Rolex Paris Masters, 2019, Bercy, France, ATP Masters 1000

[El Dude]

Hate is freedom.

Not according to the authoritarian, woke lefties in the US of A...oh wait, wrong forum?

 

[mrzz]

Not according to the authoritarian, woke lefties in the US of A...oh wait, wrong forum?

Wrong thread maybe.

 

[El Dude]

On a serious note, @mrzz , your post brings to light something that has been in the back of my mind for a couple years now re: Rafa. I have never really gotten the sense of him playing his absolute best tennis--the type of stuff we saw in 2008-13. It is like his recent success (2017-present), at least off clay, is more becuase of consistent very goodness, as you said, something akin to his B-game from his prime. That's good enough to beat almost everyone on tour, except for Roger and Novak on grass/hards.

I first had a sense of this way back in the 2017 AO final. Roger was channeling his prime, fleet-footed self, while Rafa was chugging along in a workmanlike manner; still very good, just not his true A-game (maybe B+?). While that remains my absolute favorite Roger win of all-time and I think he would have beaten almost anyone, I don't think he beat the very, very best version of Rafa -- and to be honest, I don't think we've really seen that version of Rafa since 2013, maybe 2014. He's still the best on clay, of course, but the gap between him and everyone else was so large that it could take some settling into a kind of demi-godhood.

I'd love to hear Rafa fans weigh in on this: How do you compare Rafa 2017-19 to 2008-13 Rafa?

 

[Moxie]

Having said that, I have zero doubt Nadal keeps his level for the next matches, while I am less certain about Djokovic. I think Djokovic has a higher chance of being upset by Dimitrov than Nadal by Shapovalov.

Djokovic seems over the flu, and ready for battle. I completely disagree about the SFs.

 

[GameSetAndMath]

Don't hate the messen... wait. No, you can hate whatever/whoever you want. Hate is freedom.

.

They say if you love someone, set them free.

What is the converse of it?

If you hate someone, lock them up?

 

[Moxie]

They say if you love someone, set them free.

What is the converse of it?

If you hate someone, lock them up?

Mrzz and I, I think I can say, are at a higher Zen of hating and loving each other. One mirrors the other, and both states exist. And he will hate that I said that. But no one gets locked up.

 

[mrzz]

But no one gets locked up.

Amen, sista.

 

[Moxie]

On a serious note, @mrzz , your post brings to light something that has been in the back of my mind for a couple years now re: Rafa. I have never really gotten the sense of him playing his absolute best tennis--the type of stuff we saw in 2008-13. It is like his recent success (2017-present), at least off clay, is more becuase of consistent very goodness, as you said, something akin to his B-game from his prime. That's good enough to beat almost everyone on tour, except for Roger and Novak on grass/hards.

I first had a sense of this way back in the 2017 AO final. Roger was channeling his prime, fleet-footed self, while Rafa was chugging along in a workmanlike manner; still very good, just not his true A-game (maybe B+?). While that remains my absolute favorite Roger win of all-time and I think he would have beaten almost anyone, I don't think he beat the very, very best version of Rafa -- and to be honest, I don't think we've really seen that version of Rafa since 2013, maybe 2014. He's still the best on clay, of course, but the gap between him and everyone else was so large that it could take some settling into a kind of demi-godhood.

I'd love to hear Rafa fans weigh in on this: How do you compare Rafa 2017-19 to 2008-13 Rafa?

I understand why you say that Rafa was rather more exciting ('08-'13,) I think you expose your prejudice in the part I bolded above. Roger always so "fleet of foot," and Rafa "chugging along," and "workman-like." But you're not giving credit to the changes that Rafa has made to his game, esp. in terms of serve, and shortening points. There are still lots of jaw-droppers from Rafa, but he seems to have eschewed that for the sake of shortening points, etc. Is he less-good? He just became the player to win the most Majors post-30. Is his game really "less good," or is that it's not as dynamic as in his early years? If it's more effective, for his later-years, is it less-good? Especially if the results are there?

 

[monfed]

Hope Shapo can save tennis.

Roast him Dennis!

 

[Moxie]

Hope Shapo can save tennis.

Roast him Dennis!

Sloppy-ass surfer dude Shapo is no savior of tennis. If he wins, he wins, but the very fact that you want him to proves that you don't care about tennis, you only care about someone beating Nadal. That's just pathetic bias. If it were Medvedev, or Khachanov, or even Monfils, you'd say the same. It's not really about saving tennis...it's about someone beating Rafa. Such a tired old narrative.

 

[rafanoy1992]

On a serious note, @mrzz , your post brings to light something that has been in the back of my mind for a couple years now re: Rafa. I have never really gotten the sense of him playing his absolute best tennis--the type of stuff we saw in 2008-13. It is like his recent success (2017-present), at least off clay, is more becuase of consistent very goodness, as you said, something akin to his B-game from his prime. That's good enough to beat almost everyone on tour, except for Roger and Novak on grass/hards.

I first had a sense of this way back in the 2017 AO final. Roger was channeling his prime, fleet-footed self, while Rafa was chugging along in a workmanlike manner; still very good, just not his true A-game (maybe B+?). While that remains my absolute favorite Roger win of all-time and I think he would have beaten almost anyone, I don't think he beat the very, very best version of Rafa -- and to be honest, I don't think we've really seen that version of Rafa since 2013, maybe 2014. He's still the best on clay, of course, but the gap between him and everyone else was so large that it could take some settling into a kind of demi-godhood.

I'd love to hear Rafa fans weigh in on this: How do you compare Rafa 2017-19 to 2008-13 Rafa?

Overall, his 2008-13 is the best Nadal we will ever see. On the other hand, his current version is the most efficient version of himself. At 33 years old and up, he needs to be like that.

One more thing: he doesn’t need to play A game to win unless his facing Djokovic or Federer. But you could that to both Djokovic and Federer. They are so above the other players on talent that they have a higher margin of error they don’t have to play their A game to win most of their matches. Let alone slams...

 

[herios]

Also, you have to think growing up in Canada, he played a lot of indoor tennis. Plus it suits his game.

I am surprised to see all kind of speculation regarding the improvement in Shapovalov's results when the reason is so clear and there is plenty of articles out there about it.
It is the coaching change!
Mikhail Youzhny joined the team this summer and the results started shortly thereafter.
Misha "organized and disciplined" his game. Not a rocket science at all.

 

[herios]

I think we got a nice bunch at WTF this year. The Big Three versus the next Gen, completely skipping a gen in between. I don't think (didn't fact check) this happened before at WTF. There would always be one guy from lost Gen.

How long you guys will keep including Thiem in the Next Gen?
Until he turns 35?

 

[tented]

 

[Moxie]

I am surprised to see all kind of speculation regarding the improvement in Shapovalov's results when the reason is so clear and there is plenty of articles out there about it.
It is the coaching change!
Mikhail Youzhny joined the team this summer and the results started shortly thereafter.
Misha "organized and disciplined" his game. Not a rocket science at all.

Sorry...I don't follow him as closely as you do.

 

[GameSetAndMath]

How long you guys will keep including Thiem in the Next Gen?
Until he turns 35?

Thiem is in the cusp between lost gen and next gen and so we can include him wherever we want based on convenience.

 

[Carol]

Hope Shapo can save tennis.

Roast him Dennis!

I'd tell you how tennis can be saved and then people like you could disappear........soon

 

[herios]

Sorry...I don't follow him as closely as you do.

No problem, he will get more attention going forward.

 

[monfed]

I would've picked baby Fed over the jaw but Bercy needs mercy from the bull so the insurance is required incase Dennis fails to take out mowgli.

 

[herios]

Thiem is in the cusp between lost gen and next gen and so we can include him wherever we want based on convenience.

Include him ehere you want, I include him where I think he should be.
He is 3 years older than Daniil and Matteo, 4y than Sasha and 5 than Stefanos. For me he does not belong to the same cluster as the other 4 mentioned.