Tennis History “What If’s”

[Moxie]

Probably you would be very disappointed when you would find out how many names from foreign countries were involved in that shit :lulz2::bloodsucker1:

The only thing that will disappoint Front is when he finds out it doesn't include Nadal. And even though Nadal was barely even in tennis when Fuentes got arrested, he hangs onto that hope. He doesn't give a hoot about the Fuentes scandal, otherwise.

 

[Jelenafan]

So no one may be able to say that it would have had "zero" effect to have had a shot clock on Nadal from years back, neither can we say he wouldn't have adjusted to it. But I challenge you to come up with how it might really have changed his 19 Majors, and other records and achievements. He's an adaptable player. One could argue more than most. And to reduce his achievements to some notion of indulging slow play seems WAY over-determined, to me. I'm not sure what to say about your implication that he didn't face much competition in his last 2 Majors, so the shot clock might not have featured. Is that what you're saying? I still think it's forcing a point to say that he'd have lost even 2 Majors he won, were he forced to play faster. Which ones would you suggest? Surely none against Novak, who is not speedy, himself. Wimbledon against Roger? AO against Roger? Any of his RG wins?

This is degenerating into one of those deconstructive arguments to revise actual tennis results ( ala he wouldn’t have won as much if he wasn’t a lefty) into some theoretical lower count for Rafa.

 

[Moxie]

This is degenerating into one of those deconstructive arguments to revise actual tennis results ( ala he wouldn’t have won as much if he wasn’t a lefty) into some theoretical lower count for Rafa.

And the bounce back came off of a post I made about actual bad behavior from Djokovic. Not much reaction to that, but a lot of conversation about Nadal's slow play. It's the only trope they've got, and it's gets recited over and over again. My point was small, but it's remarkable how much people are willing to reconsider Nadal's whole career, if he'd been forced to play faster.

 

[Carol]

The only thing that will disappoint Front is when he finds out it doesn't include Nadal. And even though Nadal was barely even in tennis when Fuentes got arrested, he hangs onto that hope. He doesn't give a hoot about the Fuentes scandal, otherwise.

He should be focused on others but......he prefers not think about it , very convenient for him

 

[Moxie]

He should be focused on others but......he prefers not think about it , very convenient for him

He basically only thinks one guy in tennis dopes. And it IS very convenient for him.

 

[Bonaca]

And the bounce back came off of a post I made about actual bad behavior from Djokovic. Not much reaction to that, but a lot of conversation about Nadal's slow play. It's the only trope they've got, and it's gets recited over and over again. My point was small, but it's remarkable how much people are willing to reconsider Nadal's whole career, if he'd been forced to play faster.

What was the intention of your post about Novak’s behaviour?
This is the what-if Thread, and I questioned what if Nadal is forced to play faster. No more and no less. I never wrote it would effect his whole career , my point was, similar to mrzz, it would have a negative effect on his game.
I also wrote I have no idea what effect it would have on his overall titles.

 

[mrzz]

One of the aspects of umpire discretion as to when to restart the shot clock is how long the last point was. Bonaca might call this Nadal being protected, but long base-line rallies is a feature of today's game, not just Nadal's, so umpire's deciding when to restart the shot clock benefits many players. As to "rushing" Nadal's serve, yes, the shot clock has that effect, but he'd also shortened his obsessive routine over the years, anyway. I don't know that you can say he's especially "rushed" so much as not indulged. That's not terrible for him, either, if you ask me. He serves better than he did when he dawdled, years ago. His routine has not been one thing, over the years. Even Front will tell you that he didn't have a slow routine early on. At it's worst, it included his socks, so that changed.

The umpire deciding when to start the clock is obviously a good thing -- actually the aspect that makes the shot clock possible. I assumed that he meant that some players still escape being penalized even when the shot clock shows a big fat zero for everyone to see. I have seen that multiple times (but for different players, I was not counting the times I saw that happen to Nadal, if in fact I did -- maybe at USOPEN once).

For sure now Nadal serves better than he use to serve -- that is the whole point of this "what if" scenario: how that would have affected him when his serve was way worst than it is now.

But I challenge you to come up with how it might really have changed his 19 Majors, and other records and achievements.

Honestly, this is so obvious that it seems that you only want me to make the effort to write it down. Think about any match that was decided in a few points here and there. Think about one single saved break point that Nadal saved by making some absurd save, or even some absurd shot making. It is obvious that at least some of those could not come out so good, be it for him not being able to catch his breath the way he wanted, or to focus on the serve the way he wanted. But no, I do not have the time and the energy to go through his matches and find that perfect example.

And to reduce his achievements to some notion of indulging slow play seems WAY over-determined, to me

This is degenerating into one of those deconstructive arguments to revise actual tennis results ( ala he wouldn’t have won as much if he wasn’t a lefty) into some theoretical lower count for Rafa.

It is not, because the point here was not argue that Nadal is an "inferior" player, it was just to explore that particular "what if". In this particular case, I think it would have a negative impact on his major count. That is what what if scenarios do: they impact the outcome. Are you guys so absurdly defensive that is forbidden to consider scenarios where Nadal wins less?

What if grass where banned from tennis in the eighties? Federer would have a lot less majors. What if tennis was only played on clay? Federer would have just a handfull of majors. What if tennis were played with bigger racquets? Probably Federer would have less majors? What if all hard courts were slow and high bouncing? Federer would have less majors.

See? It doesn't hurt that much.

 

[Jelenafan]

What was the intention of your post about Novak’s behaviour?
This is the what-if Thread, and I questioned what if Nadal is forced to play faster. No more and no less. I never wrote it would effect his whole career , my point was, similar to mrzz, it would have a negative effect on his game.
I also wrote I have no idea what effect it would have on his overall titles.

Sigh.

I so wished this What If didn’t devolve into the usual player bashing.

So let’s autocorrect:

What if Djokovic had hit the lineman in the 2016 FO ?
He would have been penalized and still gone on to win the FO.

What if a shot clock had been enforced on Nadal earlier in his career? Rafa would have won his 19 Majors in a shorter duration on court, between 3-4 lesser hours overall.

Now let’s get back to general What If Questions.

Such as, how do we envision the game if the PTB had changed to only a one serve rule in match play?
I imagine some tense “risk it all” moments in big matches. Big Servers would gamble , and depending on their form that day could still prevail over more consistent baseliners.

Not always but IMO it would happen.

 

[Moxie]

Sigh.

I so wished this What If didn’t devolve into the usual player bashing.

So let’s autocorrect:

What if Djokovic had hit the lineman in the 2016 FO ?
He would have been penalized and still gone on to win the FO.

No, he'd have been disqualified and wouldn't have won that FO or the Nole Slam. That was my point.

 

[Moxie]

The umpire deciding when to start the clock is obviously a good thing -- actually the aspect that makes the shot clock possible. I assumed that he meant that some players still escape being penalized even when the shot clock shows a big fat zero for everyone to see. I have seen that multiple times (but for different players, I was not counting the times I saw that happen to Nadal, if in fact I did -- maybe at USOPEN once).

For sure now Nadal serves better than he use to serve -- that is the whole point of this "what if" scenario: how that would have affected him when his serve was way worst than it is now.



Honestly, this is so obvious that it seems that you only want me to make the effort to write it down. Think about any match that was decided in a few points here and there. Think about one single saved break point that Nadal saved by making some absurd save, or even some absurd shot making. It is obvious that at least some of those could not come out so good, be it for him not being able to catch his breath the way he wanted, or to focus on the serve the way he wanted. But no, I do not have the time and the energy to go through his matches and find that perfect example.





It is not, because the point here was not argue that Nadal is an "inferior" player, it was just to explore that particular "what if". In this particular case, I think it would have a negative impact on his major count. That is what what if scenarios do: they impact the outcome. Are you guys so absurdly defensive that is forbidden to consider scenarios where Nadal wins less?

What if grass where banned from tennis in the eighties? Federer would have a lot less majors. What if tennis was only played on clay? Federer would have just a handfull of majors. What if tennis were played with bigger racquets? Probably Federer would have less majors? What if all hard courts were slow and high bouncing? Federer would have less majors.

See? It doesn't hurt that much.

You don't take into account my point that Rafa could have adapted. And let's face it...what's absurd is comparing it to taking out an entire surface. A better comparison would be with something like pre-Hawkeye, or pre-TBs, something that compared rule changes/technology changes.

 

[Jelenafan]

No, he'd have been disqualified and wouldn't have won that FO or the Nole Slam. That was my point.

And my point is once you mention specific players in specific matches, the What IFs degenerates.

 

[Front242]

He basically only thinks one guy in tennis dopes. And it IS very convenient for him.

Er, no. A ton of players never get tired. That's not normal.

 

[Moxie]

Er, no. A ton of players never get tired. That's not normal.

You characterize it as "never getting tired," but I don't know what you base this on. I think we've all agreed that 21st C. players pay more attention to fitness. Being able to go the distance in long matches is a requirement of their job. Also, is that your only criterion, because you've bloviated about a lot of different things as evidence over the years? And you sure don't come up with much suspicion of other players, even when there's good reason to have some, based on your previously stated reasons. I'd still say you really are only interested in one player.

 

[Moxie]

And my point is once you mention specific players in specific matches, the What IFs degenerates.

It didn't degenerate when anyone mentioned Ancic, Haas or Graf.

 

[Jelenafan]

It didn't degenerate when anyone mentioned Ancic, Haas or Graf.

Point taken, yet aren’t they all retired or long gone players? B-)

 

[brokenshoelace]

Er, no. A ton of players never get tired. That's not normal.

All players get tired including Nadal, and it's actually been very obvious in the latter part of his career.

 

[Front242]

All players get tired including Nadal, and it's actually been very obvious in the latter part of his career.

Things have certainly calmed down since the introduction of the biological passport. No more AO 2012-esque shake your head in disbelief and laugh out loud moments. No normal human beings can run around in over 40c heat for 6 hours and wallop tennis balls till the cows come home.

 

[Nadalfan2013]

Things have certainly calmed down since the introduction of the biological passport. No more AO 2012-esque shake your head in disbelief and laugh out loud moments. No normal human beings can run around in over 40c heat for 6 hours and wallop tennis balls till the cows come home.

If I remember correctly both Nadal and Djokovic despite being in their prime were taking extra time between points (over the limit) to recuperate from these long points and heat. And both could barely stand up in the ceremony afterwards.

I am more intrigued by how a near 40-year-old can still battle for five long sets in a Wimbledon final while taking 10 seconds between points and barely taking a deep breath or sweating throughout the match.

 

[Front242]

If I remember correctly both Nadal and Djokovic despite being in their prime were taking extra time between points (over the limit) to recuperate from these long points and heat. And both could barely stand up in the ceremony afterwards.

I am more intrigued by how a near 40-year-old can still battle for five long sets in a Wimbledon final while taking 10 seconds between points and barely taking a deep breath or sweating throughout the match.

Not my fault you're delusional. He doesn't take 10 seconds but if he takes a shorter than normal break it's because he hit an ace or a well positioned serve to set up a one, two punch to end the point quickly. Frankly, you should be more concerned how it's laughable how long Nadal takes to towel himself down after he himself gets aced. Disrespectful to the server who should be allowed play at their own pace.

Federer does not play long points and hence the relative lack of fatigue compared to juice monkies who run all match. Try and keep up ffs or get your eyesight checked.

 

[Bonaca]

Not my fault you're delusional. He doesn't take 10 seconds but if he takes a shorter than normal break it's because he hit an ace or a well positioned serve to set up a one, two punch to end the point quickly. Frankly, you should be more concerned how it's laughable how long Nadal takes to towel himself down after he himself gets aced. Disrespectful to the server who should be allowed play at their own pace.

Federer does not play long points and hence the relative lack of fatigue compared to juice monkies who run all match. Try and keep up ffs or get your eyesight checked.

i remember a situation where the kyrgios guy was forced to play slower because of the time Nadal took between Nickˋs serves. He argued that the returner has to adapt to the speed of the server. Think he was right.