Tennis Mega Trends

[Front242]

RE: Are You Happy With the Direction the Sport is Going

There are many players out there with immense skill who end up gassed before matches finish. Dimitrov is a prime example. Gasquet another. Benneteau. There are truckloads of guys with all the skills to win matches against the top players but often they get too jaded and cramp. Again I'll cite Dimitrov here. Many times earlier this year he had chances to beat top players (Nadal, Djokovic, Murray) and each time he was physically spent. So he has the skill and if he had more fitness he could quite possibly have won some of those. All it takes is a higher red blood cell count and a bit of EPO and HGH can easily sort that. Yeah sure he could train harder too, but my point is, it's not all about skill. Stamina is a huge aspect of any sport and definitely tennis. If you already have the skills as the top guys do and add extra stamina by way of PEDs you'll be an absolute beast. There are no draws in tennis. One guy has to win and the other has to lose and I'm quite sure if they can get away with it scott free they'll go to any lengths to attain that extra fitness, be it legit or illegally acquired.

Edit: Also, I realize Dimitrov did beat Djokovic in one of those encounters but he had chances in their first encounter this year also but mostly in those matches outside the slams he just didn't have it physically in him to push hard enough to win except for one match, where frankly I dunno how he did it after such severe cramp. Bottom line though again is he has the skills in abundance and added stamina would greatly aid the chances of players like him against the top guys. Now imagine him juiced up and with beast like stamina. Well, he's already proven he has more than enough ability to beat the top guys so the added fitness will surely only benefit him.

 

[Johnsteinbeck]

RE: Are You Happy With the Direction the Sport is Going

^ alright, now you're getting into territory where i get close to agreeing with the hunter. Dimitrov (and to a lesser degree Gasquet) is not a case of someone where EPO or anything else would make the difference. Grigor, for whatever reason, is waaaay behind where he should be in terms of fitness. i think huntingyou overdoes it with likening the pro matches to octogenarian moonballing, but the fact is, Dimitrov is gassed in second round matches that barely go over two hours. he needs to work on his fitness, and he needs to work on it hard. doping will help you get from 98% to 100, or 99 to 103. Dimitrov is currently at something like 78.

however, where i strongly disagree with huntingyou is that he seems to deny or just talk down that PED even in a sport like tennis CAN of course make a difference, in the matches where players of almost equal skill and capabilities match. if everything else is near equal, how could a slight advantage in strength or stamina Not make a difference? of course it would!

for the record, however, i don't think that top level tennis has a doping problem. might be naive, but i really think it's not the case. there's so much other stuff to concentrate on when trying to improve your game, such a load of technical details before you get to the point of doping. think about it, the simpler the sport, the earlier you get to the point of looking for an advantage through ... bodily enhancement. running, cycling - there's only so much you can change in tactics and technique. that's different for tennis. i mean, a strong fitness regime didn't even enter the sport until Lendl in the eighties!
plus, once you're way at the top, the benefit doesn't justify the risk, if you ask me. which is why i'm not surprised that the sport's known doping cases come from journeymen - because they get to the point of reaching a limit, and face the question whether they have to stop playing because they can't make a living from it, or they take a risk and dope.

 

[Front242]

RE: Are You Happy With the Direction the Sport is Going

^ alright, now you're getting into territory where i get close to agreeing with the hunter. Dimitrov (and to a lesser degree Gasquet) is not a case of someone where EPO or anything else would make the difference. Grigor, for whatever reason, is waaaay behind where he should be in terms of fitness. i think huntingyou overdoes it with likening the pro matches to octogenarian moonballing, but the fact is, Dimitrov is gassed in second round matches that barely go over two hours. he needs to work on his fitness, and he needs to work on it hard. doping will help you get from 98% to 100, or 99 to 103. Dimitrov is currently at something like 78.

however, where i strongly disagree with huntingyou is that he seems to deny or just talk down that PED even in a sport like tennis CAN of course make a difference, in the matches where players of almost equal skill and capabilities match. if everything else is near equal, how could a slight advantage in strength or stamina Not make a difference? of course it would!

for the record, however, i don't think that top level tennis has a doping problem. might be naive, but i really think it's not the case. there's so much other stuff to concentrate on when trying to improve your game, such a load of technical details before you get to the point of doping. think about it, the simpler the sport, the earlier you get to the point of looking for an advantage through ... bodily enhancement. running, cycling - there's only so much you can change in tactics and technique. that's different for tennis. i mean, a strong fitness regime didn't even enter the sport until Lendl in the eighties!
plus, once you're way at the top, the benefit doesn't justify the risk, if you ask me. which is why i'm not surprised that the sport's known doping cases come from journeymen - because they get to the point of reaching a limit, and face the question whether they have to stop playing because they can't make a living from it, or they take a risk and dope.

That's the thing though. It's all one big giant cover up if you ask me. I mean they expose nobodies on headlines to make everyone say oh yeah, see, they do actually clamp down on drug cheats. I'd hazard a guess though that they're too scared of tainting their sport by exposing top names and ruining the sport's appeal much like what has happened to cycling. I reckon they're all too aware of who's overstepping the line and taking stuff but it's in their best interest and that of the sport to not expose them.

What if said people only got to the top as a result of PEDs? That's another slant to it. They may be great players naturally but with an added edge it goes way beyond that. I can certainly see lower players trying to earn a living by taking stuff but top ranked players stand to make more money than most of us can ever imagine earning so the benefit to them is the highest, given that it seems unlikely anyone is going to expose top names anytime soon. Cheating even happens at work! I work as a credit insurance claims specialist and there are people who feel they have to cheat by stealing all the easy claims to keep up with me 'cos I simply consistently do more work than them. Not sure PEDs would help there though! But seriously, cheating goes on everywhere and if people can get away with it at the top or bottom level of the scale, they will. What if hypothetically many top players were taking stuff and that was what was consistently giving them that extra edge? If they were to stop and come back down to earth, who's to say the playing field wouldn't be much more level. They made Lance Armstrong out to be the bad guy but in reality as much as he was a blatant cheat for years, practically everyone else in his sport was doing the same. If you can't beat them, join them. Only way to perform at the same level as a drug cheat is to do the same yourself in many sports.

Back to tennis though. If you already possess a highly technical game and tons of variety but lack that physical edge to really consistently beat the best, then of course the extra benefits of PED usage will really make the difference between winning and losing.

Very good article here.

http://www.scotsman.com/sport/tennis/tom-english-tennis-and-the-anti-doping-debate-1-2992374

 

[Johnsteinbeck]

RE: Are You Happy With the Direction the Sport is Going

^ again, my main point regarding your argument was that the physical edge Novak&Co have over Grigor&Co is not what you make it to be. for one, it was exactly the Novak v Grigor encounters that showed the vast importance of the psychological side of things - remember those double faults? that's some huge differences, and Grigor could be juiced up to the rim without changing that. and on the other side, when things do get physical, Dimitrov has in the past folded so incredibly early, he had me in pure disbelief. with all due respect to Grigor, but i'm 100% certain that a great number of amateur athletes i know would be fitter than him. no PEDs needed for that. the difference between the top and the rest is big, but stamina is far from the main decisive point. some have the shots but lack the fitness, others have the fitness but lack the shots, and a whole lot of them simply lack the mental fortitude. of course, there could be PEDs, and of course, they'd make a difference - but put both Novak and Grigor on 'roids, EPO and whatnot, and Novak will still win 8/10 matches. guaranteed.

as for the cycling/Armstrong comparison - first off, i showed but a few of the structural differences between the sports that make it so much more likely for someone to reach for PEDs there than in tennis, and i think my point here stands. the other thing is that with Armstrong and cycling in general, there were indicators, there were witnesses and there was evidence. it was just a big struggle until it all popped out. do you have Anything even close to resembling that in tennis? all i ever heard of was a bunch of accusations on the internet, journalists wondering about lax controls, and some players in the triple digits complaining. again, call me naive, but i just don't see how in all those years, there wouldn't be some leak - a former top player, coach, disgruntled team member, anyone, who could point to anything that comes close to resembling a factual support for doping.

 

[Front242]

RE: Are You Happy With the Direction the Sport is Going

^ again, my main point regarding your argument was that the physical edge Novak&Co have over Grigor&Co is not what you make it to be. for one, it was exactly the Novak v Grigor encounters that showed the vast importance of the psychological side of things - remember those double faults? that's some huge differences, and Grigor could be juiced up to the rim without changing that. and on the other side, when things do get physical, Dimitrov has in the past folded so incredibly early, he had me in pure disbelief. with all due respect to Grigor, but i'm 100% certain that a great number of amateur athletes i know would be fitter than him. no PEDs needed for that. the difference between the top and the rest is big, but stamina is far from the main decisive point. some have the shots but lack the fitness, others have the fitness but lack the shots, and a whole lot of them simply lack the mental fortitude. of course, there could be PEDs, and of course, they'd make a difference - but put both Novak and Grigor on 'roids, EPO and whatnot, and Novak will still win 8/10 matches. guaranteed.

as for the cycling/Armstrong comparison - first off, i showed but a few of the structural differences between the sports that make it so much more likely for someone to reach for PEDs there than in tennis, and i think my point here stands. the other thing is that with Armstrong and cycling in general, there were indicators, there were witnesses and there was evidence. it was just a big struggle until it all popped out. do you have Anything even close to resembling that in tennis? all i ever heard of was a bunch of accusations on the internet, journalists wondering about lax controls, and some players in the triple digits complaining. again, call me naive, but i just don't see how in all those years, there wouldn't be some leak - a former top player, coach, disgruntled team member, anyone, who could point to anything that comes close to resembling a factual support for doping.

I take the point regarding the double faulting and thought of it as I typed what I did but part of it's likely down to fatigue rather than just mental toughness. When players get fatigued their serving suffers. Now, again, he shouldn't be tired after a short match but if he had more stamina it may or may not be different. Many drugs out there seriously enhance mental focus also. Stamina isn't the only gain. Guys on roids lifting weights don't just go and lift huge weights 'cos they feel lighter than they should, they get mental stimulation/enhancement that tells their brain "I can do this". Same would apply to tennis. I won't name any names but there are some candidates out there with serious roid rage in their eyes. Having seen the facial expressions of guys taking stuff in gyms all my life I can vouch that guys on hardcore stuff have a mad look in their eyes when they're totally focused. Unlike anything a normal person looks like.

Interesting article from 1992 here regarding steroids in tennis.

http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1368&dat=19920601&id=nN8VAAAAIBAJ&sjid=4hIEAAAAIBAJ&pg=5751,254816

 

[ClayDeath]

RE: Are You Happy With the Direction the Sport is Going

we might as revisit some thing princess moxie suggested earlier:

what about the strategic nature of the game at the very top. you have to be able to think clearly and so you can solve problems on the court. call it analysis and diagnosis on the run.


and then there is this thing called "reltntless will" and "testicular fortitude".


you either have these abilities or you do not.


no amount of doping can help you with this.


this is what makes this sport the toughest on the planet in so many ways.

 

[Johnsteinbeck]

RE: Are You Happy With the Direction the Sport is Going

^ again, my main point regarding your argument was that the physical edge Novak&Co have over Grigor&Co is not what you make it to be. for one, it was exactly the Novak v Grigor encounters that showed the vast importance of the psychological side of things - remember those double faults? that's some huge differences, and Grigor could be juiced up to the rim without changing that. and on the other side, when things do get physical, Dimitrov has in the past folded so incredibly early, he had me in pure disbelief. with all due respect to Grigor, but i'm 100% certain that a great number of amateur athletes i know would be fitter than him. no PEDs needed for that. the difference between the top and the rest is big, but stamina is far from the main decisive point. some have the shots but lack the fitness, others have the fitness but lack the shots, and a whole lot of them simply lack the mental fortitude. of course, there could be PEDs, and of course, they'd make a difference - but put both Novak and Grigor on 'roids, EPO and whatnot, and Novak will still win 8/10 matches. guaranteed.

as for the cycling/Armstrong comparison - first off, i showed but a few of the structural differences between the sports that make it so much more likely for someone to reach for PEDs there than in tennis, and i think my point here stands. the other thing is that with Armstrong and cycling in general, there were indicators, there were witnesses and there was evidence. it was just a big struggle until it all popped out. do you have Anything even close to resembling that in tennis? all i ever heard of was a bunch of accusations on the internet, journalists wondering about lax controls, and some players in the triple digits complaining. again, call me naive, but i just don't see how in all those years, there wouldn't be some leak - a former top player, coach, disgruntled team member, anyone, who could point to anything that comes close to resembling a factual support for doping.

I take the point regarding the double faulting and thought of it as I typed what I did but part of it's likely down to fatigue rather than just mental toughness. When players get fatigued their serving suffers. Now, again, he shouldn't be tired after a short match but if he had more stamina it may or may not be different. Many drugs out there seriously enhance mental focus also. Stamina isn't the only gain. Guys on roids lifting weights don't just go and lift huge weights 'cos they feel lighter than they should, they get mental stimulation/enhancement that tells their brain "I can do this". Same would apply to tennis. I won't name any names but there are some candidates out there with serious roid rage in their eyes. Having seen the facial expressions of guys taking stuff in gyms all my life I can vouch that guys on hardcore stuff have a mad look in their eyes when they're totally focused. Unlike anything a normal person looks like.

Interesting article from 1992 here regarding steroids in tennis.

http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1368&dat=19920601&id=nN8VAAAAIBAJ&sjid=4hIEAAAAIBAJ&pg=5751,254816

funny thing, i "liked" the post when i wanted to reply. oh well

it's not that i dispute the possibility, or self-esteem side effects of PEDs. but are seriously claiming that fatigue was a factor in Grigor's DFs? sorry, but you must be kidding me. Grigor had a first round bye and a straight set win before that match. the DFs came at 5-3 in the first set, with 26 minutes played. the game before took about two minutes (at Novak's serving pace and including a DF, Grigor had like five swings in that game) fatigue had as much to do with this as Harry Potter had. if Grigor showed even the slightest bit of fatigue at that point, then he shouldn't even survive a club level match. it was a mental lockdown, simple as that.


thanks for the article. but basically, that was a retiree ranting away, also complaining about matches being too long and players these days getting overpaid, all the while getting some hype for his new job as a commentator. and he's not even close to pointing to any evidence.



again: i'm with you on the idea that of course, PEDs can give a player an edge in tennis - we might disagree on the size of the effect, but i don't deny that there is one. and i don't deny that there's a possibility that there is abuse in the sport either. just saying that i've yet to hear someone make a compelling case on there actually being sytematic doping in tennis.

 

[Front242]

RE: Are You Happy With the Direction the Sport is Going

we might as revisit some thing princess moxie suggested earlier:

what about the strategic nature of the game at the very top. you have to be able to think clearly and so you can solve problems on the court. call it analysis and diagnosis on the run.


and then there is this thing called "reltntless will" and "testicular fortitude".


you either have these abilities or you do not.


no amount of doping can help you with this.


this is what makes this sport the toughest on the planet in so many ways.

Relentless will can come about from mental stimulation benefits of drugs as I mentioned. Testicular fortitude? Your nuts shrink from too much synthetic testosterone and you get just that (mad amounts of testosterone) from taking certain drugs. Your natural test shuts down and your body produces synthetic testosterone, giving you that often demented look in your eyes and relentless will actually just as you mentioned. Ever seen some fruitcakes on Sustanon 250 benching 205kg? I have. Spotted a Polish guy with 2 others (he needed 3 to safely spot that huge weight). He actually lifted it unassisted with us just there for safety purposes. Touched it off his chest for a one rep max and man did he have a demented look in his eyes.

So actually doping can give you everything but a strategic viewpoint as to how to play. Given many players are good enough to beat the top guys only for a little self belief and stamina though, I'd say there's a good chance drugs that help on both of those counts will make major inroads for their success in actually beating them. Remember mental enhancement is a benefit from many drugs so they do help you think clearer under pressure. Even over the counter taurine powder or tablets from any sports shop gives you a good deal of extra mental stimulation. Now imagine illegal substances compared to stuff you can get in Holland and Barrett, GNC or similar. There's no comparison as to the which is stronger. You get what you pay for...

 

[DarthFed]

RE: Are You Happy With the Direction the Sport is Going

We might hear more about this issue soon.

http://espn.go.com/espn/otl/story/_/id/9508288/biogenesis-whistleblower-broke-open-scandal-says-ncaa-mma-nba-other-athletes-used-clinic-mlb-investigation

 

[huntingyou]

RE: Are You Happy With the Direction the Sport is Going

yes, we are talking about doping in a sport with no confirm cases in the spotlight.

I thought this thread was about how do you feel about the technology for example, lack of variety, surfaces, S&V, slugfests and so on...but no, here we are again. I'm out

 

[ClayDeath]

RE: Are You Happy With the Direction the Sport is Going

I have to side with general huntingyou.

doping in our sport is a not an issue.


only at the lowest levels but who gives a damn about that. they are not driving the sport.

so it is hardly a trend.


the real trends--in my estimation at least-- are:

1. the runaway speed and the power in the game
2. convergence of court speeds as perceived by the masses but not necessarily the players. only a few players and the press cry about the convergence of courts speeds.

3. technology

4. the advent of a 2 handed forehand. it is coming. the day will come when both strokes will have to executed double handed.

5. ultra supreme fitness

6. dramatic increase of injuries in our sport



can we add a few more to these? what do you think?

 

[britbox]

RE: Are You Happy With the Direction the Sport is Going

Troicki banned for doping today guys.

 

[Johnsteinbeck]

RE: Are You Happy With the Direction the Sport is Going

Troicki banned for doping today guys.

Troicki banned for violating anti-doping regulations.

 

[Front242]

RE: Are You Happy With the Direction the Sport is Going

But it's a totally clean sport right? Just 'cos players don't test positive does not mean they're clean. Always remember this and think of good old Lance Armstrong. They hid test results and brushed them aside for years. Troicki's situation is either rather silly or dodgy. He's either extremely naive to have jeopardized his career as he did or he genuinely had something to hide so either way doping is very much an issue in tennis.

 

[Murat Baslamisli]

RE: Are You Happy With the Direction the Sport is Going

I have to side with general huntingyou.

doping in our sport is a not an issue.


only at the lowest levels but who gives a damn about that. they are not driving the sport.

so it is hardly a trend.


the real trends--in my estimation at least-- are:

1. the runaway speed and the power in the game
2. convergence of court speeds as perceived by the masses but not necessarily the players. only a few players and the press cry about the convergence of courts speeds.

3. technology

4. the advent of a 2 handed forehand. it is coming. the day will come when both strokes will have to executed double handed.

5. ultra supreme fitness

6. dramatic increase of injuries in our sport



can we add a few more to these? what do you think?

Clay, I was thinking about #4, the double handed forehand...and I thought it might be , but it is also possible that we might see the demise of backhand all together and see forehand on both sides. I can see players practicing lefty forehands more...what do you think?

 

[Kieran]

RE: Are You Happy With the Direction the Sport is Going

^^ Can't see it, Murat. It wouldn't be practical as the game grows faster, to limit your reach. Plus, this is the era of great forehands, if we take Fedal as an example.

But I do wonder will we see a great player who's a single handed backhand again soon. And by great, I mean a guy of historical stature who's a mutli-slam guy. It's kind of like S&V tennis, it would take a culture change, starting at youth level and in the clubs. Roger is the last great one, and this is because, I believe, he learned tennis under the old, fast-court regime. Sampras had a two-handed backhand to begin with and he gave it up because he couldn't see himself winning Wimbledon with it...

 

[Front242]

RE: Are You Happy With the Direction the Sport is Going

Florian Mayer hits a 2 handed FH and even volleys at the net with 2 hands! Must be a nightmare to play against.

 

[Johnsteinbeck]

RE: Are You Happy With the Direction the Sport is Going

But it's a totally clean sport right? Just 'cos players don't test positive does not mean they're clean. Always remember this and think of good old Lance Armstrong. They hid test results and brushed them aside for years. Troicki's situation is either rather silly or dodgy. He's either extremely naive to have jeopardized his career as he did or he genuinely had something to hide so either way doping is very much an issue in tennis.

absolutely it is. if Troicki was that naive, then it shows that it's not being serious enough yet. but people also need to distinguish this from a positive case. i'm all for strict punishment, because the issue needs to be taken seriously. but all the while, we must also accept that it isn't proof.

i think the other thing that the Armstrong case taught us is that in the long run, the truth will find a way out. that's hardly consolation, but it's the best i can hope for. i think in twenty years from now, we'll be able to be rather certain in the assessment of whether or not what we now see was an era tainted by doping.

 

[Murat Baslamisli]

RE: Are You Happy With the Direction the Sport is Going

^^ Can't see it, Murat. It wouldn't be practical as the game grows faster, to limit your reach.

I am not sure I understand brother. Having two forehands would give you the most reach on both sides, no?:huh: You never have to cross over your body and play open stance all day long.

 

[Kieran]

RE: Are You Happy With the Direction the Sport is Going

^^ Can't see it, Murat. It wouldn't be practical as the game grows faster, to limit your reach.

I am not sure I understand brother. Having two forehands would give you the most reach on both sides, no?:huh: You never have to cross over your body and play open stance all day long.

Stretch your arms out on both sides, brother. Then join the other hand. You lose reach...