 640
85 (86) Pierre-Hugues Herbert(France) 636
86 (82) Mikhail Kukushkin(Kazakhstan) 633
87 (99) Nicolas Kicker(Argentina) 628
88 (85) Andreas Seppi(Italy) 626
89 (94) Malek Jaziri(Tunisia) 596
90 (89) Laslo Djere(Serbia) 583
91 (95) Marcos Baghdatis(Cyprus) 580
92 (90) Thomaz Bellucci(Brazil) 576
93 (96) Julien Benneteau(France) 575
94 (98) Tennys Sandgren(U.S.) 575
95 (97) Andrey Kuznetsov(Russia) 566
96 (93) Henri Laaksonen(Switzerland) 566
97 (88) Janko Tipsarevic(Serbia) 556
98 (101) Ruben Bemelmans(Belgium) 544
99 (87) Taylor Fritz(U.S.) 541
100 (108) Maximilian Marterer(Germany) 536