Rogers Cup SF - Djokovic v. Nadal

[DarthFed]

RE: Roger's Cup SF - Djokovic v. Nadal

I think Rafa is going to have a much harder time with Andy than he used to. Much different player mentally and more importantly the forehand is a lot better. Those matches at Wimbledon I always felt the main difference was Murray's forehand was trash. Andy likely would have eaten Nole for breakfast again last night.

 

[Riotbeard]

RE: Roger's Cup SF - Djokovic v. Nadal

I think Rafa is going to have a much harder time with Andy than he used to. Much different player mentally and more importantly the forehand is a lot better. Those matches at Wimbledon I always felt the main difference was Murray's forehand was trash. Andy likely would have eaten Nole for breakfast again last night.

I don't know. The way rafa can eat up backhand slice takes away one of murray's great defensive weapons. If he can keep rafa back, you are probably right. It's a match I am curious to see.

 

[Kieran]

RE: Roger's Cup SF - Djokovic v. Nadal

Novak was only "untouchable" during his streak. His default settings are different to this, however, and he can be beaten...

Depends on which nole shows up... A 2013 monte carlo nole is tougher for nadal than Andy, but the other nole, well...

In 2011 there was basically only one Nole against Rafa. It was the bug-eyed, shirt-ripping, egg-fueled maniac who swung for the fences and painted the lines.

2013 MC was unusual because it was a match where Novak could hop on Rafa and expect to win. After this, Rafa went through the clay season and improved, and really Novak's chances decreased with every passing week.

There's a brittleness about Nole that isn't recent. It just happens against better players, that's all. But he always had that flakiness. I think it might be due to his having a personality that goes to extremes, either in slumps or in intensity. When he's on, he's blazing invisible winners off the lines. When he's off, he's off on another planet. But during his streak - and let's be honest here, 2011 was an anomaly in his career, not the norm - he was hitting everything, and beautifully.

Against Rafa, this rattled him. But Rafa ain't rattled any more, he's actually enjoying his matches with Novak, and I think this trend of relishing these battles with Novak started at Oz in 2012, or maybe the US Open 2011. He lost the fear and began to hunt for ways to win again, and found them.

It's a remarkable rivalry, by the way, and it can swing back again just as long as they both stay fit and keep their levels. What I love about Rafa is that he also has a career rivalry with Roger, which is also one of tennis legendary face-offs. One of these rivalries alone would be enough for most men...

 

[Riotbeard]

RE: Roger's Cup SF - Djokovic v. Nadal

Novak was only "untouchable" during his streak. His default settings are different to this, however, and he can be beaten...

Depends on which nole shows up... A 2013 monte carlo nole is tougher for nadal than Andy, but the other nole, well...

In 2011 there was basically only one Nole against Rafa. It was the bug-eyed, shirt-ripping, egg-fueled maniac who swung for the fences and painted the lines.

2013 MC was unusual because it was a match where Novak could hop on Rafa and expect to win. After this, Rafa went through the clay season and improved, and really Novak's chances decreased with every passing week.

There's a brittleness about Nole that isn't recent. It just happens against better players, that's all. But he always had that flakiness. I think it might be due to his having a personality that goes to extremes, either in slumps or in intensity. When he's on, he's blazing invisible winners off the lines. When he's off, he's off on another planet. But during his streak - and let's be honest here, 2011 was an anomaly in his career, not the norm - he was hitting everything, and beautifully.

Against Rafa, this rattled him. But Rafa ain't rattled any more, he's actually enjoying his matches with Novak, and I think this trend of relishing these battles with Novak started at Oz in 2012, or maybe the US Open 2011. He lost the fear and began to hunt for ways to win again, and found them.

It's a remarkable rivalry, by the way, and it can swing back again just as long as they both stay fit and keep their levels. What I love about Rafa is that he also has a career rivalry with Roger, which is also one of tennis legendary face-offs. One of these rivalries alone would be enough for most men...

Pretty good summation. I think outside of a few specific matches the Rafa Nole rivalry has produced better tennis. I still think novak is the favorite tied with murray at the USO, but he has some serious mental work to do. Better to get this loss at Montreal then Cincinnati (more time to recover). To be fair, after some very rough tournaments at monte carlo and Rome, Novak pulled it together at the F.O. While I wish he had beaten rafa there, it was for the most part a good loss (shame to me he couldn't get accross the finish line).

 

[Postpre]

RE: Roger's Cup SF - Djokovic v. Nadal

Excellent insight Kieren. I'm of the opinion that the Nadal we saw yesterday beats Murray on hards. FWIW, I don't think Murray has ever played (on hards) as well as Nadal's 2010 US Open. When playing his best, Rafa can grind on the baseline and win a higher percentage of long points against Murray (Murray is forced out of his comfort zone and is inevitably forced), whereas Novak still looks semi-comfortable even when Nadal is playing aggressive.

 

[calitennis127]

RE: Roger's Cup SF - Djokovic v. Nadal

Djokovic gifted away the first set with double faults, cheap errors, and failing to convert break points.

Good win for Nadal - a classic Nadal win. No double faults, very few errors, and some timely offense here and there when opportunities presented themselves.

Clearly it set your teeth on edge to say that. What about Nadal's more aggressive returning and court position? It was too aggressive from Rafa to be put down to "opportunism." Rafa has made a significant adjustment on HCs and vis-a-vis Nole's game.

First of all, Nadal never should have even been playing this match because he should have lost to Janowicz, who simply has better shots on a hardcourt. Nadal won, as always, because of his mental constancy, persistence, and sturdiness under pressure, mixed with those one or two opportunistic shots that mislead everyone into thinking that he wins because of insane shotmaking ability. Insane shotmaking ability would not explain hitting 13 winners to an opponent's 59 on your best surface over the course of a 3-hour match, that you won no less.

As for being more aggressive on the return, I have to give Nadal credit for that. That is a smart thing to do and it is a clever way of turning the tables on Djokovic, given how he has tortured Nadal the last couple years with deep returns. Nadal seemed motivated to give him a dose of his own medicine. However, I wouldn't overstate the impact of this. Yes, it swung probably 4-6 points in Nadal's favor, but the bigger issue with Djokovic's serving was missing too many first serves and then of course the double faults.

As someone who considers Federer and Nalbandian the two most talented players of this generation, I can only chuckle at the suggestion that what Nadal did yesterday was exceptionally "aggressive". If either Federer or Nalbandian have been fully fit and going for their shots as much as Nadal was yesterday, their winner count has been like the tickets popping out of a machine at an arcade - one after another after another. Last night's match, in a way, showed just how pathetic Nadal's offensive game can be compared to the rest of the top players in that a) he was completely fit and healthy and moving fast and b) clearly looking to be aggressive. Yet, midway through the second set, he still only had 5 winners. I simply find that pathetic. For someone to be as athletic and fit as Nadal, to be able to set up shots comfortably almost all of the time, and yet to be so impotent as a dominant shotmaker, I find it to be sad.

 

[Kieran]

RE: Roger's Cup SF - Djokovic v. Nadal

:snigger Nalbandian! Mentioned in comparison to Rafa or Roger.

Newsflash: Rafa is better than Nalbandian.

His forehand is acres away, fields away from Calbandian's backhand. It's a match breaker!

You're watching too many selective YouTube clips. Watch matches instead!

And whole matches - not just what happens down one end of the court....

 

[calitennis127]

RE: Roger's Cup SF - Djokovic v. Nadal

Haven't posted since a week before Wimbledon, but I figured this would be a good time to make a comeback, and it's fitting that I'd reply to my favorite sparring partner. I don't disagree with your overall assessment, and it was a classic Nadal win. I'd say he was more than "timely offensive" in the sense that overall, he was more aggressive than he normally is against Novak. But yes, it was his aggression in key moments (as was the case at the FO) that allowed him to win. That said, Nadal made 36 unforced errors. Only a few less than Novak. So he made more than a "few."

The key difference however, is that to me, Novak's unforced errors seemed more...unnecessary. In other words, they were just sloppier in general. Whereas Nadal's errors were a result of him being more aggressive than usual. The risk/reward was worth it.

I agree partially. I definitely agree that Djokovic's UFE's were more "unnecessary" and "sloppy". Both descriptions there are right on point. However, with Nadal I think he was forced into most of his errors. To pin them down on him going for shots a la Federer (with his "un-forced Federrors") is inaccurate.

I think the more important point here is a matter of psychoanalysis. I hadn't fully noticed this from the French Open semifinal, but yesterday it was very apparent to me. It seems quite clear that Nadal has adjusted his expectations against Djokovic, something which I have to give him significant credit for. He seems now to have, in a way, lowered his expectations for what he can do against Djokovic. What I mean by that is, he no longer approaches Djokovic trying to play defense and out-last him, only to be disappointed and frazzled by the fact that post-2010 Djokovic will not allow it.

Instead, he seems to expect that Djokovic will hit the winners he always has as well as win points in what is traditionally Nadal's style - great defense and stamina to draw an error. Now, Nadal seems to be much more focused on poking the Djokovic bear, just enough to make him hit a couple extra errors and fall into those patches of sloppiness. How does he do it? Aggressive backhand here, aggressive return there, combined with an overall intent to really bash the forehand. What this seems to do is make Djokovic think twice and hesitate - hence the errors, the weak slices, and the rather neutral forehands and backhands up the middle of the court that Djokovic appears to be hitting with little purpose at times than to just stay in the point. Even though Djokovic is winning a number of rallies and hits flatter, it seems that he is on his heels reacting to the unexpected now. In 2011 and in the AO 2012 final, nothing seemed to surprise him from Nadal. Now Nadal has made a couple adjustments and focused even more on timely serving and not making errors.

I think Nadal's cross court forehand having a bit more depth and ferocity in general made a difference, especially with Djokovic not playing as sharp as he normally does.

Agreed that Djokovic looked a little sluggish in these exchanges yesterday, a split-second slow and a tad unsure. That was disappointing.

Most importantly, Nadal has been serving better against Novak since the AO at 2012 (despite losing that match). On the ad court in particular, he alters his serving patterns specifically for Djokovic, goes to the body and to the forehand far more than the usual slider out wide.

Absolutely. Nadal has always understood better than anyone that his main performance-enhancing drug is his serving. His serve is basically tantamount to steroids for him. High first-serve percentage, no double faults, clever placement at key moments.

As far as Novak's serving goes, I actually think he's improved the damage he's able to do with his first serve this year (it was obvious at Wimbledon, but it went AWOL in the final), but this is coming at the expense of consistency (too many doubles, some occasional low serve %). He is producing more aces and unreturnable serves this year though.

Against Nadal, he is much better off going for percentage than aces though. Nadal has always had a high proclivity to being a lame (albeit quite consistent) returner. It is better to allow him to serve up his half-decent returns than to give away cheap points and put more pressure on yourself to get out of 0-30 or 15-40 holes.

Anyway, really good win for Nadal. Best he's looked on hards in a while in terms of good serving and aggressive court positioning. He's actually looked most impressive on hards this year, oddly enough.

And his movement seems to be as intact as ever, even at age 27 after a gazillion matches and with a history of knee problems.

 

[calitennis127]

RE: Roger's Cup SF - Djokovic v. Nadal

:snigger Nalbandian! Mentioned in comparison to Rafa or Roger.

Newsflash: Rafa is better than Nalbandian.

His forehand is acres away, fields away from Calbandian's backhand. It's a match breaker!

You're watching too many selective YouTube clips. Watch matches instead!

And whole matches - not just what happens down one end of the court....

Nalbandian's backhand is a far superior shot to Nadal's forehand. Nalbandian can do anything with it. Nadal has two unique aspects to his forehand, one more so than the other: 1) the inside-out (which is excellent), and 2) the CC forehand as he is coming in and hitting a short ball around the service box for a whipped short-angle winner. The latter is a great shot but it isn't as unique as #1.

And no Kieran, I see matches from the Nadal perspective, trust me. I have watched hundreds of his matches, and I used to root for Nadal all the time, until his deficiencies got on my nerves to the point that I couldn't root for him anymore, especially with the way that people were giving him undue praise.

 

[brokenshoelace]

RE: Roger's Cup SF - Djokovic v. Nadal

Nalbandian's backhand is a far superior shot to Nadal's forehand.

Without agreeing or disagreeing (though you know where I stand), can we please, move on past this debate already? It's been over four years. Some things just grow tiresome, including talks of Nalbandian's brilliant backhand.

 

[Kieran]

RE: Roger's Cup SF - Djokovic v. Nadal

Nadal's forehand is a killer! It's broken better men than Nalbandian. It's the Hammer of Thor, the whip hand, the bolt of lightning. I like Nalbandian's backhand, but it's not a match breaker - not at the levels Ralph works at...

 

[tented]

RE: Roger's Cup SF - Djokovic v. Nadal

And welcome back Broken. I always enjoy your insight into the game.

I'll second this.

Great to see you back, my friend. You've been missed by many.

 

[rafanoy1992]

RE: Roger's Cup SF - Djokovic v. Nadal

Novak was only "untouchable" during his streak. His default settings are different to this, however, and he can be beaten...

Depends on which nole shows up... A 2013 monte carlo nole is tougher for nadal than Andy, but the other nole, well...

In 2011 there was basically only one Nole against Rafa. It was the bug-eyed, shirt-ripping, egg-fueled maniac who swung for the fences and painted the lines.

2013 MC was unusual because it was a match where Novak could hop on Rafa and expect to win. After this, Rafa went through the clay season and improved, and really Novak's chances decreased with every passing week.

There's a brittleness about Nole that isn't recent. It just happens against better players, that's all. But he always had that flakiness. I think it might be due to his having a personality that goes to extremes, either in slumps or in intensity. When he's on, he's blazing invisible winners off the lines. When he's off, he's off on another planet. But during his streak - and let's be honest here, 2011 was an anomaly in his career, not the norm - he was hitting everything, and beautifully.

Against Rafa, this rattled him. But Rafa ain't rattled any more, he's actually enjoying his matches with Novak, and I think this trend of relishing these battles with Novak started at Oz in 2012, or maybe the US Open 2011. He lost the fear and began to hunt for ways to win again, and found them.

It's a remarkable rivalry, by the way, and it can swing back again just as long as they both stay fit and keep their levels. What I love about Rafa is that he also has a career rivalry with Roger, which is also one of tennis legendary face-offs. One of these rivalries alone would be enough for most men...

Spot on, Kieran. I would say Nadal started to relish his matches again against Nole in the third set of the 2011 US Open Final. Looking at the replay, he was hitting the ball very aggressively and he was enjoying the "suffering." Although he lost the fourth set 6-1, that third set gave him a new belief that he could hang toe to toe with Nole after all of those loses in 2011. That's why he was still optimistic after the Australian Open final because he believed he fought off till the end and he was getting closer. Since that epic final, he has one 5 of the last 6 matches including a huge one yesterday.

 

[brokenshoelace]

RE: Roger's Cup SF - Djokovic v. Nadal

I agree partially. I definitely agree that Djokovic's UFE's were more "unnecessary" and "sloppy". Both descriptions there are right on point. However, with Nadal I think he was forced into most of his errors. To pin them down on him going for shots a la Federer (with his "un-forced Federrors") is inaccurate.

I didn't pin them down on him going for his shots a la Federer, you did. I said most of them were the results of an overall more aggressive approach, which is different than trying to shorten the points or end them earlier (the way Federer does against Nadal). In other words, it's not that Nadal was simply going for winners and missing, but that his rally shots were generally more aggressive than he normally does. For instance, even something as simple as changing the directions more, going for deeper shots, and hit more to Djokovic's forehand will probably lead into more errors since it is a less safe approach than Nadal's usual bread and butter strategy of cross court forehands all day. He was generally playing a tad outside of his comfort zone (nothing major of course). That, coupled with the fact that he was coming up against a mover like Djokovic, whose shots just trouble Nadal in general (and force him to fight fire with fire or just drop the ball short or get killed for it), meant that he produced more errors.

 

[brokenshoelace]

RE: Roger's Cup SF - Djokovic v. Nadal

Stop it!. Pascal made 2 big errors in that final, both favoring Nadal at critical points in the match. He should have been suspended.

It was a semifinal.

And the ball was still in play when he touched the net!

Crikey, I didn't think Nole fans were swimming so deep in The Nile.... :nono

Sorry, it was a SF indeed.
He touched it, AFTER the double bounce, thus nope, the ball was not in play.
Also he was fooled by Rafa who pointed to a different sign left by the ball calling a ball out, while Nole's ball hit the line.
So, let's leave it at that, because even now it makes me mad when I think about it.

By the way, this is a true candidate for the worst post I've read here because it combines:

1) Blatant lying and fabrication of facts
2) wrong information
3) Hyperbole.
4) blind fanboyism.
5) denial.

Now, in fairness, 1) may not be correct, in the sense that you may not be lying, but genuinely think the ball had bounced twiced before Novak touched the net. If that's the case, then you're just... clueless about that particular incident.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uqbK93R6FNA

Watch the replay, and see how high Novak's put away bounced. You really think it had the time to bounce again before Novak hit the net? It's funny because Novak's argument with the umpire was: "the ball was outside the court" not that "it bounced twice." Maybe that should tell you something.

 

[ClayDeath]

Nadal's forehand is a killer! It's broken better men than Nalbandian. It's the Hammer of Thor, the whip hand, the bolt of lightning. I like Nalbandian's backhand, but it's not a match breaker - not at the levels Ralph works at...

even nole says that nadal`s forehand of death the most destructive stroke he has ever seen.


it is wicked and it is deadly when he is on and in full flight.



nole himself has a stroke of death also: his backhand is the best in history.

 

[SF Nadalite]

Maybe I just missed it, but no one seems to want to talk about Nole having a bad year. This loss shouldn't come as such a SHOCKER as it seems to be to many folk on here. This isn't his first loss this year....and you need more than 2 fingers to count the players who have beaten him.

And a lot of people are pulling the Serena answer: "It wasn't my opponent, I just beat myself...."

Yeah, right.

This doesn't mean Nole is done forever, won't beat Rafa, Andy, JDP the next time out. It just means he is not the super-nova that so many want to anoint him.

This was an amazing match - I didn't catch it live, but looking forward to a second viewing.

Definitely a good sign for Rafa and the US Open....

 

[the AntiPusher]

Nadal's forehand is a killer! It's broken better men than Nalbandian. It's the Hammer of Thor, the whip hand, the bolt of lightning. I like Nalbandian's backhand, but it's not a match breaker - not at the levels Ralph works at...

even nole says that nadal`s forehand of death the most destructive stroke he has ever seen.


it is wicked and it is deadly when he is on and in full flight.



nole himself has a stroke of death also: his backhand is the best in history.

his backhand is the besthis backhand is the best of Today.. I think saying it the best in history is being a bit caught in the moment, Agassi had to hit his backhand against a consisting net rushing Goran, Rafter, Becker, Edberg and Sampras. I would have like to see if Nole could have had the stones to hit his backhand against a huge quickly moving net rushers instead of waiting on his "strike zone" ball. Feel me.

 

[DarthFed]

Maybe I just missed it, but no one seems to want to talk about Nole having a bad year. This loss shouldn't come as such a SHOCKER as it seems to be to many folk on here. This isn't his first loss this year....and you need more than 2 fingers to count the players who have beaten him.

And a lot of people are pulling the Serena answer: "It wasn't my opponent, I just beat myself...."

Yeah, right.

This doesn't mean Nole is done forever, won't beat Rafa, Andy, JDP the next time out. It just means he is not the super-nova that so many want to anoint him.

This was an amazing match - I didn't catch it live, but looking forward to a second viewing.

Definitely a good sign for Rafa and the US Open....

I talked about it a lot during and after the match. I think Nole is quietly in a big slump and is playing his worst tennis since 2010. Not a good sign heading into the USO. If he has another loss in Cincy I wouldn't be high on his chances at USO.

 

[ClayDeath]

you cant volley what you cant see. the game has changed.

nole would demolish and totally destroy those players you just mentioned on all surfaces.


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