Rogers Cup 2018, Toronto, Canada, ATP Masters

GameSetAndMath

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There are two ways to win a point:
1) Hit a winner
2) Get your opponent to hit an error

Both work, both are equally valid, even if your personal preference is for one over the other. Rafa is better at 2. Not sure what is "pathetic" about that.

No, you are wrong. There are three ways to win a point.

1) Hit a winner (W)
2) Force your opponent to hit an error (FE)
3) Opponent hits an error voluntarily (UFE)

If a player wins due to lot of winners it is ideal. If a player wins due to lot of FE, but less winners, it is alright. If a player wins, due to lot of UFE by opponent it is pathetic.
 
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GameSetAndMath

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This isn't only a problem with Cilic. It is a feature of the second tier over the last decade; or rather, it is a quality of the Holy Trinity - that they can almost always find a way to win, even if they're not able to bring their A game.

You are missing the point. When a random second tier player wins a set over Big Four, it is typically because the B4 guy was not playing well or the B4 guy was playing decent, but the second tier guy got some lucky breaks and eked out a set. But, that was not the case with Cilic's win of first set against Rafa or Cilic's win of first set against Novak in the other match that I mentioned. It was a comprehensive master class win. That is why it is so disappointing when they cannot keep that level long enough to win the match.
 
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DarthFed

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I didn't watch the match. But you're missing my point, which is that Rafa has something to do with why the Cilics of the world collapse against him. It isn't just random, and you refuse to give Rafa credit.

Yes of course there is a reason they collapse, some of it is Nadal and some it is them. Tonight I'd say it was mostly Cilic. If you had seen the 2nd set in particular maybe you'd agree.
 

Front242

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Cilic's level at the beginning was the best I've seen him play. But he's an old folder. Some of you guys are pretty rude, though...and wrong and ignorant. And Roger's not even playing. Speaking of "pathetic..."



:D
 
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isabelle

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now Manacor's bull has a good chance to clinch the title
 

Chris Koziarz

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arrogant dulltards are another reason why this moonballing monkey needs to be banned from tennis forever and take his illiterate tards with him.
I'm a die-hard Fed fan like yourself. I hate moonballing, like yourself. But what I read next in your message (emphasised) makes me switch the sides immediately, and not only sympathise with the "monkey" but even become Nadal's fan on this occasion. Do know why? Try to think how it could be that Chris Koziarz, a Fed fan like yourself can all of the sudden become so silly. We can strike an honest conversation about my silliness.
But if you prefer to dismiss me as dulltard, that's fine, I learned to have a very thick skin, I take nothing personally so I'll just keep laughing at your insults.
 
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DarthFed

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I'm a die-hard Fed fan like yourself. I hate moonballing, like yourself. But what I read next in your message (emphasised) makes me switch the sides immediately, and not only sympathise with the "monkey" but even become Nadal's fan on this occasion. Do know why? Try to think how it could be that Chris Koziarz, a Fed fan like yourself can all of the sudden become so silly. We can strike an honest conversation about my silliness.
But if you prefer to dismiss me as dulltard, that's fine, I learned to have a very thick skin, I take nothing personally so I'll just keep laughing at your insults.

Two wrongs don't make a right. There are far too many fans of that grunting pig as is.
 

Moxie

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You are missing the point. When a random second tier player wins a set over Big Four, it is typically because the B4 guy was not playing well or the B4 guy was playing decent, but the second tier guy got some lucky breaks and eked out a set. But, that was not the case with Cilic's win of first set against Rafa or Cilic's win of first set against Novak in the other match that I mentioned. It was a comprehensive master class win. That is why it is so disappointing when they cannot keep that level long enough to win the match.
He's not missing the point. He's making one you don't wish to hear or acknowledge, which is that Nadal contributes to the implosion.

I completely agree that Cilic came in with a game plan and was executing it perfectly. I've never seen him play better, and the commies said so, as well. His level definitely dropped, nerves contributed, and there was absolutely choking involved. But, as Darth has said, that's why Cilic is who and where he is. He's a flawed player, not a great champion. I do still wonder why he even won one USO. Also, in your formula above, Rafa wasn't playing that decent; he was serving 20% below his season average the whole match, and hasn't been especially convincing the whole tournament. But in any case, you are right that Cilic was playing as if to blow Rafa off the court, but that didn't last long enough. El Dude is right that Rafa won in great part because he's a great champion and knows how to hang tough and win the big points. Anyway, it's disappointing for you that Cilic couldn't keep up his level, but not for me. :)
 

Moxie

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Two wrongs don't make a right. There are far too many fans of that grunting pig as is.
No around here. At the moment, it's only me. And I never speak that about your beloved Swiss goat rogerer.
 

monfed

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I'm a die-hard Fed fan like yourself. I hate moonballing, like yourself. But what I read next in your message (emphasised) makes me switch the sides immediately, and not only sympathise with the "monkey" but even become Nadal's fan on this occasion. Do know why? Try to think how it could be that Chris Koziarz, a Fed fan like yourself can all of the sudden become so silly. We can strike an honest conversation about my silliness.
But if you prefer to dismiss me as dulltard, that's fine, I learned to have a very thick skin, I take nothing personally so I'll just keep laughing at your insults.


#ABD (Anyone but dull). Please save this in your signature to show your support for tennis.
 

atttomole

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He's not missing the point. He's making one you don't wish to hear or acknowledge, which is that Nadal contributes to the implosion.

I completely agree that Cilic came in with a game plan and was executing it perfectly. I've never seen him play better, and the commies said so, as well. His level definitely dropped, nerves contributed, and there was absolutely choking involved. But, as Darth has said, that's why Cilic is who and where he is. He's a flawed player, not a great champion. I do still wonder why he even won one USO. Also, in your formula above, Rafa wasn't playing that decent; he was serving 20% below his season average the whole match, and hasn't been especially convincing the whole tournament. But in any case, you are right that Cilic was playing as if to blow Rafa off the court, but that didn't last long enough. El Dude is right that Rafa won in great part because he's a great champion and knows how to hang tough and win the big points. Anyway, it's disappointing for you that Cilic couldn't keep up his level, but not for me. :)
The commentators exaggerated a little, I think. Cilic played his best at the US Open in 2014. His serve was almost untouchable in that tournament and did not have the lapses he had last night. He got broken from 40-15 while serving last night by missing a sitter and then hitting wide again with Nadal nowhere to be seen. It’s not like Nadal did anything much different. He did not even put pressure on Cilic’s serve. It was more about Cilic playing badly in this match.
 

Moxie

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The commentators exaggerated a little, I think. Cilic played his best at the US Open in 2014. His serve was almost untouchable in that tournament and did not have the lapses he had last night. He got broken from 40-15 while serving last night by missing a sitter and then hitting wide again with Nadal nowhere to be seen. It’s not like Nadal did anything much different. He did not even put pressure on Cilic’s serve. It was more about Cilic playing badly in this match.
While I do agree that commentators often think what's in front of them is the best ever, I do think he was better last night even than at that USO, and this is why: it was his serve at that USO, yes, but it was his strategy and execution to counter Nadal, overall, last night. He wasn't even serving up aces until later in the match, as think his plan was a more complex approach to the match. He just got in trouble later and went for the big bombs, a little too late. Cilic did tough it out through all of the USO, but he wasn't hugely challenged, either, for the most part. He did blow Roger off the court in the SF, though, and, no, he didn't waiver in that one. But as we have seen, that's not really his usual, and as has been mentioned many times, Roger was off of a 5-setter v. Monfils in the round prior. But Cilic didn't even let him play, with the serve. Personally I don't think bombing someone off the court is better tennis than out-strategizing and maneuvering them.
 

DarthFed

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While I do agree that commentators often think what's in front of them is the best ever, I do think he was better last night even than at that USO, and this is why: it was his serve at that USO, yes, but it was his strategy and execution to counter Nadal, overall, last night. He wasn't even serving up aces until later in the match, as think his plan was a more complex approach to the match. He just got in trouble later and went for the big bombs, a little too late. Cilic did tough it out through all of the USO, but he wasn't hugely challenged, either, for the most part. He did blow Roger off the court in the SF, though, and, no, he didn't waiver in that one. But as we have seen, that's not really his usual, and as has been mentioned many times, Roger was off of a 5-setter v. Monfils in the round prior. But Cilic didn't even let him play, with the serve. Personally I don't think bombing someone off the court is better tennis than out-strategizing and maneuvering them.

What was this great strategy? He just played aggressive first-strike tennis. Taking mph off the serve was generally ineffective and a puzzling strategy if anything. It just came down to execution. Cilic is a tall guy with a very powerful and pretty reliable 2HBH. He is built to cause Nadal a lot of problems inherently. The forehand and the space between his ears is what lets him down and it's what led to the choking yesterday.
 

Moxie

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He was hitting into Nadal's FH, which is not usual, throwing off his familiar patterns. You think he had no strategy other than to "play great?" He was hitting a lot really clean winners, but with a purpose. Nadal made some adjustments, but Cilic cooled off, and tightened up.
 

atttomole

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While I do agree that commentators often think what's in front of them is the best ever, I do think he was better last night even than at that USO, and this is why: it was his serve at that USO, yes, but it was his strategy and execution to counter Nadal, overall, last night. He wasn't even serving up aces until later in the match, as think his plan was a more complex approach to the match. He just got in trouble later and went for the big bombs, a little too late. Cilic did tough it out through all of the USO, but he wasn't hugely challenged, either, for the most part. He did blow Roger off the court in the SF, though, and, no, he didn't waiver in that one. But as we have seen, that's not really his usual, and as has been mentioned many times, Roger was off of a 5-setter v. Monfils in the round prior. But Cilic didn't even let him play, with the serve. Personally I don't think bombing someone off the court is better tennis than out-strategizing and maneuvering them.
I didn’t mean to say that he won at the US Open because of his serve alone. He was hitting the bell well from both wings. His forehand was scary too. At times he seemed like he was playing serve and volley because his serve was that good, and he was putting away the returns with ease.
 
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DarthFed

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He was hitting into Nadal's FH, which is not usual, throwing off his familiar patterns. You think he had no strategy other than to "play great?" He was hitting a lot really clean winners, but with a purpose. Nadal made some adjustments, but Cilic cooled off, and tightened up.

Hitting aggressively to Nadal's forehand is not a new strategy and of course he is going to hit a lot of clean winners. He is a big hitter with a lot of talent. It's actually a bad matchup physically for Nadal as Cilic hits huge, usually serves big. and moves well for his size. Nadal at AO and in this match was really relegated to being a ball machine just waiting for Cilic to donate and eventually collapse. It was enough this match and likely would've been at AO too if he didn't get hurt. That says a lot about Cilic.
 

Horsa

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I'm a die-hard Fed fan like yourself. I hate moonballing, like yourself. But what I read next in your message (emphasised) makes me switch the sides immediately, and not only sympathise with the "monkey" but even become Nadal's fan on this occasion. Do know why? Try to think how it could be that Chris Koziarz, a Fed fan like yourself can all of the sudden become so silly. We can strike an honest conversation about my silliness.
But if you prefer to dismiss me as dulltard, that's fine, I learned to have a very thick skin, I take nothing personally so I'll just keep laughing at your insults.
I'd take some advice that Broken Shoelace gave everyone ages ago if Monfed is annoying you & put him on ignore. It's bliss. You don't have to see what Monfed has to say. (Talking about Broken Shoelace, he hasn't been on for a while. I hope he's o.k.)
 

DarthFed

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The Young Greek hero has a lot of movement on his serve and I think it's throwing them off on the second serve. Anderson and Sascha are going after the second serve returns but are missing a lot of them. Gilbert said they should be going down the middle with it instead of aiming for the corners. I'd say doing that or even just taking a little off the return while hitting to the corners. Stefanos' second serve has no pace, you figure these guys should be able to handle it.
 

DarthFed

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Good rally from Anderson in the TB. Hate to say it but his improvement is obvious. He's not totally worthless from the baseline now. I'm impressed Tsitsipas is making it competitive, he looked gassed by the end yesterday, hell he looked gassed by the start of the 3rd.
 

DarthFed

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I do like this kid even if he wasn't Greek. Very nice all around game and seems to have a good attitude. Seems to be a stark contrast to a certain Greek Aussie.