The Fall of Rafael Nadal

[Moxie]

^^ Well don’t ask me, ask Moxie, I already said that it makes sense that Rafa was so much better especially on clay from their beginnings and that head to head was heavily in his favor before 2011 (and he probably leads on clay even after 2011). Nadal still leads 14-6, which means they met 20 times on clay and there are only 4 big clay tournaments where they could have met. So it really goes to show that even though Nole was not that good, he still was able to make it to semis and finals to meet Rafa, the Clay King, all those times. The rest of the tournaments are hard courts and Wimbledon. Nole leads 16-7 in their hard court matches (so I find it strange that they only met 5 more times than on clay when there are so many more hard court tournaments than clay. As you point out, Nole was terrible at 2009 and 2010 AO, everybody knows that, but he did win a title even before Nadal made a final there. Where was Nadal in 2008, 2011, 2013, 2015? Where was Nadal at Wimbledon the last 4 years? Couldn’t even reach semis, so Nole couldn’t even face him there. Thank god Nole won USO this year otherwise I would have to listen how Nadal is so much better at that tournament as well. My point is that even as bad as you want to paint Nole, he at least makes semis and finals at all slams (FO included) while you really can’t say that for Nadal on other surfaces. Yes he surprises for a couple of months, like AO 2009 or that famous summer of 2013, but it is short lived. I am talking about consistency throughout the whole season year after year. I never claimed that Nole is better than Nadal when it comes to clay, the results prove that. They met 7 times at FO alone, yet in all other 3 slams combined they met 6 times only! But just as Nole can sometimes beat Rafa on clay, the same goes for Rafa beating Nole on other surfaces. You are welcome to demean Nole’s achievements all you want but I don’t see Rafa playing with a walking stick. He is just 1 year older than Nole. Additionally whether being bothered with an injury or not, being tired or not, Nole has played all slams and most masters for years. It does add miles on his legs and he is not a spring chicken really. Just as I keep saying over and over again, I judge tennis players over their whole career and their achievements will be known when they retire. Who cares that Nole really didn’t have funds or opportunities to develop more quickly than maybe some of his contemporaries? Only his fans know how tough it was for him to develop, to mature in a world without any real guidance. It took him perhaps longer than Rafa, but he did find his way and has become a model in the world of tennis professionals. Here is a look at their rivalry (which I really find fascinating): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Djokovic%E2%80%93Nadal_rivalry

Hey, I was just reacting to Twisted.  And I'll let Broken's breakdown stand.  It's a fairly reasonable assessment of their relative careers to date.

 

[ClayDeath]

Just 12 days to go now before we can watch the gladiator in action in Abu Dhabi.

lack of supreme or somewhat optimal fitness remains a huge issue.

i just don't know how you get around that.

there is reason why Djokovic is taking all the big events. He is going deep in all of them and running through everybody like knife through water.

supreme fitness is the biggest reason why he is taking everything in sight.

other biggest reason is that he driven like mad to excel in every single aspect of the game. He is working very hard.

he is not farting around and wasting precious and absolutely critical time.

 

[EdbergsGhost]

Just 12 days to go now before we can watch the gladiator in action in Abu Dhabi. lack of supreme or somewhat optimal fitness remains a huge issue. i just don’t know how you get around that. there is reason why Djokovic is taking all the big events. He is going deep in all of them and running through everybody like knife through water. supreme fitness is the biggest reason why he is taking everything in sight. other biggest reason is that he driven like mad to excel in every single aspect of the game. He is working very hard. he is not farting around and wasting precious and absolutely critical time.

His goal isn't simply to pass Nadal, but to do everything he can to catch Fed - if possible.

 

[ClayDeath]

Exactly right. Complacency does not work for Djokovic. He has little time to waste.

 

also he is not farting around trying to do 1000 different things that you do after you retire from the sport.

Djokovic knows that soon he will have 60 years to fart around. Why not just focus hard on the profession  right now and go after as much glory as possible.

slams and masters events is the ultimate glory in tennis. Djokovic wants both records.

 

[Moxie]

Clay Death wrote:
Just 12 days to go now before we can watch the gladiator in action in Abu Dhabi. lack of supreme or somewhat optimal fitness remains a huge issue. i just don’t know how you get around that. there is reason why Djokovic is taking all the big events. He is going deep in all of them and running through everybody like knife through water. supreme fitness is the biggest reason why he is taking everything in sight. other biggest reason is that he driven like mad to excel in every single aspect of the game. He is working very hard. he is not farting around and wasting precious and absolutely critical time.

His goal isn’t simply to pass Nadal, but to do everything he can to catch Fed – if possible.

This is the thing that Federer fans hadn't counted on, when they got on the Nole bandwagon, just because he was making Nadal look vulnerable, and  stopping his run at the Majors.  It'll be interesting to see how that plays if he gets to the 14-15 they're hoping for, and isn't yet stoppable.

 

[EdbergsGhost]

Edbergs Ghost wrote:
<blockquote>
Clay Death wrote:
Just 12 days to go now before we can watch the gladiator in action in Abu Dhabi. lack of supreme or somewhat optimal fitness remains a huge issue. i just don’t know how you get around that. there is reason why Djokovic is taking all the big events. He is going deep in all of them and running through everybody like knife through water. supreme fitness is the biggest reason why he is taking everything in sight. other biggest reason is that he driven like mad to excel in every single aspect of the game. He is working very hard. he is not farting around and wasting precious and absolutely critical time.

His goal isn’t simply to pass Nadal, but to do everything he can to catch Fed – if possible.</blockquote>
This is the thing that Federer fans hadn’t counted on, when they got on the Nole bandwagon, just because he was making Nadal look vulnerable, and stopping his run at the Majors. It’ll be interesting to see how that plays if he gets to the 14-15 they’re hoping for, and isn’t yet stoppable.

It certainly will be.  Already, you can see them putting breaks on their enthusiasm and talking up the 29 milestone.

 

[ClayDeath]

Rafa needs one more slam to pass Sampras but there is probably no stopping Djokovic at the rate he is going and given his relentless drive to be better and more fit.

 

it is pretty much a given now that he will pass up both Rafa and Sampras with just 5 more slams to go.

Djokovic does not just beat his greatest rivals: he runs over them like a runaway steel locomotive.

 

they will have to outwork Djokovic to get near him. it is really that simple.

 

[DarthFed]

Moxie wrote:
<blockquote>
Edbergs Ghost wrote:
<blockquote>
Clay Death wrote:
Just 12 days to go now before we can watch the gladiator in action in Abu Dhabi. lack of supreme or somewhat optimal fitness remains a huge issue. i just don’t know how you get around that. there is reason why Djokovic is taking all the big events. He is going deep in all of them and running through everybody like knife through water. supreme fitness is the biggest reason why he is taking everything in sight. other biggest reason is that he driven like mad to excel in every single aspect of the game. He is working very hard. he is not farting around and wasting precious and absolutely critical time.

His goal isn’t simply to pass Nadal, but to do everything he can to catch Fed – if possible.</blockquote>
This is the thing that Federer fans hadn’t counted on, when they got on the Nole bandwagon, just because he was making Nadal look vulnerable, and stopping his run at the Majors. It’ll be interesting to see how that plays if he gets to the 14-15 they’re hoping for, and isn’t yet stoppable.</blockquote>
It certainly will be.

Already, you can see them putting breaks on their enthusiasm and talking up the 29 milestone.

I have no problem with Djokovic passing Roger.  If he does it is Fed's own fault for being absolutely atrocious in 5th sets.  If he was even just mediocre in 5th sets he'd be sitting on 20 at least.  As it stands 17 will be broken by Rafa, Djokovic, or player X within 15 years, that's just the way it is.  Roger's most impressive records and the toughest ones to break are the consistency ones (237 consecutive weeks at #1, 10 straight GS finals, 23 straight semis, etc.)

Also you seem to think Djokovic will never age.  I think you're in for a rude awakening.

 

[Moxie]

Edbergs Ghost wrote:
<blockquote>
Moxie wrote:
<blockquote>
Edbergs Ghost wrote:
<blockquote>
Clay Death wrote:
Just 12 days to go now before we can watch the gladiator in action in Abu Dhabi. lack of supreme or somewhat optimal fitness remains a huge issue. i just don’t know how you get around that. there is reason why Djokovic is taking all the big events. He is going deep in all of them and running through everybody like knife through water. supreme fitness is the biggest reason why he is taking everything in sight. other biggest reason is that he driven like mad to excel in every single aspect of the game. He is working very hard. he is not farting around and wasting precious and absolutely critical time.

His goal isn’t simply to pass Nadal, but to do everything he can to catch Fed – if possible.</blockquote>
This is the thing that Federer fans hadn’t counted on, when they got on the Nole bandwagon, just because he was making Nadal look vulnerable, and stopping his run at the Majors. It’ll be interesting to see how that plays if he gets to the 14-15 they’re hoping for, and isn’t yet stoppable.</blockquote>
It certainly will be.

Already, you can see them putting breaks on their enthusiasm and talking up the 29 milestone.</blockquote>
I have no problem with Djokovic passing Roger. If he does it is Fed’s own fault for being absolutely atrocious in 5th sets. If he was even just mediocre in 5th sets he’d be sitting on 20 at least. As it stands 17 will be broken by Rafa, Djokovic, or player X within 15 years, that’s just the way it is. Roger’s most impressive records and the toughest ones to break are the consistency ones (237 consecutive weeks at #1, 10 straight GS finals, 23 straight semis, etc.) Also you seem to think Djokovic will never age. I think you’re in for a rude awakening.

You can say that Roger might have won more Majors, but you can't say he definitely would have.  I know you like to think that matches are always on Fed's racquet, or at least back in the day, but that's not all of it.  Maybe the USO in '09.  Not Wimbledon in '08, because he didn't lose due to playing a poor 5th set.  He did play a poor 5th in the AO in '09, but it doesn't mean he'd have won it had he played a better one.  Nadal was at the peak of his powers (one of them,) and he was well in Roger's head.  And Roger played a good 5th v. Safin in AO in '05, saving some 7 or 8 MPs.  Anyway, his back was bothering him, since he took that MTO at the start of the 5th, so it probably wasn't his day, and it certainly was Safin's, though I'd agree if you're thinking that Roger would have won the final over Lleyton, had he prevailed in the SF.  And probably not Wimbledon '14, since he was pretty lucky to see a 5th set.

The weeks at #1 are pretty safe, especially consecutive ones.  However, some of those "consistency" records are a little bit like getting the Miss Congeniality award, though, I have to say.  It's still a 2nd or 3rd best, and you're the man who insists that anything less than a W is just a big ol' L.  It's nice to be fit and to play at the upper echelons, but it's the wins that weigh the heaviest.

While it's hard at the moment to picture who's going to take down Novak in the near future, it's also statistically hard to imagine that him having a year as good as 2015, unless the field just folds.  And (back to the topic,) Rafa, for one, seems to be ready for a much better 2016.

 

[DarthFed]

Twisted wrote:
<blockquote>
Edbergs Ghost wrote:
<blockquote>
Moxie wrote:
<blockquote>
Edbergs Ghost wrote:
<blockquote>
Clay Death wrote:
Just 12 days to go now before we can watch the gladiator in action in Abu Dhabi. lack of supreme or somewhat optimal fitness remains a huge issue. i just don’t know how you get around that. there is reason why Djokovic is taking all the big events. He is going deep in all of them and running through everybody like knife through water. supreme fitness is the biggest reason why he is taking everything in sight. other biggest reason is that he driven like mad to excel in every single aspect of the game. He is working very hard. he is not farting around and wasting precious and absolutely critical time.

His goal isn’t simply to pass Nadal, but to do everything he can to catch Fed – if possible.</blockquote>
This is the thing that Federer fans hadn’t counted on, when they got on the Nole bandwagon, just because he was making Nadal look vulnerable, and stopping his run at the Majors. It’ll be interesting to see how that plays if he gets to the 14-15 they’re hoping for, and isn’t yet stoppable.</blockquote>
It certainly will be.

Already, you can see them putting breaks on their enthusiasm and talking up the 29 milestone.</blockquote>
I have no problem with Djokovic passing Roger. If he does it is Fed’s own fault for being absolutely atrocious in 5th sets. If he was even just mediocre in 5th sets he’d be sitting on 20 at least. As it stands 17 will be broken by Rafa, Djokovic, or player X within 15 years, that’s just the way it is. Roger’s most impressive records and the toughest ones to break are the consistency ones (237 consecutive weeks at #1, 10 straight GS finals, 23 straight semis, etc.) Also you seem to think Djokovic will never age. I think you’re in for a rude awakening.</blockquote>
You can say that Roger might have won more Majors, but you can’t say he definitely would have. I know you like to think that matches are always on Fed’s racquet, or at least back in the day, but that’s not all of it. Maybe the USO in ’09. Not Wimbledon in ’08, because he didn’t lose due to playing a poor 5th set. He did play a poor 5th in the AO in ’09, but it doesn’t mean he’d have won it had he played a better one. Nadal was at the peak of his powers (one of them,) and he was well in Roger’s head. And Roger played a good 5th v. Safin in AO in ’05, saving some 7 or 8 MPs. Anyway, his back was bothering him, since he took that MTO at the start of the 5th, so it probably wasn’t his day, and it certainly was Safin’s, though I’d agree if you’re thinking that Roger would have won the final over Lleyton, had he prevailed in the SF. And probably not Wimbledon ’14, since he was pretty lucky to see a 5th set. The weeks at #1 are pretty safe, especially consecutive ones. However, some of those “consistency” records are a little bit like getting the Miss Congeniality award, though, I have to say. It’s still a 2nd or 3rd best, and you’re the man who insists that anything less than a W is just a big ol’ L. It’s nice to be fit and to play at the upper echelons, but it’s the wins that weigh the heaviest. While it’s hard at the moment to picture who’s going to take down Novak in the near future, it’s also statistically hard to imagine that him having a year as good as 2015, unless the field just folds. And (back to the topic,) Rafa, for one, seems to be ready for a much better 2016.

The bottom line is Roger is 3-8 in GS semis and finals that went to 5 sets.  Four of them have been slam finals including 2 at Wimbledon where he is expected to do well.  And there is no such thing as a quality loss when we are talking a 5th set.  Losses to Safin and DP are hideous on paper for starters.  He choked away both matches.  I'd say out of all of them only USO 2011 semi vs. Djokovic was one you'd expect he "should" lose and that was probably the most pathetic loss of all of them.  His play in none of those losses was impressive in the 5th.

As for the other records I mostly agree.  They are records but they are not anywhere near as big as the slams record.  That is the holy grail and Roger should've done better, a lot better but couldn't hold his nerve in the tightest moments.

The landscape in men's tennis can change quickly.  No one thought Rafa would become so weak after winning #14 at RG.  No one thought Roger would fall off in an enormous way after winning #16, etc.  Both came around age 29.  There are a couple reasons to think it will be different for Djokovic: 1. he is playing at a higher level than Roger and Rafa were at age 28 and 2. he is chasing records while Roger had just broken the slam mark.  Different level of motivation.  But at the end of the day he has a lot of mileage on those legs and after next year history says he will be on the downside of his career.  There is really no argument or precedent to suggest otherwise.  He might prove us wrong and end up being the exception.

 

[Moxie]

Let me just say again, just because you find those 5th set losses deplorable, it doesn't mean he would have otherwise have won them.  Just because he should have beaten Del Potro and Safin in those matches "on paper," doesn't do justice to the matches, as they were played, and the opponents on the day.  It's difficult to say that you overrate Roger, because he's so good, but sometimes you do.  And you underrate the opponent.  It's not like he lost those matches to chumps.  And of course he was given a decent chance to win them, if not even being favored. He has a better record than almost anyone at 3 of the 4 Majors.  However, there are reasons that the opponent was better on the day, and that Federer is human enough to have an off day.  He isn't missing those 3 or whatever Majors simply because he sucks at 5th sets.  It's more complicated than that, and the opponents he faced had something to say about it.

For the record, it's not that Rafa became "so weak" after winning RG.  He injured his wrist, missed all of the USO season, and then had to have his appendix out.  That's quite a lot of bad luck.  The rebound has taken longer than expected, I'll give you that.  But, yes, it left Djokovic without his greatest competitor.  Hopefully that changes in 2016.  Additionally, I'm going to be shocked and dismayed if the whole rest of the field just folds up its tent and gives up.  There has to be a couple of young players with enough starch in their shorts to step up at least occasionally.

 

[britbox]

I don't have an issue with Djoker passing Fed even though I don't think it will happen.

 

[Moxie]

I don’t have an issue with Djoker passing Fed even though I don’t think it will happen.

How about if Rafa were to pass him?

 

[DarthFed]

Let me just say again, just because you find those 5th set losses deplorable, it doesn’t mean he would have otherwise have won them. Just because he should have beaten Del Potro and Safin in those matches “on paper,” doesn’t do justice to the matches, as they were played, and the opponents on the day. It’s difficult to say that you overrate Roger, because he’s so good, but sometimes you do. And you underrate the opponent. It’s not like he lost those matches to chumps. And of course he was given a decent chance to win them, if not even being favored. He has a better record than almost anyone at 3 of the 4 Majors. However, there are reasons that the opponent was better on the day, and that Federer is human enough to have an off day. He isn’t missing those 3 or whatever Majors simply because he sucks at 5th sets. It’s more complicated than that, and the opponents he faced had something to say about it. For the record, it’s not that Rafa became “so weak” after winning RG. He injured his wrist, missed all of the USO season, and then had to have his appendix out. That’s quite a lot of bad luck. The rebound has taken longer than expected, I’ll give you that. But, yes, it left Djokovic without his greatest competitor. Hopefully that changes in 2016. Additionally, I’m going to be shocked and dismayed if the whole rest of the field just folds up its tent and gives up. There has to be a couple of young players with enough starch in their shorts to step up at least occasionally.

Well there are many ways to view the same situation.  3-8 in those matches I mentioned speaks to itself.  A loss is a loss, meaning it is an awful result because aside from dying on court there is no worse result than losing.  It is an individual sport so there is nowhere to hide.  You either prove yourself superior or inferior.  No one wants to be the embarrassed dude losing a match.  It isn't team sports where a player can do great and the rest of his team stinks and loses the game.  You either do well (win) or you don't (lose).

You've probably seen me mention in other forums but that five set record in the biggest matches, instead of the Rafa H2H, is probably the worst number of Roger's career.  It does speak to how incredible a player he is that he is still the greatest/most successful to date given he struggles badly in close matches against top competition.  For the most part in his prime Roger either won easily or lost a 5 set war at slams.

As for Rafa's struggles you are in denial at what's taken place.  He didn't stink last year because of a 2 month wrist injury the year before or having his appendix removed.  He was just another year older.  He isn't moving as well and the topspin isn't as deadly.  Without great movement and the deep high bouncing topspin he is not going to play at an elite level period.  There is no great serve to lean on, and he can't end points on his own terms.  Add to that a player's confidence naturally takes a hit as the bad results pile up.  I do think he will have a better 2016 but health is not his problem right now (for a change).

 

[ClayDeath]

britbox wrote:
I don’t have an issue with Djoker passing Fed even though I don’t think it will happen.

How about if Rafa were to pass him?

whatever moxie is smoking must be good.

 

we have a guy who has not won a single hard court event since 2013. at the end of 2016 that stat looks even more pathetic.

he failed to make it past the quarterfinals of all 4 slams in 2015.

he has failed to win a masters event in 2 years. it will be 3 years with zero masters events at the end of 2016.

I don't call the Madrid masters a win in 2014. nishikori retired with injury and there was nobody else there. djokovic, Federer, and andy were not there.

the decline is so steep that he cant even get the damn ball back. even on clay. against the top 10 players on clay in 2015, he was able to break serve

less than 20% of the time.

need I go on?

 

and you have him passing up Federer? only thing he is going to pass up is a public golf course to go to a better golf course.

he was on the golf course again this weekend.

he does not care to win. get that through your skull once for all.

 

you cant list a single event that he is going to win in 2016 and yet you have him passing up Federer.

tony said he has reached "tranquility". what that means is that he is done.

he is also happy getting his ass handed to him time and again by djokovic. it is so bad that I cant even bear to watch the highlights.

there is only one logical conclusion: money is too good so he is hanging around and cashing in on his fame and popularity. he is also enjoying the spotlight.

 

he is not winning anything. doesn't that say it all? I don't call rio and hamburg wins for this all time great who is just 29. also who did he beat there?

Monaco? who the hell is he. I could have beaten him on a good day. he is just a clown.

and who is fognini? his claim to fame will be that he married flavia. or that he beat rafa no less than 3 times in 2015. twice on clay.

 

 

[ClayDeath]

Rafa doesn't care to win. his fans will have to live with that. just celebrate his past glory because there is no more additional glory for rafa if he refuses to change a thing.

relentless hunger to win is gone. it vanished.

 

 

[Moxie]

Moxie wrote:
Let me just say again, just because you find those 5th set losses deplorable, it doesn’t mean he would have otherwise have won them. Just because he should have beaten Del Potro and Safin in those matches “on paper,” doesn’t do justice to the matches, as they were played, and the opponents on the day. It’s difficult to say that you overrate Roger, because he’s so good, but sometimes you do. And you underrate the opponent. It’s not like he lost those matches to chumps. And of course he was given a decent chance to win them, if not even being favored. He has a better record than almost anyone at 3 of the 4 Majors. However, there are reasons that the opponent was better on the day, and that Federer is human enough to have an off day. He isn’t missing those 3 or whatever Majors simply because he sucks at 5th sets. It’s more complicated than that, and the opponents he faced had something to say about it. For the record, it’s not that Rafa became “so weak” after winning RG. He injured his wrist, missed all of the USO season, and then had to have his appendix out. That’s quite a lot of bad luck. The rebound has taken longer than expected, I’ll give you that. But, yes, it left Djokovic without his greatest competitor. Hopefully that changes in 2016. Additionally, I’m going to be shocked and dismayed if the whole rest of the field just folds up its tent and gives up. There has to be a couple of young players with enough starch in their shorts to step up at least occasionally.

Well there are many ways to view the same situation. 3-8 in those matches I mentioned speaks to itself. A loss is a loss, meaning it is an awful result because aside from dying on court there is no worse result than losing. It is an individual sport so there is nowhere to hide. You either prove yourself superior or inferior. No one wants to be the embarrassed dude losing a match. It isn’t team sports where a player can do great and the rest of his team stinks and loses the game. You either do well (win) or you don’t (lose). You’ve probably seen me mention in other forums but that five set record in the biggest matches, instead of the Rafa H2H, is probably the worst number of Roger’s career. It does speak to how incredible a player he is that he is still the greatest/most successful to date given he struggles badly in close matches against top competition. For the most part in his prime Roger either won easily or lost a 5 set war at slams. As for Rafa’s struggles you are in denial at what’s taken place. He didn’t stink last year because of a 2 month wrist injury the year before or having his appendix removed. He was just another year older. He isn’t moving as well and the topspin isn’t as deadly. Without great movement and the deep high bouncing topspin he is not going to play at an elite level period. There is no great serve to lean on, and he can’t end points on his own terms. Add to that a player’s confidence naturally takes a hit as the bad results pile up. I do think he will have a better 2016 but health is not his problem right now (for a change).

Moxie wrote:
Let me just say again, just because you find those 5th set losses deplorable, it doesn’t mean he would have otherwise have won them. Just because he should have beaten Del Potro and Safin in those matches “on paper,” doesn’t do justice to the matches, as they were played, and the opponents on the day. It’s difficult to say that you overrate Roger, because he’s so good, but sometimes you do. And you underrate the opponent. It’s not like he lost those matches to chumps. And of course he was given a decent chance to win them, if not even being favored. He has a better record than almost anyone at 3 of the 4 Majors. However, there are reasons that the opponent was better on the day, and that Federer is human enough to have an off day. He isn’t missing those 3 or whatever Majors simply because he sucks at 5th sets. It’s more complicated than that, and the opponents he faced had something to say about it. For the record, it’s not that Rafa became “so weak” after winning RG. He injured his wrist, missed all of the USO season, and then had to have his appendix out. That’s quite a lot of bad luck. The rebound has taken longer than expected, I’ll give you that. But, yes, it left Djokovic without his greatest competitor. Hopefully that changes in 2016. Additionally, I’m going to be shocked and dismayed if the whole rest of the field just folds up its tent and gives up. There has to be a couple of young players with enough starch in their shorts to step up at least occasionally.

Well there are many ways to view the same situation. 3-8 in those matches I mentioned speaks to itself. A loss is a loss, meaning it is an awful result because aside from dying on court there is no worse result than losing. It is an individual sport so there is nowhere to hide. You either prove yourself superior or inferior. No one wants to be the embarrassed dude losing a match. It isn’t team sports where a player can do great and the rest of his team stinks and loses the game. You either do well (win) or you don’t (lose). You’ve probably seen me mention in other forums but that five set record in the biggest matches, instead of the Rafa H2H, is probably the worst number of Roger’s career. It does speak to how incredible a player he is that he is still the greatest/most successful to date given he struggles badly in close matches against top competition. For the most part in his prime Roger either won easily or lost a 5 set war at slams. As for Rafa’s struggles you are in denial at what’s taken place. He didn’t stink last year because of a 2 month wrist injury the year before or having his appendix removed. He was just another year older. He isn’t moving as well and the topspin isn’t as deadly. Without great movement and the deep high bouncing topspin he is not going to play at an elite level period. There is no great serve to lean on, and he can’t end points on his own terms. Add to that a player’s confidence naturally takes a hit as the bad results pile up. I do think he will have a better 2016 but health is not his problem right now (for a change).

I haven't actually seen you mention on other websites about Roger's 5th set record being the worst of his CV, but there is an argument for that.  It's actually one of the perplexing things about his overall great play.  But that doesn't mean that he would have or should have otherwise won all of those matches you mention.  It's fair to bring in the opponent and the context, which I have already elaborated on.
I'm not sure why I'm in denial about Rafa's chances for 2016.  His problems in 2015 weren't about his wrist or his health, they were about his confidence, which he was straightforward about.  He was finding form and confidence towards the end of this year.  He's a step slower with the dodgy knees, but quickness isn't the only element of his game.  I've never said he's going to retake tennis.  But, and especially with the dearth of up-and-comers, there is no reason to think that he doesn't have a chance to get in the mix.  Fed fans have been hoping the same for rather a long time now.  No one can pretend that Roger still has a Major in him, at 34, and Rafa doesn't, at 29.

 

 

[Moxie]

Twisted wrote:
<blockquote>
Moxie wrote:
Let me just say again, just because you find those 5th set losses deplorable, it doesn’t mean he would have otherwise have won them. Just because he should have beaten Del Potro and Safin in those matches “on paper,” doesn’t do justice to the matches, as they were played, and the opponents on the day. It’s difficult to say that you overrate Roger, because he’s so good, but sometimes you do. And you underrate the opponent. It’s not like he lost those matches to chumps. And of course he was given a decent chance to win them, if not even being favored. He has a better record than almost anyone at 3 of the 4 Majors. However, there are reasons that the opponent was better on the day, and that Federer is human enough to have an off day. He isn’t missing those 3 or whatever Majors simply because he sucks at 5th sets. It’s more complicated than that, and the opponents he faced had something to say about it. For the record, it’s not that Rafa became “so weak” after winning RG. He injured his wrist, missed all of the USO season, and then had to have his appendix out. That’s quite a lot of bad luck. The rebound has taken longer than expected, I’ll give you that. But, yes, it left Djokovic without his greatest competitor. Hopefully that changes in 2016. Additionally, I’m going to be shocked and dismayed if the whole rest of the field just folds up its tent and gives up. There has to be a couple of young players with enough starch in their shorts to step up at least occasionally.

Well there are many ways to view the same situation. 3-8 in those matches I mentioned speaks to itself. A loss is a loss, meaning it is an awful result because aside from dying on court there is no worse result than losing. It is an individual sport so there is nowhere to hide. You either prove yourself superior or inferior. No one wants to be the embarrassed dude losing a match. It isn’t team sports where a player can do great and the rest of his team stinks and loses the game. You either do well (win) or you don’t (lose). You’ve probably seen me mention in other forums but that five set record in the biggest matches, instead of the Rafa H2H, is probably the worst number of Roger’s career. It does speak to how incredible a player he is that he is still the greatest/most successful to date given he struggles badly in close matches against top competition. For the most part in his prime Roger either won easily or lost a 5 set war at slams. As for Rafa’s struggles you are in denial at what’s taken place. He didn’t stink last year because of a 2 month wrist injury the year before or having his appendix removed. He was just another year older. He isn’t moving as well and the topspin isn’t as deadly. Without great movement and the deep high bouncing topspin he is not going to play at an elite level period. There is no great serve to lean on, and he can’t end points on his own terms. Add to that a player’s confidence naturally takes a hit as the bad results pile up. I do think he will have a better 2016 but health is not his problem right now (for a change).</blockquote>

Twisted wrote:
<blockquote>
Moxie wrote:
Let me just say again, just because you find those 5th set losses deplorable, it doesn’t mean he would have otherwise have won them. Just because he should have beaten Del Potro and Safin in those matches “on paper,” doesn’t do justice to the matches, as they were played, and the opponents on the day. It’s difficult to say that you overrate Roger, because he’s so good, but sometimes you do. And you underrate the opponent. It’s not like he lost those matches to chumps. And of course he was given a decent chance to win them, if not even being favored. He has a better record than almost anyone at 3 of the 4 Majors. However, there are reasons that the opponent was better on the day, and that Federer is human enough to have an off day. He isn’t missing those 3 or whatever Majors simply because he sucks at 5th sets. It’s more complicated than that, and the opponents he faced had something to say about it. For the record, it’s not that Rafa became “so weak” after winning RG. He injured his wrist, missed all of the USO season, and then had to have his appendix out. That’s quite a lot of bad luck. The rebound has taken longer than expected, I’ll give you that. But, yes, it left Djokovic without his greatest competitor. Hopefully that changes in 2016. Additionally, I’m going to be shocked and dismayed if the whole rest of the field just folds up its tent and gives up. There has to be a couple of young players with enough starch in their shorts to step up at least occasionally.

Well there are many ways to view the same situation. 3-8 in those matches I mentioned speaks to itself. A loss is a loss, meaning it is an awful result because aside from dying on court there is no worse result than losing. It is an individual sport so there is nowhere to hide. You either prove yourself superior or inferior. No one wants to be the embarrassed dude losing a match. It isn’t team sports where a player can do great and the rest of his team stinks and loses the game. You either do well (win) or you don’t (lose). You’ve probably seen me mention in other forums but that five set record in the biggest matches, instead of the Rafa H2H, is probably the worst number of Roger’s career. It does speak to how incredible a player he is that he is still the greatest/most successful to date given he struggles badly in close matches against top competition. For the most part in his prime Roger either won easily or lost a 5 set war at slams. As for Rafa’s struggles you are in denial at what’s taken place. He didn’t stink last year because of a 2 month wrist injury the year before or having his appendix removed. He was just another year older. He isn’t moving as well and the topspin isn’t as deadly. Without great movement and the deep high bouncing topspin he is not going to play at an elite level period. There is no great serve to lean on, and he can’t end points on his own terms. Add to that a player’s confidence naturally takes a hit as the bad results pile up. I do think he will have a better 2016 but health is not his problem right now (for a change).

</blockquote>
I haven’t actually seen you mention on other websites about Roger’s 5th set record being the worst of his CV, but there is an argument for that. It’s actually one of the perplexing things about his overall great play. But that doesn’t mean that he would have or should have otherwise won all of those matches you mention. It’s fair to bring in the opponent and the context, which I have already elaborated on. I’m not sure why I’m in denial about Rafa’s chances for 2016. His problems in 2015 weren’t about his wrist or his health, they were about his confidence, which he was straightforward about. He was finding form and confidence towards the end of this year. He’s a step slower with the dodgy knees, but quickness isn’t the only element of his game. I’ve never said he’s going to retake tennis. But, and especially with the dearth of up-and-comers, there is no reason to think that he doesn’t have a chance to get in the mix. Fed fans have been hoping the same for rather a long time now. No one can pretend that Roger still has a Major in him, at 34, and Rafa doesn’t, at 29.

Another point, which you failed to address, and since you've restated that winning is the only thing, and that short of dying there is no worse result than losing:  why is Federer's record of reaching finals and SFs, (and QFs) interesting to you, in the ones he didn't win?[/quote]

 

[Moxie]

Moxie wrote:
<blockquote>
britbox wrote:
I don’t have an issue with Djoker passing Fed even though I don’t think it will happen.

How about if Rafa were to pass him?</blockquote>
whatever moxie is smoking must be good.  

I didn't say it would happen.  I only asked BB if he'd have an issue with Rafa passing Roger.  It's a theoretical question.

 

[brokenshoelace]

Rafa doesn’t care to win.

Ahahaaaaaaaaaaahaaaaaaaaaa. Of all the false-confidence and delusional grandiose claims you make about Nadal, this has to take the cake.