Tennis History “What If’s”

brokenshoelace

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Interesting article, and to know that it has been tried. I think we all agree, and as ex-players say in the article, that Bo5 is what makes the Majors special and difficult. i'll tell you one answer to you "what if" they'd stuck with the Bo3 in early rounds of Majors: Nadal would have lost to Isner in the first round of RG in 2011. Which means Roger would have likely won the title. Surely there are others. But back to Bo5, that's why I think the women should play Bo5 in the Majors, too. They are denied the epic matches, since we all agree that the 5-set format is the real battleground. As to @brokenshoelace's question to me above, about why they should play they same: I believe I answered it, in that it's one of the arguments that detractors use for equal pay, but I do think, much more importantly, it's because they don't get the historic matches that men do. Let's face it. At least 8 of everyone's top 10 greatest matches is going to be a Bo5, which means that only men's matches make the cut. And it's not just because "men play better." The drama comes from lots of different things. But the best-of-five has the highest possibility of drama. Here's another example, though it never would have happened, in the men's game: If the Wimbledon 2008 men's final were best of 3, which it would have been in the women's game, it would have been over in 2 and a bit of a damp squib. This is my point. Let the women play Bo5, too.

My question isn't why would women's tennis be turned into best of 5 (though I actually think fans would reject the idea), it's why would anyone suggest making early rounds of majors best of 3 just for the sake of universality.
 

Moxie

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My question isn't why would women's tennis be turned into best of 5 (though I actually think fans would reject the idea), it's why would anyone suggest making early rounds of majors best of 3 just for the sake of universality.
I explained this before. For the sake of the tedious people who wanted women and men to play the same amount of sets, it was an option. It's mostly just theoretical. I never said I liked the idea. If you don't remember all of the endless equal pay arguments, well, good for you, because they were repetitive and circular.
 

brokenshoelace

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I explained this before. For the sake of the tedious people who wanted women and men to play the same amount of sets, it was an option. It's mostly just theoretical. I never said I liked the idea. If you don't remember all of the endless equal pay arguments, well, good for you, because they were repetitive and circular.

Honestly, I tend to skip them. They're mostly people having really strong opinions about the money multi-millionaires are making and Ricardo being a misogynist.
 
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Moxie

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Honestly, I tend to skip them. They're mostly people having really strong opinions about the money multi-millionaires are making and Ricardo being a misogynist.
At the risk of keeping this going, not all tennis players are multi-millionaires. Far from it, and tennis is an expensive game to play, with the travel, etc. The real, important argument is about the bottom-end of the spectrum. Effort has been made to distribute the monies more equitably, men's and women's game. And I have no problem if independent ATP events can afford a higher pay-scale than independent WTA events. (There are exceptions where WTA events attract more crowds than equivalent ATP ones, which I can cite, if you like.) However, an interesting hidden discrimination is explained in this NYT article. The Australian Open has 128 slots for male qualifiers, but only 96 for women, at least as of 2017. That is twice as many options for lower-ranked men to make money there than for the women. (For the record, the USO has the same # of qualifiers men/women, and I don't know about RG/Wimbledon.) Some people that discuss pay equality talk about the quality of the relative games. But if it's harder for talented women to stay in the game, the overall quality will be reduced. Women's tennis has the best overall record of pay-equality in sports, so I'm not here to complain about that, really. I'm just pointing out that there are still built-in inequalities where there needn't be.
 

brokenshoelace

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At the risk of keeping this going, not all tennis players are multi-millionaires. Far from it, and tennis is an expensive game to play, with the travel, etc. The real, important argument is about the bottom-end of the spectrum. Effort has been made to distribute the monies more equitably, men's and women's game. And I have no problem if independent ATP events can afford a higher pay-scale than independent WTA events. (There are exceptions where WTA events attract more crowds than equivalent ATP ones, which I can cite, if you like.) However, an interesting hidden discrimination is explained in this NYT article. The Australian Open has 128 slots for male qualifiers, but only 96 for women, at least as of 2017. That is twice as many options for lower-ranked men to make money there than for the women. (For the record, the USO has the same # of qualifiers men/women, and I don't know about RG/Wimbledon.) Some people that discuss pay equality talk about the quality of the relative games. But if it's harder for talented women to stay in the game, the overall quality will be reduced. Women's tennis has the best overall record of pay-equality in sports, so I'm not here to complain about that, really. I'm just pointing out that there are still built-in inequalities where there needn't be.

No I agree, except the loudest tend to be the multi-millionaires (which makes some sense since their status allows them to be heard). It's just that they come off as extremely self-serving, and yes, that includes Serena.
 

Moxie

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No I agree, except the loudest tend to be the multi-millionaires (which makes some sense since their status allows them to be heard). It's just that they come off as extremely self-serving, and yes, that includes Serena.
Yes, and Djokovic when he weighed in at IW a couple of years ago, in a very unwise response to a hot potato question. But yes, it's the top players that get listened to. It's actually Venus who has done the heavy-lifting behind the scenes in the last decade or so for equal prize money. But also note how Roger and Rafa got slagged by a lower-ranked player for not coming to bat for the players during qualifying at the AO just a week ago. So damned if you use your star power, damned if you don't.
 

Ricardo

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Interesting article, and to know that it has been tried. I think we all agree, and as ex-players say in the article, that Bo5 is what makes the Majors special and difficult. i'll tell you one answer to you "what if" they'd stuck with the Bo3 in early rounds of Majors: Nadal would have lost to Isner in the first round of RG in 2011. Which means Roger would have likely won the title. Surely there are others. But back to Bo5, that's why I think the women should play Bo5 in the Majors, too. They are denied the epic matches, since we all agree that the 5-set format is the real battleground. As to @brokenshoelace's question to me above, about why they should play they same: I believe I answered it, in that it's one of the arguments that detractors use for equal pay, but I do think, much more importantly, it's because they don't get the historic matches that men do. Let's face it. At least 8 of everyone's top 10 greatest matches is going to be a Bo5, which means that only men's matches make the cut. And it's not just because "men play better." The drama comes from lots of different things. But the best-of-five has the highest possibility of drama. Here's another example, though it never would have happened, in the men's game: If the Wimbledon 2008 men's final were best of 3, which it would have been in the women's game, it would have been over in 2 and a bit of a damp squib. This is my point. Let the women play Bo5, too.
Men do play better. Bo5 for women? Sure if people don’t mind the snooze fest. Equality? Why not let the juniors and seniors do the same? Equality should not just for gender, can’t discriminate against age.
 

Ricardo

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Yes, and Djokovic when he weighed in at IW a couple of years ago, in a very unwise response to a hot potato question. But yes, it's the top players that get listened to. It's actually Venus who has done the heavy-lifting behind the scenes in the last decade or so for equal prize money. But also note how Roger and Rafa got slagged by a lower-ranked player for not coming to bat for the players during qualifying at the AO just a week ago. So damned if you use your star power, damned if you don't.
Venus? One can expect what happens when they let an idiot talk bs. Her argument, coming out of her primitive head, was that ‘we work as hard......’. Those below certain IQ should be in a cage.
 

Moxie

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Venus? One can expect what happens when they let an idiot talk bs. Her argument, coming out of her primitive head, was that ‘we work as hard......’. Those below certain IQ should be in a cage.
Now your usual hateful misogyny has really tipped over into crazy. Crikey, you'd think they were pulling that money out of your pocket. It will do no good to remind you that Venus' thoughtful and damning op-ed in the Times of London was publicly endorsed by Blair and Parliament, leading Wimbledon to finally award equal prize money to women. I post that only to remind others. Enjoy the view from your cage.
 

Ricardo

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Now your usual hateful misogyny has really tipped over into crazy. Crikey, you'd think they were pulling that money out of your pocket. It will do no good to remind you that Venus' thoughtful and damning op-ed in the Times of London was publicly endorsed by Blair and Parliament, leading Wimbledon to finally award equal prize money to women. I post that only to remind others. Enjoy the view from your cage.
Keep barking moxie. MR Blair of course would lick shit to score cheap pc points, funny you say his endorsement is some kind of achievement. Again who except those with brain size of a peanut would present an argument like that? Misogyny, yeah you need that word to get an orgasm, as usual.

Like Nadal said, why should it be equal prize money.....the quality of product is different. The fact you need to be reminded of this basic principle shows you do come from a cage, idiot.
 

Vince Evert

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Just wanted to note my strong support for women playing best of five.


Just wanted to note as far as the australian open tennis is concerned, men and women matches should be BO3 and moved to April (mid autumn) dates away from summer, because of climate change. Many of these matches are taking too long because the court surface is too slow.
 

MargaretMcAleer

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Just wanted to note as far as the australian open tennis is concerned, men and women matches should be BO3 and moved to April (mid autumn) dates away from summer, because of climate change. Many of these matches are taking too long because the court surface is too slow.


AO is always played in our summer,I have been going to the AO for many years and this year it has been mild compared to other years,yes we have had a couple of Hot days,I don;t think you can blame this on climate change.One of the main reasons AO is played at this time of year is because of the school holdiays.AO this year got the courts re-surfaced.Originally when the courts were changed to Plexi-Cushion is was a favorable court for offensive and defensive players,now over the years,it has slowed down.
Playing the AO in our Autumn would push back all tournaments,there is not enough time for that to happen.