Tennis Mega Trends

[ClayDeath]

RE: Are You Happy With the Direction the Sport is Going

if it was just about endurance than any fool can ride 200-300 miles a week on his bike and have all the endurance in the world for tennis.


elite athletes are elite athletes. that is the first thing you notice about them.

yohan kriek was a world class sprinter and a world class gymnast.

borg was gifted from the gods: he had a resting pulse rate of around 35 or less. and then he decided to outwork everybody. he could run forever and he had great movement. the man was an elite athlete.


roger, nadal, and nole are elite athletes. they don't need any bloody doping.

nadal had the same deal going as borg a few years ago: he was blessed with a massive vo2max. he could play for 6-7 hours.

and then on the practice courts he outworked everybody back then.

 

[britbox]

RE: Are You Happy With the Direction the Sport is Going

Doping is usually about getting the edge. Elite athletes will dope also. Armstrong is shamed now, but he was still an elite athlete. Ullrich doped and he had an amazing natural engine. The signor at Telekom actually said that while Ullrich doped most of his pro career, he rode clean in 2000 and 2001. He finished second in both those tours but they knew that with the wide spread doping programme at the US Postal team that they would not win the tour without doping. My feeling was that whilst Ullrich doped and admitted guilt, doping hurt him more than anyone else, because if none of them doped he'd probably have won 4 or 5 Tour de France titles instead of one.

 

[DarthFed]

RE: Are You Happy With the Direction the Sport is Going

if it was just about endurance than any fool can ride 200-300 miles a week on his bike and have all the endurance in the world for tennis.


elite athletes are elite athletes. that is the first thing you notice about them.

yohan kriek was a world class sprinter and a world class gymnast.

borg was gifted from the gods: he had a resting pulse rate of around 35 or less. and then he decided to outwork everybody. he could run forever and he had great movement. the man was an elite athlete.


roger, nadal, and nole are elite athletes. they don't need any bloody doping.

nadal had the same deal going as borg a few years ago: he was blessed with a massive vo2max. he could play for 6-7 hours.

and then on the practice courts he outworked everybody back then.

And the other fool that rides 200-300 miles a week AND dopes will have the clear edge over the guy who doesn't. That's the whole point here.

 

[huntingyou]

RE: Are You Happy With the Direction the Sport is Going

freaking amazing how the doping oracles are always the same people.

This thread it's about the sport's direction, last time I checked doping was a non-issue unless I missed the headlines news of the top guys getting caught. Tennis after all, it's a sport than even 80 years old people practice..can't say the same about basketball or baseball or Karate etc. You stand behind the baseline hitting a softball...yeah some matches can be brutal but on average this people are doing it under 2 hours....non athletes play for 2 hours easy. If we had gladiator matches like Nadal-Novak on a daily basis then I would be concern......

Nadal owns Roger, always has, somehow these fans are pegging their hopes on news coming out of Nadal being a cheater......"I told you so" comes to mind. Just like the insecure men that has to find out the history of his girl and can't let it go.

 

[britbox]

RE: Are You Happy With the Direction the Sport is Going

freaking amazing how the doping oracles are always the same people.

This thread it's about the sport's direction, last time I checked doping was a non-issue unless I missed the headlines news of the top guys getting caught. Tennis after all, it's a sport than even 80 years old people practice..can't say the same about basketball or baseball or Karate etc. You stand behind the baseline hitting a softball...yeah some matches can be brutal but on average this people are doing it under 2 hours....non athletes play for 2 hours easy. If we had gladiator matches like Nadal-Novak on a daily basis then I would be concern......

Nadal owns Roger, always has, somehow these fans are pegging their hopes on news coming out of Nadal being a cheater......"I told you so" comes to mind. Just like the insecure men that has to find out the history of his girl and can't let it go.

You're the first person to mention Nadal squire. Bear that in mind when talking about insecurity.

 

[Johnsteinbeck]

RE: Are You Happy With the Direction the Sport is Going

Karate at 90[video=youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HTyEvb--UVM[/video]

Basketball at 63 [video=youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Dx5beWLyDY[/video]

Cycling at 100[video=youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DW6xcsnqHb0[/video]

don't get me wrong, hunting - not that i think there's doping in tennis, but to explain the probabilty of doping in a sport with the way octogenarians still play it? nonsense

 

[ClayDeath]

RE: Are You Happy With the Direction the Sport is Going

Doping is usually about getting the edge. Elite athletes will dope also. Armstrong is shamed now, but he was still an elite athlete. Ullrich doped and he had an amazing natural engine. The signor at Telekom actually said that while Ullrich doped most of his pro career, he rode clean in 2000 and 2001. He finished second in both those tours but they knew that with the wide spread doping programme at the US Postal team that they would not win the tour without doping. My feeling was that whilst Ullrich doped and admitted guilt, doping hurt him more than anyone else, because if none of them doped he'd probably have won 4 or 5 Tour de France titles instead of one.

Ulrich was a fantastic rider. very powerful indeed.


you make an interesting point but we know it was widespread in cycling.



its a different story in tennis. it is simply a nonfactor and therefore not a trend in our sport.

they are cracking down on it here in baseball and football to some extent.

no telling if it goes on in the NBA. at least i don't know much about it.

but baseball and football(American football) are not endurance sports.

 

[huntingyou]

RE: Are You Happy With the Direction the Sport is Going

Karate at 90[video=youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HTyEvb--UVM[/video]

Basketball at 63 [video=youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Dx5beWLyDY[/video]

Cycling at 100[video=youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DW6xcsnqHb0[/video]

don't get me wrong, hunting - not that i think there's doping in tennis, but to explain the probabilty of doping in a sport with the way octogenarians still play it? nonsense

you got to use nonsense to deal with nonsense.

the loose point was tennis is not freaking mortal kombat....2 hour matches are fairly easy on the body for 1st rate atheletes

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freaking amazing how the doping oracles are always the same people.

This thread it's about the sport's direction, last time I checked doping was a non-issue unless I missed the headlines news of the top guys getting caught. Tennis after all, it's a sport than even 80 years old people practice..can't say the same about basketball or baseball or Karate etc. You stand behind the baseline hitting a softball...yeah some matches can be brutal but on average this people are doing it under 2 hours....non athletes play for 2 hours easy. If we had gladiator matches like Nadal-Novak on a daily basis then I would be concern......

Nadal owns Roger, always has, somehow these fans are pegging their hopes on news coming out of Nadal being a cheater......"I told you so" comes to mind. Just like the insecure men that has to find out the history of his girl and can't let it go.

You're the first person to mention Nadal squire. Bear that in mind when talking about insecurity.

talk to frost

 

[britbox]

RE: Are You Happy With the Direction the Sport is Going

you got to use nonsense to deal with nonsense.

the loose point was tennis is not freaking mortal kombat....2 hour matches are fairly easy on the body for 1st rate atheletes

I'm sure elite athletes can run 100 metres in a straight line without doping too... but...

 

[huntingyou]

RE: Are You Happy With the Direction the Sport is Going

you got to use nonsense to deal with nonsense.

the loose point was tennis is not freaking mortal kombat....2 hour matches are fairly easy on the body for 1st rate atheletes

I'm sure elite athletes can run 100 metres in a straight line without doping too... but...

yes, people of all ages run too.....we should test them!!!

your buddy frost (front) used the example of marathon matches and the overall physicality of tennis to imply there has to be some PED used that it's being kept under the rug.

you can try to be witty or you can spell out what you really think. I don't care, all I see are federer fans always crying about this issue with no proof but ill-conception of the sport and what ought to be but it isn't.

 

[Murat Baslamisli]

RE: Are You Happy With the Direction the Sport is Going

Hunting, I am really confused...When I say " Everything being equal, the guy with the PEDs have an edge" how do you get from that "Federer fans claim doping without proof" ??? I mean, how many conclusions do you have to jump to to get to that deduction?

 

[Front242]

RE: Are You Happy With the Direction the Sport is Going

you got to use nonsense to deal with nonsense.

the loose point was tennis is not freaking mortal kombat....2 hour matches are fairly easy on the body for 1st rate atheletes

I'm sure elite athletes can run 100 metres in a straight line without doping too... but...

That ranks right up there as my favourite quote of the year :laydownlaughingcool:

Says it all really. Most people can run 100 metres in a straight line pretty routinely but imagine the difference PEDs make. Hundredths of seconds win medals and break records and with what's at stake athletes will go the extra mile to do whatever they can to win without getting caught. Remember Carl Lewis calling out Ben Johnson saying it wasn't fair he won as he was on roids and then a short while later it's made public that Lewis was on gear too. The hypocrisy is unreal.

 

[DarthFed]

RE: Are You Happy With the Direction the Sport is Going

Hunting, I am really confused...When I say " Everything being equal, the guy with the PEDs have an edge" how do you get from that "Federer fans claim doping without proof" ??? I mean, how many conclusions do you have to jump to to get to that deduction?

And when I mentioned the possibility that Murray would have a matchup advantage on grass over Nole in the Wimbledon final it was because I'm a bitter Fed fan who can't get enough of "matchups" talk. Someone is oversensitive lately.

 

[huntingyou]

RE: Are You Happy With the Direction the Sport is Going

Hunting, I am really confused...When I say " Everything being equal, the guy with the PEDs have an edge" how do you get from that "Federer fans claim doping without proof" ??? I mean, how many conclusions do you have to jump to to get to that deduction?

And when I mentioned the possibility that Murray would have a matchup advantage on grass over Nole in the Wimbledon final it was because I'm a bitter Fed fan who can't get enough of "matchups" talk. Someone is oversensitive lately.

Quote where I say such nonsense? Your argument was mostly on match-up while my point was based on FORM. I never denied Murray as a more natural grass-courter nor I said he had no chance....I actually was rooting for him but after the QF felt than Novak was too strong to be denied by the way he beat Berdych and Haas.

Are you going to play this game too?

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Hunting, I am really confused...When I say " Everything being equal, the guy with the PEDs have an edge" how do you get from that "Federer fans claim doping without proof" ??? I mean, how many conclusions do you have to jump to to get to that deduction?

some Federer fans HERE are the only one bringing this topic into a thread that have no relevance to it.

roger fanboys in other forums, specifically places like mtf make a living out of tlaking about PED.

just go back a couple pages and read who mentioned it first

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bottom line, if we are going to talk PEDs.......let's bring NAMES. All this talk behind scripted talk it's BS; you want to discuss the rampant use of steroids in the sport, at least I need to see NAMES.

 

[DarthFed]

RE: Are You Happy With the Direction the Sport is Going

Hunting, I am really confused...When I say " Everything being equal, the guy with the PEDs have an edge" how do you get from that "Federer fans claim doping without proof" ??? I mean, how many conclusions do you have to jump to to get to that deduction?

And when I mentioned the possibility that Murray would have a matchup advantage on grass over Nole in the Wimbledon final it was because I'm a bitter Fed fan who can't get enough of "matchups" talk. Someone is oversensitive lately.

Quote where I say such nonsense? Your argument was mostly on match-up while my point was based on FORM. I never denied Murray as a more natural grass-courter nor I said he had no chance....I actually was rooting for him but after the QF felt than Novak was too strong to be denied by the way he beat Berdych and Haas.

Are you going to play this game too?

---

Hunting, I am really confused...When I say " Everything being equal, the guy with the PEDs have an edge" how do you get from that "Federer fans claim doping without proof" ??? I mean, how many conclusions do you have to jump to to get to that deduction?

some Federer fans HERE are the only one bringing this topic into a thread that have no relevance to it.

roger fanboys in other forums, specifically places like mtf make a living out of tlaking about PED.

just go back a couple pages and read who mentioned it first

---

bottom line, if we are going to talk PEDs.......let's bring NAMES. All this talk behind scripted talk it's BS; you want to discuss the rampant use of steroids in the sport, at least I need to see NAMES.

---

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I remember your point regarding Djokovic vs. Murray well. And when I responded that form coming in hardly means much regarding the final you somehow figured that I was just a bitter Roger fan who couldn't get enough of talking matchups. Well look at the rout that was that final...maybe I had a point :huh:

As for Front he has said before that he thinks ALL the top players are on something (including Federer). I don't agree with that at all. But regardless, doping and doping testing are a part of tennis (anyone who thinks the sport, or any sport for that matter, is completely clean is delusional) and the latter can certainly get tougher in some respects. So if he wants to bring that part of the game up I don't see the problem.

 

[huntingyou]

RE: Are You Happy With the Direction the Sport is Going

I remember your point regarding Djokovic vs. Murray well. And when I responded that form coming in hardly means much regarding the final you somehow figured that I was just a bitter Roger fan who couldn't get enough of talking matchups. Well look at the rout that was that final...maybe I had a point :huh:

As for Front he has said before that he thinks ALL the top players are on something (including Federer). I don't agree with that at all. But regardless, doping and doping testing are a part of tennis (anyone who thinks the sport, or any sport for that matter, is completely clean is delusional) and the latter can certainly get tougher in some respects. So if he wants to bring that part of the game up I don't see the problem.

Did I gloat when Nadal beat Novak? I remember our conversation going into French.

The Wimbledon final was strange and there is no doubt Novak just couldn't deliver the goods....the Delpo match took it's toll. The match-up issue it's one used often, roger fans the most or I'm making this up?. I told you to dig up our conversation, I was never derogatory although I did mention the match issue it's brought up too much by roger fans like yourself when often the form and circumstances leading into match play a greater role and that was the gist of my argument.
Guess what? Murray was the sharper player with a greater resolve that Sunday.

I could care less about doping, I enjoy tennis and I'm not going to waste an ounce of energy thinking about who is putting what into his body. The advantages of doping gained in tennis are speculative as well, this whole hypothetical scenarios where equal players, but one doping has an edge.......it's delusional talk since we don't know who is doping......maybe the losers are doping. The possibility of doping in sports it's as human as the certainty of vices in our society...still; it's all about incentives and right now there are no incentives for a player of Roger or Rafa's caliber to be doing illegal activity.

 

[ClayDeath]

RE: Are You Happy With the Direction the Sport is Going

Human growth hormone (HGH), is available only by prescription and is administered by injection. Athletes take it for improved endurance and strength although there is no definitive proof that it boosts athletic performance.

Androstenedione, known as "andro," was formerly an over the counter supplement but was banned by the NFL, Olympics, NCAA and later the MLB. It helps the body process testosterone.

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some of these substances are rapidly becoming a thing of the past folks. just look at the risks:


Erythropoietin

What is it?
Erythropoietin is a type of hormone used to treat anemia in people with severe kidney disease. It increases production of red blood cells and hemoglobin, resulting in improved movement of oxygen to the muscles. Epoetin, a synthetic form of erythropoietin, is commonly used by endurance athletes.

Risks
Erythropoietin use among competitive cyclists was common in the 1990s and allegedly contributed to at least 18 deaths. Inappropriate use of erythropoietin may increase the risk of thrombotic events, such as stroke, heart attack and pulmonary edema.

 

[Front242]

RE: Are You Happy With the Direction the Sport is Going

The possibility of doping in sports it's as human as the certainty of vices in our society...still; it's all about incentives and right now there are no incentives for a player of Roger or Rafa's caliber to be doing illegal activity.

If playing for history, fame and fortune isn't a big enough incentive to do anything to strive to be the best in your sport I dunno what is. Just ask Lance Armstrong. If you're brilliant naturally imagine that brilliance amplified with drugs. I can't lift the same weights as all the juiced up monkeys in my gym but at least I'll live longer than them. But point is, PEDs most certainly make a huge difference in any sport and a sport with laughable drug control measures makes it easy to get away with it.

 

[DarthFed]

RE: Are You Happy With the Direction the Sport is Going

I remember your point regarding Djokovic vs. Murray well. And when I responded that form coming in hardly means much regarding the final you somehow figured that I was just a bitter Roger fan who couldn't get enough of talking matchups. Well look at the rout that was that final...maybe I had a point :huh:

As for Front he has said before that he thinks ALL the top players are on something (including Federer). I don't agree with that at all. But regardless, doping and doping testing are a part of tennis (anyone who thinks the sport, or any sport for that matter, is completely clean is delusional) and the latter can certainly get tougher in some respects. So if he wants to bring that part of the game up I don't see the problem.

Did I gloat when Nadal beat Novak? I remember our conversation going into French.

The Wimbledon final was strange and there is no doubt Novak just couldn't deliver the goods....the Delpo match took it's toll. The match-up issue it's one used often, roger fans the most or I'm making this up?. I told you to dig up our conversation, I was never derogatory although I did mention the match issue it's brought up too much by roger fans like yourself when often the form and circumstances leading into match play a greater role and that was the gist of my argument.
Guess what? Murray was the sharper player with a greater resolve that Sunday.

I could care less about doping, I enjoy tennis and I'm not going to waste an ounce of energy thinking about who is putting what into his body. The advantages of doping gained in tennis are speculative as well, this whole hypothetical scenarios where equal players, but one doping has an edge.......it's delusional talk since we don't know who is doping......maybe the losers are doping. The possibility of doping in sports it's as human as the certainty of vices in our society...still; it's all about incentives and right now there are no incentives for a player of Roger or Rafa's caliber to be doing illegal activity.

Yes, the Nole-Nadal match where you said Djokovic had zero chance if it was sunny. And you were again mostly basing this on Nadal being the much better clay court player (no argument there) and form (Rafa beating up on good old David Ferrer, Stan and Roger at Madrid and Rome). If we had a conversation before the FO it was probably me telling you that Nole had a much better chance than you wanted to admit because... he ain't Ferrer, Stan or Roger on clay. Nole has one of the best 2 HBH in history that can neutralize Rafa's forehand, even on clay at times.

Similar deal at Wimbledon...Murray is not Haas, Del Po, or Chardy on grass. What Murray is...a similar player style wise to Nole but with a much better 1st serve which is something that featured big time in that match. You might have to reconsider the stance that matchup edges is some mythical thing being brought up to somehow excuse Roger's horrific performances vs Rafa (not sure where you got that).

As for PED's we just have a fundamental difference in how we view them. The incentive is in the edge. Many people will go to any length necessary to be the best. Money and glory are huge incentives. And the risks are often perceived to be minimal since the testing procedures/capabilities are usually behind the doping methods. Olympic athletes who have been caught doping were likely elite athletes long before they thought of doping. Why would they dope then and risk the shame? Well...who remembers the dude wearing the silver medal??

There is zero doubt that there are types of PED's that boost endurance and strength, both of which will help tennis players. Anabolic steroids won't help tennis players but things like EPO, blood doping and many other PED's would certainly benefit them.

 

[ClayDeath]

RE: Are You Happy With the Direction the Sport is Going

too risky for the all time greats to consider it. and they are the ones who bring home the bacon. they are the ones who are taking the sport to new heights. the sport rests on their shoulders. so they would have the most to lose if caught doping.


those out of the top 200-300 don't really have the talent and the gift. nobody gives a damn what they do or what they don't do. they are all struggling to make ends meet anyway.


these things clearly help athletes in other sports. our sport requires an immense amount of skill and true natural athletic ability.

also not every bloody match is 6 hours long. some are but you are talking about an elite athlete who is also an all time great. and hence 1 in 30 billion.

no amount of doping will buy you nole`s movement or nadal`s topspin forehand.

you can dope for 50 years and you still wont be able to play like roger did in his prime.

these guys already have their edge: they are the best of the best and the greatest of the greatest ever lived.