The Greatest Female Tennis Player of All Time

Who is the Goatess?

  • Steffi Graf

  • Martina Navratilova

  • Chris Evert

  • Margaret Court

  • Serena Williams

  • Somebody else?


Results are only viewable after voting.

britbox

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RE: The Greatest Female Tennis Player of All Time

Graf would have won more majors than Navratilova regardless of what happened to Seles (who wasn't actually killed and came back to contest major finals)
 

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RE: The Greatest Female Tennis Player of All Time

britbox said:
Graf would have won more majors than Navratilova regardless of what happened to Seles (who wasn't actually killed and came back to contest major finals)

That's very cavalier of you concerning a child being stabbed in the back in public for the world to see! I was no fan of Seles and the way she played, but even I couldn't overlook that; esp. since the guy got off scott-free for the most part! Because she never went back to testify, I think he only stayed in a clinic or mental facility of some sort for a couple years and he's running around now! Germany's justice system at work! :nono
 

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RE: The Greatest Female Tennis Player of All Time

Fiero425 said:
britbox said:
Graf would have won more majors than Navratilova regardless of what happened to Seles (who wasn't actually killed and came back to contest major finals)

That's very cavalier of you concerning a child being stabbed in the back in public for the world to see! I was no fan of Seles and the way she played, but even I couldn't overlook that; esp. since the guy got off scott-free for the most part! Because she never went back to testify, I think he only stayed in a clinic or mental facility of some sort for a couple years and he's running around now! Germany's justice system at work! :nono

The way the German justice system let down Seles has nothing to do with Steffi Graf.
 

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RE: The Greatest Female Tennis Player of All Time

El Dude said:
I've discussed this with regards to the men's GOAT, but I think we have to consider two things:

One, the game over time tends to evolve. There's no real way to test this, but we can assume that tennis today (or baseball or football, etc) is better than it was 30 years ago, which was better than it was 30 years before that, and so on. By "better" I mean played at a higher performance and skill level.

Two, we can and should assume that if Margaret Court (for example) played today, she'd play a more modern style - and it is likely that her natural skill and disciplined training would lead her to become a great player now. As good as she was in the 60s? We can't know that. But the point is, Bjorn Borg wouldn't have used a wooden racket today. Babe Ruth would likely have employed modern training techniques (and perhaps stayed away from the bottle) if he played today.

Which leads me to my conclusion that the only way to really give the term "GOAT" justice is to look at player's relative to their eras and then compare how great they were relative to their eras. In other words, when we ask: "Who was greater, Pete Sampras or Roger Federer?" We have one match to go on, but its not enough. What we can do, however, is look at how dominant Sampras was during his career, especially during his peak and against his peers, versus the same for Federer.

Turning to the WTA, the only reasonable approach to this, in my opinion, is to look at their contextual greatness. How great has Serena been over her career relative to the field? How great was Graf over her career? Etc. It is useless to ask, "who would win a match, prime Serena or prime Steffi?" We just cannot know.

Which leads me to my own choice of GOATess. As with the men, its hard to compare the further back you go because the game changed so much. But I think we can safely say that Margaret Court was the GOATess up until the 1970s, and then eventually Evert and Navratilova surpassed her. Actually, in women's tennis there's clear "line of queens" over the last 50 years or so, with pairs of women sometimes flip-flopping the crown back and forth:

~1960-73: Margaret Smith/Court and Billie Jean King
1960-66: Smith (Court)
1967-68: King
1969-70: Court
1971-72: King
1973: Court

1974-87: Chris Evert & Martina Navratilova
1974-80: Evert
1981-82: Evert/Navratilova
1983-87: Navratilova

1988-96: Steffi Graf & Monica Seles
1988-90: Graf
1991-92: Seles
1993-96: Graf

1997-2001: Various
Here you have a mixture of Martina Hingis, Lindsay Davenport, Jennifer Capriati, and Venus Williams holding the title for short periods of time. Hingis and Davenport finished #1, but neither were dominant - except for Hingis for about a year and a half

2002 - present: Reign of Serena...sort of
2002: Serena
2003: Serena/Henin
2004-05: Mix (Davenport was #1, but not clearly dominant)
2006-07: Henin
2008: Mix
2009-10: Serena
2011-12: Mix
2013: Serena

I wrote up all of the above to make a point. Serena's reign of greatness has been both the longest of any great player - having won Grand Slams over a remarkable 15 year span (and counting) - and the most erratic - in 5 of those 15 years she didn't win a Slam at all, mainly due to injury and personal problems.

If Serena had been more consistent then I think this discussion would be a moot point. She'd probably have 20-25 Slams by now and have surpassed the others as the clear GOATess. But this isn't a game of what if, and consistency is a major component of greatness.

I think Serena, at her very best, is the greatest woman tennis player in the history of the game. That said, not only could she not maintain her best for long periods of time, she had a hard time for an entire year, even being somewhat erratic in her best years. In other words, despite her peak greatness her best years weren't as good as four or five of Steffi's best, and she certainly never had a span of years like Martina's 1982-87, and was not nearly as consistent as Chris Evert.

All things tolled, right now my list would be:

1. Graf
2. Navratilova
3. Evert
4. Serena
5. Court


Serena has a chance of passing Evert and Navratilova, but it would require at least a few more Slams. While she's only one behind them in Slam count, we have to take everything into account, including competition. While we could argue that the level of tennis today is higher, Serena never really had another truly great player playing at her peak during the same period of time. Henin was close and Clijsters had her moments, but Graf first had Navratilova then Seles, and Martina and Evert had each other, and Evert had King then Navratilova.
She still could become the GOATess, but she'd really have to pass Steffi's record, in my opinion, and I have a hard time seeing her winning 5 or 6 more Slams.


" I think Serena, at her very best, is the greatest woman tennis player in the history of the game "


When you made this statement in your post, You said it all.

Her greatest consistency is in another statement you made:

" Serena's reign of greatness has been both the longest of any great player - having won Grand Slams over a remarkable 15 year span (and counting) "

and:

" She'd probably have 20-25 Slams by now and have surpassed the others as the clear GOATess "


I don't think there is any doubt in anyone who knows Tennis that this would have happened

were it not for those injuries and personal problems you mentioned. And this in no way

takes away from her ability to do it. And Graf also had times when she had no truly great

player in her way. That player was taken out of the equation.
 

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RE: The Greatest Female Tennis Player of All Time

RJD11 said:
El Dude said:
I've discussed this with regards to the men's GOAT, but I think we have to consider two things:

....

All things tolled, right now my list would be:

1. Graf
2. Navratilova
3. Evert
4. Serena
5. Court


Serena has a chance of passing Evert and Navratilova, but it would require at least a few more Slams. While she's only one behind them in Slam count, we have to take everything into account, including competition. While we could argue that the level of tennis today is higher, Serena never really had another truly great player playing at her peak during the same period of time. Henin was close and Clijsters had her moments, but Graf first had Navratilova then Seles, and Martina and Evert had each other, and Evert had King then Navratilova.
She still could become the GOATess, but she'd really have to pass Steffi's record, in my opinion, and I have a hard time seeing her winning 5 or 6 more Slams.


" I think Serena, at her very best, is the greatest woman tennis player in the history of the game "


When you made this statement in your post, You said it all.

Her greatest consistancy is in another statement you made:

" Serena's reign of greatness has been both the longest of any great player - having won Grand Slams over a remarkable 15 year span (and counting) "

and:

" She'd probably have 20-25 Slams by now and have surpassed the others as the clear GOATess "


I don't think there is any doubt in anyone who knows Tennis that this would have happened

were it not for those injuries and personal problems you mentioned. And this in no way

takes away from her abilities. And Graf also had times when she had no truly great player

in her way. That player was taken out of the equation.

You're kidding right? lol! :lolz: :laydownlaughing Martina won her last major approaching 50 at the USO in mixed doubles (59th)! No one will come close to her longevity! :snigger :cool: :clap Serena can never overtake her when all is said and done and I wish people would stop trying! You give her excuse of injury, but people overlook and discount Seles being stabbed in the back! I have no words for the hypocrisy and naivette! - I jumped on the Sampras bandwagon for a while even though Laver had 2 Grand Slams to his name; 1 in pre-open tennis era! Federer made it all moot when he overtook Pete so completely taking a FO; playing several finals while Sampras never got there! :nono
 

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RE: The Greatest Female Tennis Player of All Time

El Dude said:
Serena has a chance of passing Evert and Navratilova, but it would require at least a few more Slams. While she's only one behind them in Slam count, we have to take everything into account, including competition. While we could argue that the level of tennis today is higher, Serena never really had another truly great player playing at her peak during the same period of time. Henin was close and Clijsters had her moments, but Graf first had Navratilova then Seles, and Martina and Evert had each other, and Evert had King then Navratilova.
She still could become the GOATess, but she'd really have to pass Steffi's record, in my opinion, and I have a hard time seeing her winning 5 or 6 more Slams.

I think she could easily win that many, if not more, and for the reason you already so accurately pointed out: weak competition. Unless Serena is injured (such as last year's AO), or runs up against someone on an incredible hot streak (last year's Wimbledon), chances are she's going to be the one holding the trophy (last year's RG and the USO).

The only person I regularly think of as having a chance against her is Azarenka, but even that's rare. The other top players are essentially useless when confronting her. With virtually no one capable of stopping her, she's going to keep winning at least two Majors a year, for a few more years, assuming she stays healthy and doesn't walk around barefoot in a German disco again.
 

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RE: The Greatest Female Tennis Player of All Time

tented said:
El Dude said:
Serena has a chance of passing Evert and Navratilova, but it would require at least a few more Slams. While she's only one behind them in Slam count, we have to take everything into account, including competition. While we could argue that the level of tennis today is higher, Serena never really had another truly great player playing at her peak during the same period of time. Henin was close and Clijsters had her moments, but Graf first had Navratilova then Seles, and Martina and Evert had each other, and Evert had King then Navratilova.
She still could become the GOATess, but she'd really have to pass Steffi's record, in my opinion, and I have a hard time seeing her winning 5 or 6 more Slams.

I think she could easily win that many, if not more, and for the reason you already so accurately pointed out: weak competition. Unless Serena is injured (such as last year's AO), or runs up against someone on an incredible hot streak (last year's Wimbledon), chances are she's going to be the one holding the trophy (last year's RG and the USO).

The only person I regularly think of as having a chance against her is Azarenka, but even that's rare. The other top players are essentially useless when confronting her. With virtually no one capable of stopping her, she's going to keep winning at least two Majors a year, for a few more years, assuming she stays healthy and doesn't walk around barefoot in a German disco again.

That's a lot of "if's" and assumptions! A few years of championship play? :huh: :nono :laydownlaughing
 

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RE: The Greatest Female Tennis Player of All Time

Fiero425 said:
tented said:
El Dude said:
Serena has a chance of passing Evert and Navratilova, but it would require at least a few more Slams. While she's only one behind them in Slam count, we have to take everything into account, including competition. While we could argue that the level of tennis today is higher, Serena never really had another truly great player playing at her peak during the same period of time. Henin was close and Clijsters had her moments, but Graf first had Navratilova then Seles, and Martina and Evert had each other, and Evert had King then Navratilova.
She still could become the GOATess, but she'd really have to pass Steffi's record, in my opinion, and I have a hard time seeing her winning 5 or 6 more Slams.

I think she could easily win that many, if not more, and for the reason you already so accurately pointed out: weak competition. Unless Serena is injured (such as last year's AO), or runs up against someone on an incredible hot streak (last year's Wimbledon), chances are she's going to be the one holding the trophy (last year's RG and the USO).

The only person I regularly think of as having a chance against her is Azarenka, but even that's rare. The other top players are essentially useless when confronting her. With virtually no one capable of stopping her, she's going to keep winning at least two Majors a year, for a few more years, assuming she stays healthy and doesn't walk around barefoot in a German disco again.

That's a lot of "if's" and assumptions! A few years of championship play? :huh: :nono :laydownlaughing

Actually, I only used the word "if" once, and not in a qualifying context!!! The rest is standard conjecture!!! Everything about a player's future depends on his/her being healthy!!! The same with Serena!!! If she's healthy, she can keep playing, and keep winning!!! She has almost no competition!!!
 

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RE: The Greatest Female Tennis Player of All Time

There has been much talk of Serena playing during a " weak " era

This is a post from Laj a respected poster from the old ESPN

board who has also posted here. This was posted some time ago

so some of Serena's numbers are better now. Azarenka, Stosur

Bartoli, Fran S, and Woz are slam winners and former

No 1s not counted here.



Eighteen Women, including herself, has achieved the #1 ranking statuses on the WTA tour since the rankings system was established in 1975. Of those eighteen women three (Evert, Austin, and Navratilova) were never contemporaries of Serena Williams. Of the fifteen other women, 14 of those women's career path are contemporary with that of Serena William's career path, as depicted in the aforementioned statistics. However, but not for injury retired match at the 1999 German Open against Arantxa Sanchez-Vicario, none but one of those women has a winning H2H against Serena Williams.
Serena Williams career involves her playing more #1 quality players (players who achieved the #1 ranking status) than what Court, Evert, Navratilova, and Graf did throughout their respective career. Therefore, Serena Williams has beaten and held her own against more #1 quality players than any other great players in the history of the sport. In fact, Serena's career record against #1 ranked quality players is as follows:

Graf.....................................................1 - 1
ASV.......................................................2 - 3
Seles.....................................................4 - 1
Hingis...................................................7 - 6
Davenport..........................................10 - 4
Capriati................................................10 - 7
Venus...................................................13 - 10
Clijsters................................................ 7 - 2
Henin....................................................8 - 6
Mauresmo...........................................10 - 2
Sharapova............................................5 - 2
Ivanovic.................................................2 - 0
Jankovic..................................................4 - 3
Safina.......................................................6 - 1

Total....................................................89 - 48 = 65% (64.96).

Thus, Serena has being 65% successful against contemporary #1 quality players throughout her tennis career, while they all combined for a 35% success against her. Most of the wins/losses enlisted above came when Serena was ranked lower than the particular player. For example, the H2H record against Hingis all came to been when Hingis was ranked as the #1 player in the world, save for their very last two matches at 2002 Scottsdale and Miami tournament when Hingis was ranked #3 and Serena #10 and #8 respectively.

Furthermore, Serena William's career record involves competition from more players who are eventual Grand Slam winners than what Court, Evert, Navratilova, and Graf ever did throughout their respective career. There were nineteen (19) different Grand Slam Winners (including herself) in the women's game during the period Serena Williams has been on the WTA tour (1998 to now). On the other hand there were only fourteen (14) different Grand Slam winners in the 22 years period 1975 to 1997. Serena H2H records against the Grand Slam Winners who are her contemporaries are as follows:

Graf.....................................................1 - 1
ASV.......................................................2 - 3
Seles.....................................................4 - 1
Hingis...................................................7 - 6
Davenport..........................................10 - 4
Capriati................................................10 - 7
Venus...................................................13 - 10
Clijsters................................................ 7 - 2
Henin....................................................8 - 6
Mauresmo...........................................10 - 2
Sharapova............................................5 - 2
Ivanovic.................................................2 - 0
Majoli.......................................................1 - 0
Martinez..................................................5 - 0
Pierce.......................................................5 - 1
Kuznetzova..............................................6 - 2
Novotna...................................................1 - 0
Myskina....................................................4 - 0

Total.................................................... 101 - 47 = 68.2%

Thus, Serena has being 68.2% successful against her contemporary players who are Grand Slam title winners, while they all combined for a 31.8% success against her.

Serena Williams H2H record is probably the best H2H record in the history of women's professional tennis.

laj.
 

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RE: The Greatest Female Tennis Player of All Time

With due respect RJD, those stats are skewed by a healthy number of players making No.1 during Serena's era who really weren't #1 calibre - Ana, Safina, Jelena, Caro etc...
 

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RE: The Greatest Female Tennis Player of All Time

Chris Evert on Serena getting to 18:


"If she gets to 18, I wouldn't feel like she's in good company, but

Martina and I are in good company."



Evert & Navratilova On Serena


Serena Williams is about to begin her quest for an 18th Grand Slam title, which would tie her with Chris Evert and Martina Navratilova. We asked the legends how they'd feel about her tying their record.

Published January 08, 2014 12:15


MELBOURNE, Australia - Serena Williams is about to begin her quest for another Grand Slam title. She already has 17 - five Australian Opens, two French Opens, five Wimbledons and five US Opens - and if she wins No.18, it would tie her for second place in the Open Era with Chris Evert and Martina Navratilova. We caught up with the legends to see what they think about Williams' possible 18th.

"I would be very excited," Evert said. "It's going to happen sooner or later. In the next few years if she stays healthy, she's going to win more than 18. She can get to 22 if she stays healthy and motivated.

"If she gets to 18, I wouldn't feel like she's in good company, but Martina and I are in good company."

Navratilova echoed Evert's sentiment. "It's just a matter of time before she passes us. Four or five years ago I didn't think she would get there, but the last couple of years she's really caught up. And I think she can go into the 20s the way she's playing and feeling - the sky's really the limit for her.

"Also, more power to her that she can keep doing it into her 30s. That's what's most impressive to me."

For both Evert and Navratilova, winning their 18th Grand Slam title wasn't just special, it was one of the most special moments of their career - Evert struck 18 at the French Open in 1986, while Navratilova did it at Wimbledon in 1990. Both WTA legends reminisced about those triumphs with wtatennis.com.

"My last two Grand Slams were very significant to me, because they were both at the French Open and both against Martina in the finals," Evert said. "They also came when I was not favored to win, and my doubters thought I'd never win one again. So they meant the most to me of any of my Grand Slams.

"Also going through the adversity and having more emotion as you get older, I had more appreciation of winning Grand Slams at the time. The first one I won, I was so young I didn't feel the significance."

Navratilova's victory at the All-England Club in 1990 set the record for most Wimbledon titles.

"At the time I didn't think it was the last one!" Navratilova said. "For me it was more about breaking the Wimbledon record - winning my ninth title there. The number 18 wasn't as big for me. I felt nine was the record that would never be broken. And with Margaret Court at 24, I knew I would never get to her.

"But for Serena, I think 18 will be bigger than how many Australian Opens she'll have."

At the risk of looking too far ahead, should Williams reach 18 in Melbourne, her next challenge would be reaching Steffi Graf's Open Era record of 22, and then Margaret Court's all-time record of 24. But for that we would have to wait until 2015 or 2016... Do you think she can do it?


http://www.wtatennis.com/news/article/3609864/title/evert-navratilova-on-serena
 

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RE: The Greatest Female Tennis Player of All Time

At 30, Hantuchova, a semifinalist at the Australian Open in 2008 and second only to Serena's sister Venus in main draw matches played (764), can appreciate that even more, which is why Serena had an extra word and pat of the arm for her after their match.

"I've been through all those years with her and that's why I admire what she's done so much, because the game has improved -- it's much more physical and you don't get any more easy rounds, where before, maybe the first two, three rounds you kind of got through really without having to do much," Hantuchova said of Williams. "Now, if you're not ready from the first round, you're going to be out of the tournament. …

"I think she's getting better because the game is getting better. In order to be on top, you have to improve all the time, and that's what's incredible -- how she has managed to do that over the years -- and I respect that very much."

In the end, Williams still fought off five of six break points, still served at near 120 mph, still won 74 percent of her first serves.

"That's why she's the player she is," Hantuchova said. "She knows how to come up with the big shots when she needs to, not necessarily when it's not very important, but big points, she digs in and she knows what to do."

Either way, it is clear where Serena's motivation lies. She knows it, and so do her opponents.

"Well played Serena Williams," Hantuchova wrote on her Facebook page shortly after the match. "She's the best we've had in women's tennis ... ever."



http://espn.go.com/espnw/news-commentary/article/10304189/espnw-record-setting-australian-open-win-daniela-hantuchova-serena-williams-just-getting-warmed-up
 

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RE: The Greatest Female Tennis Player of All Time

Reaching and surpassing both Evert and Navratilova in majors would be huge, but most knowledgeable tennis experts realize their careers will always transcend all others due to their longevity and winning more than 100+ tourneys; Nav w/ 167 Singles, 177 doubles while Evert just 10 behind in singles! If Serena can maintain until she's 40, I doubt she'll come close to many records of these legendary players! Not to forget Margaret Court who along with Navratilova also have the "box set" of majors!
 

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RE: The Greatest Female Tennis Player of All Time

Q. Who among all the women you've seen play over the

last 50+ years could have handled Serena routinely


Billie Jean King: Nobody................Every Generation

gets better




http://espn.go.com/espnw/video/10275867/billie-jean-king-serena?ex_cid=2014_bnnr_ESPNWTDFY14_OutbrainD_aqsn
 

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RE: The Greatest Female Tennis Player of All Time

RJD11 said:
Q. Who among all the women you've seen play over the

last 50+ years could have handled Serena routinely


Billie Jean King: Nobody................Every Generation

gets better




http://espn.go.com/espnw/video/10275867/billie-jean-king-serena?ex_cid=2014_bnnr_ESPNWTDFY14_OutbrainD_aqsn

Who said anything about handling Serena routinely? It appears Serena has been her best "worst" enemy with layoffs, not being in condition, and illness! Illnesses may not have been avoided, but her lack of training certainly had something to do with being out of condition, possibe injuries, and losing to players I'd never heard of! She had a responsibility being the top ranked woman and I don't think she took it seriously until the last couple years, giving us players like Safina, Wozniacki, and Jankovic as WTA's #1 ranked women without a sniff of a major! That had never happened in the past and I lay that on the doorsteps of both Venus and Serena being part time players! They were touted as the best of all time, but didn't act like it when they could have done more! Again, illness did not have everything to do with this state of affairs, I know and you know that, so please don't take offense at this rebuke! Just stating the facts as a historian of tennis since the 70's! :nono :huh: :(
 

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RE: The Greatest Female Tennis Player of All Time

Fiero425 said:
Just stating the facts as a historian of tennis since the 70's! :nono :huh: :(

Offering interpretations of the course of events is not stating facts as a historian of tennis. :nono
 

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RE: The Greatest Female Tennis Player of All Time

tented said:
Fiero425 said:
Just stating the facts as a historian of tennis since the 70's! :nono :huh: :(

Offering interpretations of the course of events is not stating facts as a historian of tennis. :nono

What did I post that you can deny? :idea: :angel: :cool:
 

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RE: The Greatest Female Tennis Player of All Time

Fiero425 said:
tented said:
Fiero425 said:
Just stating the facts as a historian of tennis since the 70's! :nono :huh: :(

Offering interpretations of the course of events is not stating facts as a historian of tennis. :nono

What did I post that you can deny? :idea: :angel: :cool:

These are interpretive remarks, not objective facts to be used as historic evidence:

"It appears Serena has been her best "worst" enemy ..."

"... her lack of training certainly had something to do with being out of condition, possibe injuries, and losing to players I'd never heard of!"

"... and I don't think she took it seriously ..."

"... I lay that on the doorsteps of both Venus and Serena ..."

"... didn't act like it when they could have done more!"
 

Fiero425

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RE: The Greatest Female Tennis Player of All Time

tented said:
Fiero425 said:
tented said:
Fiero425 said:
Just stating the facts as a historian of tennis since the 70's! :nono :huh: :(

Offering interpretations of the course of events is not stating facts as a historian of tennis. :nono

What did I post that you can deny? :idea: :angel: :cool:

These are interpretive remarks, not objective facts to be used as historic evidence:

"It appears Serena has been her best "worst" enemy ..."

"... her lack of training certainly had something to do with being out of condition, possibe injuries, and losing to players I'd never heard of!"

"... and I don't think she took it seriously ..."

"... I lay that on the doorsteps of both Venus and Serena ..."

"... didn't act like it when they could have done more!"

...and? :nono :nono :nono :nono Still waiting...======> :huh:
 

tented

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RE: The Greatest Female Tennis Player of All Time

Fiero425 said:
tented said:
Fiero425 said:
tented said:
Fiero425 said:
Just stating the facts as a historian of tennis since the 70's! :nono :huh: :(

Offering interpretations of the course of events is not stating facts as a historian of tennis. :nono

What did I post that you can deny? :idea: :angel: :cool:

These are interpretive remarks, not objective facts to be used as historic evidence:

"It appears Serena has been her best "worst" enemy ..."

"... her lack of training certainly had something to do with being out of condition, possibe injuries, and losing to players I'd never heard of!"

"... and I don't think she took it seriously ..."

"... I lay that on the doorsteps of both Venus and Serena ..."

"... didn't act like it when they could have done more!"

...and? :nono :nono :nono :nono Still waiting...======> :huh:

What are you waiting for? I've already proved my point: you're offering up your opinions as if reciting lists of objective facts. That's it. :wave