The Greatest Female Tennis Player of All Time

[RJD11]

RE: The Greatest Female Tennis Player of All Time

ESPN What If... poll

At the peak of their careers, who would win this hypothetical Australian Open matchup?


47%
Steffi Graf

53%
Serena Williams

Discuss (Total votes: 2,586)

Brad Gilbert verdict: The thing that jumps out at me is that there have never been two greater athletes to play this game -- maybe in any sport. You're talking about arguably the greatest female athletes of the 20th century against the best of the 21st century.

Even though Steffi dominated on the hard courts, her chances of beating Serena with any kind of regularity would be on clay. But even then, it would be hard to defend Serena's power. To me, that would be a popcorn match; each would win five out of 10.

On any kind of faster court, it's still a great matchup of offense and movement, but with all that power from Serena, especially on the serve, she's a favorite.


Click on thursday

http://espn.go.com/tennis/story/_/id/9525299/tennis-steffi-graf-played-serena-williams

 

[BTURNER]

RE: The Greatest Female Tennis Player of All Time

Here's my GOAT candidates in my current order ( I have a bad habit of changing my mind) Note for the purposes of this list doubles is seen as a separate sport) I view this as a ratio not some GOAT tournament.
Graf dominance over her contemporaries was greater or less great than Court was dominant over hers rather than a simplistic and silly question of whether Graf's game would dominate Lenglens.

1.Graf
2. Wills
3. Navratilova
4 Evert
5 court
6 Lenglen
7 Connolly
8 Serena

I value consistency, longevity and as much as peak play. They have to compete well on all surface, against all kinds of styles, and in all kinds of conditions. Its not whether they have demons to conquer, or limitations of tactics/strokes, its about how well they beat those limitations, defend their weaknesses and prevail against the hardships, and exploit those of opponents throughout their career

I look at the whole career from first match to last. If they walked on the court to compete and fans paid to watch, it counts, not just their dominant years. Fans were in the stands when they were on their way up, and on their way down so it is part of their legacy.

 

[Fiero425]

RE: The Greatest Female Tennis Player of All Time

Here's my GOAT candidates in my current order ( I have a bad habit of changing my mind) Note for the purposes of this list doubles is seen as a separate sport) I view this as a ratio not some GOAT tournament.
Graf dominance over her contemporaries was greater or less great than Court was dominant over hers rather than a simplistic and silly question of whether Graf's game would dominate Lenglens.

1.Graf
2. Wills
3. Navratilova
4 Evert
5 court
6 Lenglen
7 Connolly
8 Serena

I value consistency, longevity and as much as peak play. They have to compete well on all surface, against all kinds of styles, and in all kinds of conditions. Its not whether they have demons to conquer, or limitations of tactics/strokes, its about how well they beat those limitations, defend their weaknesses and prevail against the hardships, and exploit those of opponents throughout their career

I look at the whole career from first match to last. If they walked on the court to compete and fans paid to watch, it counts, not just their dominant years. Fans were in the stands when they were on their way up, and on their way down so it is part of their legacy.

Martina played 20 years of singles and 30 years of doubles winning everything in sight; just saying! No one's gonna get near 167 singles and 177 doubles titles, 9 Wimbledons, and winning both singles, doubles, and mixed doubles as consistantly as she did over her very long career!

 

[BTURNER]

RE: The Greatest Female Tennis Player of All Time

Here's my GOAT candidates in my current order ( I have a bad habit of changing my mind) Note for the purposes of this list doubles is seen as a separate sport) I view this as a ratio not some GOAT tournament.
Graf dominance over her contemporaries was greater or less great than Court was dominant over hers rather than a simplistic and silly question of whether Graf's game would dominate Lenglens.

1.Graf
2. Wills
3. Navratilova
4 Evert
5 court
6 Lenglen
7 Connolly
8 Serena

I value consistency, longevity and as much as peak play. They have to compete well on all surface, against all kinds of styles, and in all kinds of conditions. Its not whether they have demons to conquer, or limitations of tactics/strokes, its about how well they beat those limitations, defend their weaknesses and prevail against the hardships, and exploit those of opponents throughout their career

I look at the whole career from first match to last. If they walked on the court to compete and fans paid to watch, it counts, not just their dominant years. Fans were in the stands when they were on their way up, and on their way down so it is part of their legacy.

Martina played 20 years of singles and 30 years of doubles winning everything in sight; just saying! No one's gonna get near 167 singles and 177 doubles titles, 9 Wimbledons, and winning both singles, doubles, and mixed doubles as consistantly as she did over her very long career!

. We value and weigh different attributes. First obviously you do not recognise doubles in a separate category. If you include both, everything looks different and King looks better than Graf and Louise Brough and Margaret Dupont is better than Evert. This actually is a two woman race with Court as Martina's only competitor for GOAT. If you accept the premise behind it, I agree.

Martina is the 'hostest with the mostest' but that says nothing about the number of losses she incurred to get those numbers. Her career win/loss percentage is below Court's, Evert's and Graf's and that is because she was a bit of a late bloomer with inconsistent results before 1982 and after 1989 and a very long career. Remember she got into two finals of majors in '75, then sort of disappeared. Won Wimbledon in '78,79, then lost her way for two years. Martina was a serious danger almost the whole time, with wins over every number one from 1976 through 2000 but that does not mean she was a serious contender for most majors, and there were a hell of a lot of Rd 16 losses to call her highly consistent.

I agree that her peak play was better by any measure than Evert and that H to H matters. I also note that Martina beat her for the '84 RG title, but Evert did not recipricate at Wimbledon, so I put Martina above.

IMO, Recognising the roll of fate in these numbers and how majors changed surfaces to reward one or the other, still Evert was a bit to top heavy on the slow courts and Martina was too top heavy on the fast ones to beat Graf or Wills. Ten of Evert's majors were on clay, 5 on grass, three on hard courts. 12 of Martina's were on grass, 2 on clay, and 4 on hard courts. Graf was equally effective on grass and clay with tons of hardware on the medium speed hard courts. Surface speed really meant absolutely nothing to Graf.

 

[Fiero425]

RE: The Greatest Female Tennis Player of All Time

Here's my GOAT candidates in my current order ( I have a bad habit of changing my mind) Note for the purposes of this list doubles is seen as a separate sport) I view this as a ratio not some GOAT tournament.
Graf dominance over her contemporaries was greater or less great than Court was dominant over hers rather than a simplistic and silly question of whether Graf's game would dominate Lenglens.

1.Graf
2. Wills
3. Navratilova
4 Evert
5 court
6 Lenglen
7 Connolly
8 Serena

I value consistency, longevity and as much as peak play. They have to compete well on all surface, against all kinds of styles, and in all kinds of conditions. Its not whether they have demons to conquer, or limitations of tactics/strokes, its about how well they beat those limitations, defend their weaknesses and prevail against the hardships, and exploit those of opponents throughout their career

I look at the whole career from first match to last. If they walked on the court to compete and fans paid to watch, it counts, not just their dominant years. Fans were in the stands when they were on their way up, and on their way down so it is part of their legacy.

Martina played 20 years of singles and 30 years of doubles winning everything in sight; just saying! No one's gonna get near 167 singles and 177 doubles titles, 9 Wimbledons, and winning both singles, doubles, and mixed doubles as consistantly as she did over her very long career!

. We value and weigh different attributes. First obviously you do not recognise doubles in a separate category. If you include both, everything looks different and King looks better than Graf and Louise Brough and Margaret Dupont is better than Evert. This actually is a two woman race with Court as Martina's only competitor for GOAT. If you accept the premise behind it, I agree.

Martina is the 'hostest with the mostest' but that says nothing about the number of losses she incurred to get those numbers. Her career win/loss percentage is below Court's, Evert's and Graf's and that is because she was a bit of a late bloomer with inconsistent results before 1982 and after 1989 and a very long career. Remember she got into two finals of majors in '75, then sort of disappeared. Won Wimbledon in '78,79, then lost her way for two years. Martina was a serious danger almost the whole time, with wins over every number one from 1976 through 2000 but that does not mean she was a serious contender for most majors, and there were a hell of a lot of Rd 16 losses to call her highly consistent.

I agree that her peak play was better by any measure than Evert and that H to H matters. I also note that Martina beat her for the '84 RG title, but Evert did not recipricate at Wimbledon, so I put Martina above.

IMO, Recognising the roll of fate in these numbers and how majors changed surfaces to reward one or the other, still Evert was a bit to top heavy on the slow courts and Martina was too top heavy on the fast ones to beat Graf or Wills. Ten of Evert's majors were on clay, 5 on grass, three on hard courts. 12 of Martina's were on grass, 2 on clay, and 4 on hard courts. Graf was equally effective on grass and clay with tons of hardware on the medium speed hard courts. Surface speed really meant absolutely nothing to Graf.

From '84, I never tire of watching Martina dismantle Evert on her beloved clay! I think it was april where Martina was points from losing to Mandlikova at the WTA championship in SC, but somehow won that semi and then murdered Evert in the final 2 and 0! In June at the French, Evert should have been the favorite, but Navratilova toyed with her 3 and 1, breaking her serve at love all 4 times in the 2nd set and gifted her the one game after being up 40-0! Chris redeemed herself in '85 & '86 taking 2 tough 3 setters in Paris I still can't watch! It's still the best rivalry in sports as far as I'm concerned; Chris winning early, maybe 20+ matches to 7, then Martina winning 14 straight over 2 years, equaling each other out near the end with Evert taking that one match on HC at AO in '88! They played 80 times with Martina barely ahead 43 to 37! This is all from memory, but I think I got it right! Just venting I guess! lol! :clap :snigger :laydownlaughing

 

[BTURNER]

RE: The Greatest Female Tennis Player of All Time

Here's my GOAT candidates in my current order ( I have a bad habit of changing my mind) Note for the purposes of this list doubles is seen as a separate sport) I view this as a ratio not some GOAT tournament.
Graf dominance over her contemporaries was greater or less great than Court was dominant over hers rather than a simplistic and silly question of whether Graf's game would dominate Lenglens.

1.Graf
2. Wills
3. Navratilova
4 Evert
5 court
6 Lenglen
7 Connolly
8 Serena

I value consistency, longevity and as much as peak play. They have to compete well on all surface, against all kinds of styles, and in all kinds of conditions. Its not whether they have demons to conquer, or limitations of tactics/strokes, its about how well they beat those limitations, defend their weaknesses and prevail against the hardships, and exploit those of opponents throughout their career

I look at the whole career from first match to last. If they walked on the court to compete and fans paid to watch, it counts, not just their dominant years. Fans were in the stands when they were on their way up, and on their way down so it is part of their legacy.

Martina played 20 years of singles and 30 years of doubles winning everything in sight; just saying! No one's gonna get near 167 singles and 177 doubles titles, 9 Wimbledons, and winning both singles, doubles, and mixed doubles as consistantly as she did over her very long career!

. We value and weigh different attributes. First obviously you do not recognise doubles in a separate category. If you include both, everything looks different and King looks better than Graf and Louise Brough and Margaret Dupont is better than Evert. This actually is a two woman race with Court as Martina's only competitor for GOAT. If you accept the premise behind it, I agree.

Martina is the 'hostest with the mostest' but that says nothing about the number of losses she incurred to get those numbers. Her career win/loss percentage is below Court's, Evert's and Graf's and that is because she was a bit of a late bloomer with inconsistent results before 1982 and after 1989 and a very long career. Remember she got into two finals of majors in '75, then sort of disappeared. Won Wimbledon in '78,79, then lost her way for two years. Martina was a serious danger almost the whole time, with wins over every number one from 1976 through 2000 but that does not mean she was a serious contender for most majors, and there were a hell of a lot of Rd 16 losses to call her highly consistent.

I agree that her peak play was better by any measure than Evert and that H to H matters. I also note that Martina beat her for the '84 RG title, but Evert did not recipricate at Wimbledon, so I put Martina above.

IMO, Recognising the roll of fate in these numbers and how majors changed surfaces to reward one or the other, still Evert was a bit to top heavy on the slow courts and Martina was too top heavy on the fast ones to beat Graf or Wills. Ten of Evert's majors were on clay, 5 on grass, three on hard courts. 12 of Martina's were on grass, 2 on clay, and 4 on hard courts. Graf was equally effective on grass and clay with tons of hardware on the medium speed hard courts. Surface speed really meant absolutely nothing to Graf.

In '84, I never tire of watching Martina dismantle Evert on her beloved clay! I think it was april where Martina was points from losing to Mandlikova at the WTA championship in SC, but somehow won that semi and then murdered Evert in the final 2 and 0! In June at the French, Evert should have been the favorite, but Navratilova toyed with her 3 and 1, breaking her serve at love all 4 times in the 2nd set and gifted her the one game after being up 40-0! Chris redeemed herself in '85 & '86 taking 2 tough 3 setters in Paris I still can't watch! It's still the best rivalry in sports as far as I'm concerned; Chris winning early, maybe 20+ matches to 7, then Martina winning 14 straight over 2 years, then equaling each other out near the end with Evert taking that one match on HC iat Aussie in '88! They played 80 times with Martina barely ahead 43 to 37! This is all from memory, but I think I got it right! Just venting I guess! lol! :clap :snigger :laydownlaughing

Every word true. After Chris broke through the drought early in '85, an equilibrium was established that I think reflected the totality of their rivalry. Martina still won more in 85-88, and completely dominated on the faster indoor courts that Chris disliked. Not sure she won a set on carpet post '84 Martina won every grass match but they were all Wimbledon nailbiters in the third. They broke pretty even on the hard court meeting with only one victory separating Martina from Evert. As for the clay, 84 proved a bit of a fluke, saying more about Evert's defeatism towards Martina than anything else. Both before and after Evert won virtually all. After Evert broke the streak, Evert won both the har-tru meetings and 2 of the three RG meetings with only that lone '87 RG semi to remind Martina of any clay glory. So that is 4-1 from 85 forward for a total of 11-3 and the most lopsided final surface results of the rivalry.

Martina was clearly better on the faster stuff of carpet/grass, edged her out on the medium hard courts, and lost the clay battle throughout their careers with a heavy slant in the early years for Chris and a heavy slant in post 1981 for Martina.

Nothing like this rivalry in all of tennis or sport, excepting laver vs Rosewall

 

[RJD11]

RE: The Greatest Female Tennis Player of All Time

New Poll on SI


Is Serena Williams the greatest women's player of all time?
Yes 59.2% (1,657 votes)

No 40.8% (1,142 votes)


Total Votes: 2,799


http://tennis.si.com/2013/09/10/best-quotes-us-open-iii-serena-williams-rafael-nadal/?sct=tn_t2_a10

 

[jhar26]

RE: The Greatest Female Tennis Player of All Time

New Poll on SI


Is Serena Williams the greatest women's player of all time?
Yes 59.2% (1,657 votes)

No 40.8% (1,142 votes)


Total Votes: 2,799


http://tennis.si.com/2013/09/10/best-quotes-us-open-iii-serena-williams-rafael-nadal/?sct=tn_t2_a10

The majority of people will always vote for the current greatest as the all time greatest because that's the one they know best. That doesn't mean that she is or isn't the greatest, but 15 years ago they would have voted for Graf over Evert/Navratilova and before that for Evert/Navratilova over Court/BJK. Fifteen years from now they will vote for whoever will be the best player at that time over Serena.

 

[tented]

RE: The Greatest Female Tennis Player of All Time

New Poll on SI


Is Serena Williams the greatest women's player of all time?
Yes 59.2% (1,657 votes)

No 40.8% (1,142 votes)


Total Votes: 2,799

http://tennis.si.com/2013/09/10/best-quotes-us-open-iii-serena-williams-rafael-nadal/?sct=tn_t2_a10

The majority of people will always vote for the current greatest as the all time greatest because that's the one they know best. That doesn't mean that she is or isn't the greatest, but 15 years ago they would have voted for Graf over Evert/Navratilova and before that for Evert/Navratilova over Court/BJK. Fifteen years from now they will vote for whoever will be the best player at that time over Serena.

Exactly. To use what is quickly becoming an outdated metaphor, it's this kind of thinking which sells newspapers. The "greatest ever" is whatever is happening right now. It lends an element of excitement, however artificial, to the present. All anyone needs to do is listen to sports commentary during a live event to appreciate this phenomena (especially if it's John McEnroe).

As you correctly point out, this doesn't mean she is or isn't the greatest, but if she is it's a coincidence. And a temporary one at that.

 

[BTURNER]

RE: The Greatest Female Tennis Player of All Time

Even after the twin successes this year on red clay (won Italian and French) Serena still has by far the worst record on red clay of all the tier one GOAT women. Thats a problem for me. If you can't win on all the surfaces relatively equally, why would I choose you over people like Graf, Court, Wills and Connolly that did?

 

[RJD11]

RE: The Greatest Female Tennis Player of All Time

Even after the twin successes this year on red clay (won Italian and French) Serena still has by far the worst record on red clay of all the tier one GOAT women. Thats a problem for me. If you can't win on all the surfaces relatively equally, why would I choose you over people like Graf, Court, Wills and Connolly that did?

Clay was the weak part of her resume, And this year She fixed it

by having a perfect clay season. Heck She didn't want to get off

the stuff and won another one after Wimb. Won it 11 years after

the first won with an exclamation point. Its not just a numbers game

No one has played Tennis at a higher level than Serena J. Williams.

Why do you think that her being the best is whats talked about more

and more not just by fans, but more and more experts and other

pundits and players every time she wins. These people are not fickle

fans and cannot be just written off as such. They know the game

a lot better than......

 

[BTURNER]

RE: The Greatest Female Tennis Player of All Time

Even after the twin successes this year on red clay (won Italian and French) Serena still has by far the worst record on red clay of all the tier one GOAT women. Thats a problem for me. If you can't win on all the surfaces relatively equally, why would I choose you over people like Graf, Court, Wills and Connolly that did?

Clay was the weak part of her resume, And this year She fixed it

by having a perfect clay season. Heck She didn't want to get off

the stuff and won another one after Wimb. Won it 11 years after

the first won with an exclamation point. Its not just a numbers game

No one has played Tennis at a higher level than Serena J. Williams.

Why do you think that her being the best is whats talked about more

and more not just by fans, but more and more experts and other

pundits and players every time she wins. These people are not fickle

fans and cannot be just written off as such. They know the game

a lot better than......

She fixed it enough to get to the top tier, not win it. Its not the sort of problem you can fix in one year if you have only reached one RG final in your prior career and beat that alltime great claycourter Venus to take the title. Just compare this 'fixed' clay resume with Martina, Graf, Evert, Court, Connolly, Wills, or Lenglen. To say Serena is GOAT, you really have to dismiss surface as a criteria at all.

I am unwilling to reward Evert or Navratilova with GOAT, because their record is a little too top heavy on slow clay or fast grass respectively compared to Graf, Court or Wills for the whole enchilada , why on earth would I leapfrog Serena who has reached the semis at RG 3 times in 12 entries. She has trouble winning that QF and its not as though we can find solace in the other 22 tournaments she won. There is still a problem. She needs to pick up her dirtball in the next two years, play in Madrid and Berlin maybe and make sure she is sitting in the final 4 at RG. She's got time and she sure has game.

 

[RJD11]

RE: The Greatest Female Tennis Player of All Time

With Williams now, it is never anymore a comparison with today’s players, not even Azarenka, as it is with the greatest of all time. This is an impossible debate to wage if you base it on style, because the technology and the body types have changed too much. You watch the old films of Tracy Austin versus Martina Navratilova, and it is a different, pit-a-pat kind of sport. Nobody then hit the ball with today’s thunder, nobody was going for the lines.

Williams now has 17 Grand Slam championships, same as Roger Federer, sixth-best ever among the women, just one title behind Chris Evert and Martina Navratilova. There is little doubt, barring injury, she will surpass both of them, plus Helen Wills Moody at 19. That might happen as soon as next year.


“I don’t think about it,” said Williams, 31. “I feel great. I have never felt better. I feel really fit. I can play a tournament like this, singles, doubles, with tough, tough schedules. I haven’t felt like this in a number of years. I’m excited about the possibilities.”

If and when she surpasses Evert, there will be considerable irony in the accomplishment, because Evert complained often earlier on that Williams was not dedicated enough to her craft and to her sport. The great champion wanted Williams to play more tournaments and to stop fiddling around in outside businesses.


Williams instead has done it her way, dabbling in fashion and film, extending her career along the way. She is no dilettante, though. There is no way a dabbler can come up with this kind of season. Two slams in 2013, with a 67-4 record.

 

[BTURNER]

RE: The Greatest Female Tennis Player of All Time

With Williams now, it is never anymore a comparison with today’s players, not even Azarenka, as it is with the greatest of all time. This is an impossible debate to wage if you base it on style, because the technology and the body types have changed too much. You watch the old films of Tracy Austin versus Martina Navratilova, and it is a different, pit-a-pat kind of sport. Nobody then hit the ball with today’s thunder, nobody was going for the lines.

Williams now has 17 Grand Slam championships, same as Roger Federer, sixth-best ever among the women, just one title behind Chris Evert and Martina Navratilova. There is little doubt, barring injury, she will surpass both of them, plus Helen Wills Moody at 19. That might happen as soon as next year.


“I don’t think about it,” said Williams, 31. “I feel great. I have never felt better. I feel really fit. I can play a tournament like this, singles, doubles, with tough, tough schedules. I haven’t felt like this in a number of years. I’m excited about the possibilities.”

If and when she surpasses Evert, there will be considerable irony in the accomplishment, because Evert complained often earlier on that Williams was not dedicated enough to her craft and to her sport. The great champion wanted Williams to play more tournaments and to stop fiddling around in outside businesses.


Williams instead has done it her way, dabbling in fashion and film, extending her career along the way. She is no dilettante, though. There is no way a dabbler can come up with this kind of season. Two slams in 2013, with a 67-4 record.

Majors isn't the only tennis played or the only tennis that counts. Once she has that 18th major we will be looking at finals, semis, Fed cup and other tournaments. iI hope she can pick those numbers up as well.

by the way, I disagree about accuracy being improved as time goes on. In fact there isn't as much need to hit so close to the lines consistently with the modern pace and a lack of volleyers on the courts. Today's power leads to a decreased reaction time on the other side of the net. You just don't need to tickle sidelines to hit winners. Players have better control from their rackets, but they use it to catch the ball earlier off the bounce rather than threading the needle. I don't think players have lost any accuracy. but I don't think they have gained any either.

 

[RJD11]

RE: The Greatest Female Tennis Player of All Time

Wertheim Mailbag

Only accounting for accomplishments, why do you consider Serena Williams better than Margaret Court? Court is discounted from the greatest-of-all-time discussions because of a lack of competition in many of the 11 Australian Opens she won. But what decent competition has Serena really had the last six years, when she has won nine of her Slams? Justine Henin retired in '08, came back and still took Serena to three sets in her second tournament into her comeback, at the 2010 Australian Open. Venus is the only great player (excluding Henin in her comeback) she beat to win one of those nine.
-- Harvey, Sydney

• Beyond the numbers, here's the outline of my case for Serena:

-- She has won every Grand Slam tournament at least twice.

-- She won her first major in the 1990s. She is the best player in the world in 2013.

-- She is winning at a time when the majors are not just stocked with the top players but the entire season is based on these four events.

-- Head-to-head, with neutral equipment and surfaces, I firmly believe she beats any other player in history. She is serving in the high 120s. She has a physical advantage against Navratilova, the player who revolutionized the sport with her musculature and fitness. This is not to malign the previous generation. It's just progress. But Serena versus Margaret Court is LeBron James versus Dolph Schayes.

-- Bonus points for doubles.

Read More: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/tennis/news/20131002/tennis-mailbag-challenge-system/#ixzz2gaUXuACx

 

[RJD11]

RE: The Greatest Female Tennis Player of All Time

Wortheim Mailbag question:

and answer


Why is it only in tennis that you find people who still think that players of yesteryear could stay on the court with today's top players? Someone just recently asked why you pick Serena over Margaret Court. You have to be fairly close-minded to think Court could stay on the court with Serena.
-- Tony, Greenwich, Conn.

• If the players of yesterday were indeed better -- if times in swimming and running and cycling did not go down; if we thought George Best was a better player than, say, Lionel Messi; if we suspected Babe Ruth could hit Justin Verlander better than a contemporary batter -- your sport would be in trouble.

Read More: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/tennis/news/20131016/roger-federer-mailbag/#ixzz2hvYyjEXl

 

[RJD11]

RE: The Greatest Female Tennis Player of All Time

Ted Williams lives in Emmaus, PA and is a lifetime tennis follower. He spent 20 years in print journalism, winning state and national awards.




Serena Williams Has to Be the Best Ever, and Here's Why


How great is Serena Williams?

She recently was named Women's Tennis Association Player of the Year for 2013, certainly no surprise. You'd have to go back to the very best days of Martina Navratilova and Steffi Graf to see a player as dominant in the women's game. In fact, since this award was first issued in 1977, the three aforementioned ladies have owned it like no others -- Graf eight times, Navratilova seven times, and Williams five times.

But I'm not sure there has ever been a player quite like Serena Williams.

Wouldn't it be great to build a time machine and see them all at peak quality? Throw in Venus Williams, Monica Seles, Chris Evert, Billie Jean King, Margaret Court, Althea Gibson, Maureen Connolly, Suzanne Lenglen -- all at their pinnacles with the same equipment. Who wouldn't pay to watch that tournament?

The only measuring stick we really have is how they dominated in singles in their respective eras. But there is one difference. Generally, the domination didn't last all that long. It ended for one reason or another, in most cases because another player came along who was better.

I said there is one difference. It's been that way for all of them, except Serena Williams.

The only thing that has slowed Serena down has been her health. When she hasn't been sidelined by injury, she's found her way back to the top pretty quickly. She won her first grand slam singles title in 1999, the U.S. Open, a few weeks before she turned 18. She won the U.S. Open last September as well, a few weeks before she turned 32.

That's a 14-year span, folks. Graf and Navratilova each won grand slam singles titles 12 years apart. But the last one for each could be viewed as something of a last hurrah. Graf won her last slam, the French Open, at 29 and was retired entirely from the game at 30. Navratilova won her last slam, Wimbledon, at 33 and retired from singles at 37. She did win a grand slam doubles title at 49. But in terms of singles, both Graf and Navratilova were fading in the rankings at the time of their last grand slam titles.

At 32, Williams is still by far the best women's tennis player in the world. In fact, she hasn't really had a consistent challenger over her career. There have been moments -- Justine Henin, Jennifer Capriati and Kim Clijsters all beat her in majors and then struggled with injuries and eventually found themselves out of the game.


Her sister Venus has played her 21 times and managed only seven victories, none since 2009. Samantha Stosur just smoked Serena, 6-2, 6-3 in the 2011 U.S. Open final but hasn't duplicated that level of excellence against her since. Maria Sharapova smoked Serena, 6-1, 6-4 in the 2004 Wimbledon final and has won just one of 14 matches since. She's only taken one set from Serena since 2008.

Now, if age treats Serena Williams like it has past champions, she should begin declining soon. But she certainly hasn't shown any signs of it. In recent years among active players, only world No. 2 Victoria Azarenka appears to be able to challenge Serena with any regularity. They've split four matches, all finals, played this year, and three of them went three sets. But Serena won the biggest, the U.S. Open final, by blowing Azarenka away in the final set. Prior to this year, Serena held a 12-1 advantage head-to-head.

If you want to call Serena Williams the best ever, it would be hard to argue. Maybe a time will come when a rival finally proves to be superior to her on the court match after match. Right now, it's hard to imagine.


source: http://sports.yahoo.com/news/serena-...0120--ten.html

 

[El Dude]

RE: The Greatest Female Tennis Player of All Time

I've discussed this with regards to the men's GOAT, but I think we have to consider two things:

One, the game over time tends to evolve. There's no real way to test this, but we can assume that tennis today (or baseball or football, etc) is better than it was 30 years ago, which was better than it was 30 years before that, and so on. By "better" I mean played at a higher performance and skill level.

Two, we can and should assume that if Margaret Court (for example) played today, she'd play a more modern style - and it is likely that her natural skill and disciplined training would lead her to become a great player now. As good as she was in the 60s? We can't know that. But the point is, Bjorn Borg wouldn't have used a wooden racket today. Babe Ruth would likely have employed modern training techniques (and perhaps stayed away from the bottle) if he played today.

Which leads me to my conclusion that the only way to really give the term "GOAT" justice is to look at player's relative to their eras and then compare how great they were relative to their eras. In other words, when we ask: "Who was greater, Pete Sampras or Roger Federer?" We have one match to go on, but its not enough. What we can do, however, is look at how dominant Sampras was during his career, especially during his peak and against his peers, versus the same for Federer.

Turning to the WTA, the only reasonable approach to this, in my opinion, is to look at their contextual greatness. How great has Serena been over her career relative to the field? How great was Graf over her career? Etc. It is useless to ask, "who would win a match, prime Serena or prime Steffi?" We just cannot know.

Which leads me to my own choice of GOATess. As with the men, its hard to compare the further back you go because the game changed so much. But I think we can safely say that Margaret Court was the GOATess up until the 1970s, and then eventually Evert and Navratilova surpassed her. Actually, in women's tennis there's clear "line of queens" over the last 50 years or so, with pairs of women sometimes flip-flopping the crown back and forth:

~1960-73: Margaret Smith/Court and Billie Jean King
1960-66: Smith (Court)
1967-68: King
1969-70: Court
1971-72: King
1973: Court

1974-87: Chris Evert & Martina Navratilova
1974-80: Evert
1981-82: Evert/Navratilova
1983-87: Navratilova

1988-96: Steffi Graf & Monica Seles
1988-90: Graf
1991-92: Seles
1993-96: Graf

1997-2001: Various
Here you have a mixture of Martina Hingis, Lindsay Davenport, Jennifer Capriati, and Venus Williams holding the title for short periods of time. Hingis and Davenport finished #1, but neither were dominant - except for Hingis for about a year and a half

2002 - present: Reign of Serena...sort of
2002: Serena
2003: Serena/Henin
2004-05: Mix (Davenport was #1, but not clearly dominant)
2006-07: Henin
2008: Mix
2009-10: Serena
2011-12: Mix
2013: Serena

I wrote up all of the above to make a point. Serena's reign of greatness has been both the longest of any great player - having won Grand Slams over a remarkable 15 year span (and counting) - and the most erratic - in 5 of those 15 years she didn't win a Slam at all, mainly due to injury and personal problems.

If Serena had been more consistent then I think this discussion would be a moot point. She'd probably have 20-25 Slams by now and have surpassed the others as the clear GOATess. But this isn't a game of what if, and consistency is a major component of greatness.

I think Serena, at her very best, is the greatest woman tennis player in the history of the game. That said, not only could she not maintain her best for long periods of time, she had a hard time for an entire year, even being somewhat erratic in her best years. In other words, despite her peak greatness her best years weren't as good as four or five of Steffi's best, and she certainly never had a span of years like Martina's 1982-87, and was not nearly as consistent as Chris Evert.

All things tolled, right now my list would be:

1. Graf
2. Navratilova
3. Evert
4. Serena
5. Court


Serena has a chance of passing Evert and Navratilova, but it would require at least a few more Slams. While she's only one behind them in Slam count, we have to take everything into account, including competition. While we could argue that the level of tennis today is higher, Serena never really had another truly great player playing at her peak during the same period of time. Henin was close and Clijsters had her moments, but Graf first had Navratilova then Seles, and Martina and Evert had each other, and Evert had King then Navratilova.
She still could become the GOATess, but she'd really have to pass Steffi's record, in my opinion, and I have a hard time seeing her winning 5 or 6 more Slams.

 

[Mastoor]

RE: The Greatest Female Tennis Player of All Time

It is hard to chose between Monika Seles who in the era of Navratilova and Graf won 8 of 9 consecutive slams before she was eliminated by Graf's fans and Martina Navratilova who bested Evert and also had fair share later playing with Graf and Seles in the competiion.

But it happened what it happened in Hamburg 20 years ago, so Navratilova will be remembered as the best of all times.

 

[Fiero425]

RE: The Greatest Female Tennis Player of All Time

It is hard to chose between Monika Seles who in the era of Navratilova and Graf won 8 of 9 consecutive slams before she was eliminated by Graf's fans and Martina Navratilova who bested Evert and also had fair share later playing with Graf and Seles in the competiion.

But it happened what it happened in Hamburg 20 years ago, so Navratilova will be remembered as the best of all times.

That's why I can't put Graf ahead of Navratilova even though she has more "single" majors! No way would Graf have had her way with the tour if Monica was still around! It wasn't like an injury or apathy was involved; a stabbing of all things in our sport! :nono :huh: