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Moxie

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Moxie, I acknowledged that in the first paragraph of post #577. If I say that the "age guy" is not comparable to a transgender, but instead to a, let us say, "fake transgender", I am agreeing with your point.

In my particular case, my issue is never about transgender themselves, is about the idea that you can simply raise your hand and declare yourself what the hell you supposedly want to be at any point in time. And, yes, this is "not nearly the same as identifying your whole life as different than your gender assignment". We are in much more agreement than you believe, I guess.

I think you and I are much more in agreement than the rest, but I still think that your notion that anyone with a strong sense of themselves would raise their hand and declare themselves transgender for nefarious reasons flies in the face of reason. You may think that a dude puts on a dress to get up to no good, but I still think that's more machinations than are necessary for dudes to get up to no good. Dudes have gotten up to no good for millennia without putting a dress on. I still firmly believe that the people that declare themselves transgender or non-binary have a strong personal reason to do so, at great personal risk, and the vast majority of them are of no danger to society. Other than that their non-conformity freaks some people out.
 

Federberg

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here we go again with this tired narrative that those of us who see something wrong with how this trans-gender issue is playing out are paranoid or afraid. It would be funny if it wasn't concealing your own sense of moral superiority Moxie. I guess it shouldn't surprise me that you are more interested in being a social justice warrior about this than actually tackling this issue on its merits. I don't believe that anyone of us on the other side have shown any hostility or fear towards trans-genders. This isn't about trans-phobism.

Everyone has the right to be who they want to be. But there's another side to the issue. Must society cast aside the gender definitions that have existed since humanity learned to communicate and cohabit or do we welcome this new sub-grouping and celebrate who they really are? That's the issue here. Modern civilisation has been built on a foundation of reason and fact. All of a sudden society is expected to ditch a consensus view of what a gender is because a person of a different gender feels/wishes they are something they are not? Where does it end? Because it is certain that in time we will discover more sub-groups that feel/wish that they are something that they are not. What if someone has believed all their life that they are some sort of animal, a lion maybe? Are we, society, then forced to participate in this game? I have no doubt that at some point gene splicing or some such technological wizardry will make it possible for such a person to more closely attain their own version of reality. That doesn't mean that the rest of us should sanction putting that poor human-lion in a real lion's cage. The issue with trans-genderism is that a basic reality is being avoided. And that is the fact that anyone believing they possess a gender or should be a gender which they are not, has a mental issue of some sort. That is not a pejorative statement unless you wish to stigmatise the mentally ill, and I would therefore suggest you downgrade your social justice warrior badge;) Modern society now has the technology to approximate the desire, but the question needs to be asked, does society need to accommodate these people to such an extent that we surrender norms that have existed throughout our history? I don't think that we should. Society should welcome them into the fold no doubt, no one here is arguing otherwise, but without overturning existing norms wherever possible.

In many ways this falls down into the age old battle between progressivism and conservatism. It is a good battle, in fact it's a necessary one. Conservatives always want to hold the line and resist change, but progressives force us to accept that some change is necessary. In this case, it strikes me that the change that is necessary is the acceptance that transgenderism is a thing. But as a conservative (at least in this instance) I have to state that it's a step too far when society is asked to ignore science and accept whatever feelings/desires a transgender might have. What's next some dude ranked 800 on the ATP has enough and decides he's a woman and destroys the WTA? Is that ok with you? I would rather they create an organisation for she-dudes and he-babes frankly. Keep what we have in the ATP and WTA unsullied

I repeat... their feelings are not my facts
 

mrzz

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^^^^^^ okokokokok, wait a fucking a minute. I can be as understanding as I fucking can, but "pregnant person"?????? Sorry, but I am laughing my pants off here (literally).
 

Federberg

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^^^^^^ okokokokok, wait a fucking a minute. I can be as understanding as I fucking can, but "pregnant person"?????? Sorry, but I am laughing my pants off here (literally).
It's the new world that's being forced down our collective throats :D
 

Federberg

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It's a fucking sad day when I'm on the same side of an issue with Tucker Carlson!



and here's another...

 

tented

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It's a fucking sad day when I'm on the same side of an issue with Tucker Carlson!



I also hold the controversial view that the “T” in “LGBT” should be separated out into its own category. I understand how they came to be lumped together, as a group of minorities, but the reality is the “T” is quite different.

Lesbians, gays, and bisexuals are minorities within the range of sexual orientation, with the commonality of having some degree of homosexuality, whereas transgender people don’t necessarily have anything to do with homosexuality. For example, men who transition to female, and then have relationships with men, are (now) heterosexual females, and vice versa for women who become men, and then have relationships with women. Sure, there are some people who transition, and have relationships with the gender to which they’ve just transitioned, and could therefore be considered now to be gay, but that’s a coincidence, not a defining factor.

Now that I think about it as I write this, I guess the problem I see with grouping them together is that the first three (LGB) don’t need to transition or change to something else. There isn’t something which needs to be corrected, so to speak, whereas people in the T-group sense that something is wrong with their gender (or the bodies in which they were born), so something needs to be corrected.
 

Federberg

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I also hold the controversial view that the “T” in “LGBT” should be separated out into its own category. I understand how they came to be lumped together, as a group of minorities, but the reality is the “T” is quite different.

Lesbians, gays, and bisexuals are minorities within the range of sexual orientation, with the commonality of having some degree of homosexuality, whereas transgender people don’t necessarily have anything to do with homosexuality. For example, men who transition to female, and then have relationships with men, are (now) heterosexual females, and vice versa for women who become men, and then have relationships with women. Sure, there are some people who transition, and have relationships with the gender to which they’ve just transitioned, and could therefore be considered now to be gay, but that’s a coincidence, not a defining factor.

Now that I think about it as I write this, I guess the problem I see with grouping them together is that the first three (LGB) don’t need to transition or change to something else. There isn’t something which needs to be corrected, so to speak, whereas people in the T-group sense that something is wrong with their gender (or the bodies in which they were born), so something needs to be corrected.
What gets me is the imposition on society to change our norms to accommodate them. It’s not the same for homosexuals. All they want is the freedom to be who they are. We are being asked to suspend reality and accept what we know has no basis in science
 

Murat Baslamisli

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Justin Trudeau's pictures and videos come out of him in black face...bombshell before Canadian elections.
To me , it is not a big deal, and I don't believe for a second Justin is racist. What he is is the most hypocritical, incompetent , lying cunt I have ever seen in my life. He is always the "woke" one, pretty quick to label anyone homophobe, racist, bigoted etc...Now this.
And you know what, it is just like what Trump said when he said he would shoot someone in broad daylight and would still get his votes? Same with Justine...the progressive woke ones will still vote for him. The hypocrisy is breathtaking...
 

Federberg

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Justin Trudeau's pictures and videos come out of him in black face...bombshell before Canadian elections.
To me , it is not a big deal, and I don't believe for a second Justin is racist. What he is is the most hypocritical, incompetent , lying cunt I have ever seen in my life. He is always the "woke" one, pretty quick to label anyone homophobe, racist, bigoted etc...Now this.
And you know what, it is just like what Trump said when he said he would shoot someone in broad daylight and would still get his votes? Same with Justine...the progressive woke ones will still vote for him. The hypocrisy is breathtaking...
lol! It always makes me laugh when the woke ones are caught with their pants down.

Re: the whole blackface thing.... I think we have to accept that this was in the past. I don't necessarily think that someone doing it is racist. Racially insensitive at the time perhaps. But we're all allowed to evolve
 

Federberg

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https://news.sky.com/story/trans-cy...right-to-race-in-womens-competitions-11838131

Trans cyclist Rachel McKinnon defends her right to race in women's competitions

Trans athlete McKinnon will race to defend her sprint title at the Masters track cycling championships in Manchester on Saturday.

Martha Kelner
Sports correspondent @marthakelner

Friday 18 October 2019 10:54, UK
CanadaLGBT
The highest-profile transgender athlete in the world is competing on British soil for the first time this week and has defended her right to race despite acknowledging she may retain an advantage even after transitioning.
Canadian cyclist Rachel McKinnon has read the findings of a study which indicates testosterone suppression for transgender women has limited effect on reducing muscle strength, particularly in the thighs.
But McKinnon, who is favourite to defend her 35-44 sprint title at the Masters Track Cycling World Championships in Manchester on Saturday, told Sky News it is a human right for transgender women to partake in competitive sport.

"All my medical records say female," she said. "My doctor treats me as a female person, my racing licence says female, but people who oppose my existence still want to think of me as male.
"There's a stereotype that men are always stronger than women, so people think there is an unfair advantage. By preventing trans women from competing or requiring them to take medication, you're denying their human rights."
Findings of a study by Sweden's Karolinska Institute suggest the impact of hormone treatment on the leg strength of women who have transitioned from being male is almost negligible.
Asked if she accepted it is possible that transgender women retained a physical advantage over cis female competitors (the term used to describe someone who identifies as the same gender they were assigned at birth), McKinnon replied: "Is it possible? Yes it is possible. But there are elite track cyclists who are bigger than me.

"There is a range of body sizes and strength, you can be successful with massively different body shapes. To take a British example, look at Victoria Pendleton, an Olympic champion with teeny tiny legs.
"In many Olympic disciplines the gap in performance is bigger between first and eighth in a single sex event than it is between the first man and the first woman."

Asked if her logic meant that she would favour just one category for men and women, McKinnon said that the International Olympic Committee had no appetite for such a radical change.
Tokyo 2020 is likely to be the first Olympics where an openly transgender athlete competes. New Zealand weightlifter Laurel Hubbard, who used to lift when she was a man named Gavin, won two gold medals at the Pacific Games in April, while Brazilian volleyball player Tiffany Aubrey is also targeting the Games.
The IOC is under pressure to make their transgender rules more stringent to "protect" women's sport, but Sky News understands that the panel charged with revising their policy is divided.

It is one of the most politically charged and sensitive issues around - but asked whether trans inclusion was more important than retaining a category for women in sport, McKinnon replied: "I think what your asking me is, 'Is it more important that trans people are included, than it is to retain fairness in sport?'
"My point is that trans inclusion is fairness, it is unfair to exclude trans women. This is much bigger than sport, it's a proxy for all of trans inclusion in society. Talk of bathrooms has switched into sport by people who don't care about sport."

But some of McKinnon's competitors have a hugely different viewpoint. Victoria Hood is not competing in Manchester but has raced against McKinnon in the past. She said: "It is not complicated, the science is there and it says that it is unfair.
"The male body, which has been through male puberty, still retains its advantage, that doesn't go away.
"I have sympathy with them. They have a right to do sport but not a right to go into any category they want."
 

El Dude

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I would love to see John McEnroe identify as a transwoman and join the WTA, finally being able to face Serena in a pro match.
 
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calitennis127

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What gets me is the imposition on society to change our norms to accommodate them. It’s not the same for homosexuals. All they want is the freedom to be who they are. We are being asked to suspend reality and accept what we know has no basis in science

Where is there any scientific evidence whatsoever of a "gay gene"? The federal government has pumped billions of dollars into researching this question in order to find a "gay gene" and they have come up with as much evidence as the Mueller "team" did of Russian collusion. There is a genetic basis for male effeminacy, but there is no scientific evidence whatsoever for homosexuality being who anyone is.
 

britbox

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https://news.sky.com/story/trans-cy...right-to-race-in-womens-competitions-11838131

Trans cyclist Rachel McKinnon defends her right to race in women's competitions

Trans athlete McKinnon will race to defend her sprint title at the Masters track cycling championships in Manchester on Saturday.

Martha Kelner
Sports correspondent @marthakelner

Friday 18 October 2019 10:54, UK
CanadaLGBT
The highest-profile transgender athlete in the world is competing on British soil for the first time this week and has defended her right to race despite acknowledging she may retain an advantage even after transitioning.
Canadian cyclist Rachel McKinnon has read the findings of a study which indicates testosterone suppression for transgender women has limited effect on reducing muscle strength, particularly in the thighs.
But McKinnon, who is favourite to defend her 35-44 sprint title at the Masters Track Cycling World Championships in Manchester on Saturday, told Sky News it is a human right for transgender women to partake in competitive sport.

"All my medical records say female," she said. "My doctor treats me as a female person, my racing licence says female, but people who oppose my existence still want to think of me as male.
"There's a stereotype that men are always stronger than women, so people think there is an unfair advantage. By preventing trans women from competing or requiring them to take medication, you're denying their human rights."
Findings of a study by Sweden's Karolinska Institute suggest the impact of hormone treatment on the leg strength of women who have transitioned from being male is almost negligible.
Asked if she accepted it is possible that transgender women retained a physical advantage over cis female competitors (the term used to describe someone who identifies as the same gender they were assigned at birth), McKinnon replied: "Is it possible? Yes it is possible. But there are elite track cyclists who are bigger than me.

"There is a range of body sizes and strength, you can be successful with massively different body shapes. To take a British example, look at Victoria Pendleton, an Olympic champion with teeny tiny legs.
"In many Olympic disciplines the gap in performance is bigger between first and eighth in a single sex event than it is between the first man and the first woman."

Asked if her logic meant that she would favour just one category for men and women, McKinnon said that the International Olympic Committee had no appetite for such a radical change.
Tokyo 2020 is likely to be the first Olympics where an openly transgender athlete competes. New Zealand weightlifter Laurel Hubbard, who used to lift when she was a man named Gavin, won two gold medals at the Pacific Games in April, while Brazilian volleyball player Tiffany Aubrey is also targeting the Games.
The IOC is under pressure to make their transgender rules more stringent to "protect" women's sport, but Sky News understands that the panel charged with revising their policy is divided.

It is one of the most politically charged and sensitive issues around - but asked whether trans inclusion was more important than retaining a category for women in sport, McKinnon replied: "I think what your asking me is, 'Is it more important that trans people are included, than it is to retain fairness in sport?'
"My point is that trans inclusion is fairness, it is unfair to exclude trans women. This is much bigger than sport, it's a proxy for all of trans inclusion in society. Talk of bathrooms has switched into sport by people who don't care about sport."

But some of McKinnon's competitors have a hugely different viewpoint. Victoria Hood is not competing in Manchester but has raced against McKinnon in the past. She said: "It is not complicated, the science is there and it says that it is unfair.
"The male body, which has been through male puberty, still retains its advantage, that doesn't go away.
"I have sympathy with them. They have a right to do sport but not a right to go into any category they want."


Beginning of the end for women's sport. Might take a couple of decades, but...

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...st-accuses-woman-beat-poor-sportsmanship.html
 

tented

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Beginning of the end for women's sport. Might take a couple of decades, but...

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...st-accuses-woman-beat-poor-sportsmanship.html

It does seem unfair, given the physical advantage. (It’s not directly related, but I didn’t like Pistorius competing in the Olympics either.) Maybe transgender people can start their own sporting events, which would put them on an even level with each other. The opposite would be people who transition to male, and complain they’re at a disadvantage when racing with men.
 

Federberg

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It does seem unfair, given the physical advantage. (It’s not directly related, but I didn’t like Pistorius competing in the Olympics either.) Maybe transgender people can start their own sporting events, which would put them on an even level with each other. The opposite would be people who transition to male, and complain they’re at a disadvantage when racing with men.
I completely agree. They seem to miss the point of sports. It has to be intrinsically fair, otherwise people will lose interest. These folks are so focussed on their narrow, selfish point of view they forget what it's all about in the first place. Instead of realising they could be part of creating new groupings which I believe society would support, they seem to be focussed on redefining things that have existed since humanities beginnings. It's sad, but I'm convinced a backlash is inevitable. I so completely agree with Navratilova about this issue it's not even funny
 
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