Novak Djokovic is the fittest tennis player on the planet

[Moxie]

I think you've got this one wrong Moxie. Where is the evidence that it's self-destructive in Novak's case? Just because you swear and grump doesn't mean it's self-destructive. Mac is the obvious case in point.

I'm really not trying to spoil anyone's party. I'm just stating my own observation. Quick examples: Rome final 2012 and RG SF 2013: a disputed call threw Nole off, in both matches, and he hung onto it too long. He got broken shortly after, both times. Those matches were against Nadal on clay, so I like to think who was the better player, but do I kid myself that he didn't help his own cause by hanging onto a frustration longer than he should have? And the RG SF last year: Novak was cruising v. Gulbis, a known head-case, for 2 sets. Ernie went up an early break in the 3rd and Djokovic got very down on himself. Even the commentators said: "Could some remind Novak that he's up two sets?" OK, later we learned that Novak was feeling ill. But, still...I didn't invent the notion of the "Nolecoaster." He solves a lot of his "walkabouts" will his phenomenal tennis, as I already said. It's a minor point, at this stage, but I felt I had to defend it, since you said I was wrong, federberg. It's a minor point. Obviously, Djokovic is doing fine enough.

You make some good points Mox.

The one disastrous moment I remember for Nole was the RG final and the call that came when he touched the net on a sitter.

He never let that one go and I think most of it was because he was so disappointed in himself for being so careless. It cost him the match for sure.

Thanks for getting my point, to some extent, at least. I don't think that missed smash was all that cost Novak that match, but I think it contributed, and his inability to let go of the moment. THAT is actually my point. This is why I don't agree with those who say he forgets the bad stuff two points later, or whatever. No, he doesn't always.

 

[Kieran]

Sometimes a player blows their top in order to signal to everybody, "look, see! I'm losing because of the jerk in the chair! I'd a won if it wasn't for all the distractions!" I remember Becker in 1991 against Stich, he made Muzza look like a boy scout with all his self-recriminations, his loud muttered ruminations in German, his swearing and gesticulating, and the purpose behind it all was to show, "it's not him who's beating me, this one's all about me, the injustice, the stupidity of it all."

Muzza kinda falls into this category. When things are going swimmingly, and he shanks, he shrugs it off. But when he anxious and in danger, he rears up on himself. It's a sign of a weaker mentality than he needs to succeed at the very highest levels, and in fact, when he was succeeding at the highest levels, Lendl had eradicated all this stuff from his psyche. Now, he has permission again to beat himself up in public, berate his players box, and lose in fancy-dan style, going down in verbal flames. Happened in Oz, will happen again.

Nole has also had some of this, but his brittleness is of a different sort. Sometimes Nole just doesn't like to be the bad guy. He's often lost matches where he couldn't block out the occasion and went meekly, including the Wimbledon final in 2013. He just looked awkward out there, and the killer instinct was absent. When he has his complete focus, he's dangerous, but he doesn't have the same shark in the water stuff that Rafa, Pete or Roger have, where nothing else exists except the scent of blood...

 

[Federberg]

I knew someone would be literal, if I didn't spell it out. Obviously the point is that, while Murray yawps at his box, he doesn't have any history of scaring ball kids. However, it is true that people say they don't like him for his grumping and yelling and swearing. But when Novak grumps and yells and swears, no worries. They are both guilty of some self-destructive attitudes on court. I guess if you win in the end, all is forgiven.

I think you've got this one wrong Moxie. Where is the evidence that it's self-destructive in Novak's case? Just because you swear and grump doesn't mean it's self-destructive. Mac is the obvious case in point.

I'm really not trying to spoil anyone's party. I'm just stating my own observation. Quick examples: Rome final 2012 and RG SF 2013: a disputed call threw Nole off, in both matches, and he hung onto it too long. He got broken shortly after, both times. Those matches were against Nadal on clay, so I like to think who was the better player, but do I kid myself that he didn't help his own cause by hanging onto a frustration longer than he should have? And the RG SF last year: Novak was cruising v. Gulbis, a known head-case, for 2 sets. Ernie went up an early break in the 3rd and Djokovic got very down on himself. Even the commentators said: "Could some remind Novak that he's up two sets?" OK, later we learned that Novak was feeling ill. But, still...I didn't invent the notion of the "Nolecoaster." He solves a lot of his "walkabouts" will his phenomenal tennis, as I already said. It's a minor point, at this stage, but I felt I had to defend it, since you said I was wrong, federberg. Obviously, Djokovic is doing just fine.

Still not sure it's enough to push that argument too strongly. Maybe it's just me. The evidence is that Nole often berates himself or his team and comes back stronger. I could list examples of when Roger has had meltdowns and lost the match afterwards, but I don't believe any of us would suggest that this is typical of Federer. These are human beings and sometimes they let themselves down. Only Murray systematically harms himself by his on court histrionics.

To my mind, Novaks greatest vulnerabilities are when the crowd is clearly against him... and wind. Just my opinion..

 

[Denis]

Crowd is def a factor, but not always when it's against him. I'm sure he doesn't care when playing Davis cup. I think it's more of an issue when he perceives it as unfair. RG 2011 semi for instance: Novak was on the hottest streak in history and the French crowd were treating him as a nobody.

He also can overcome them; semi us open 2011, but yeah can sometimes be an issue.

I would also add heat. Not always a problem but it still can be like last years semi and final at RG.

 

[Federberg]

^I think the crowd factor comes into play when he's playing against the top 4. He still has a bit of a chip on his shoulder that he's not as loved as Fedal in particular. As for his Wimbledon final loss to Murray I think he found the support for Andy stifling

 

[tossip]

^I think the crowd factor comes into play when he's playing against the top 4. He still has a bit of a chip on his shoulder that he's not as loved as Fedal in particular. As for his Wimbledon final loss to Murray I think he found the support for Andy stifling

Joko used to struggle with fitness and then all of sudden he is iron man.I think there is a spectre of suspicion against him...iits an understanding that tennis fans dont trust him or like him.

 

[Federberg]

^I think the crowd factor comes into play when he's playing against the top 4. He still has a bit of a chip on his shoulder that he's not as loved as Fedal in particular. As for his Wimbledon final loss to Murray I think he found the support for Andy stifling

Joko used to struggle with fitness and then all of sudden he is iron man.I think there is a spectre of suspicion against him...iits an understanding that tennis fans dont trust him or like him.

It took me a while to warm to him I must admit! When I realised it was less about him and more about the behaviour of his parents things changed. I think his grace in defeat, and general sportsmanship on court are praise-worthy. That's not to say he's a perfect human being, but who wants to watch drones play?

 

[bobvance]

Andy actually trains in the Miami heat so it's surprising that Novak could out-fitness him down there. Andy should consider dropping bread from his diet and sleeping in an egg.

 

[Kieran]

Exactly. Did Andy cramp in that final in Miami from exhaustion - or did he brain-cramp? I would find it quite damning of a modern aspirational player that they're physically so unable to compete by the third set, that they fail to win a single game.

It wasn't physical... :nono

 

[Luxilon Borg]

Sometimes a player blows their top in order to signal to everybody, "look, see! I'm losing because of the jerk in the chair! I'd a won if it wasn't for all the distractions!" I remember Becker in 1991 against Stich, he made Muzza look like a boy scout with all his self-recriminations, his loud muttered ruminations in German, his swearing and gesticulating, and the purpose behind it all was to show, "it's not him who's beating me, this one's all about me, the injustice, the stupidity of it all."

Muzza kinda falls into this category. When things are going swimmingly, and he shanks, he shrugs it off. But when he anxious and in danger, he rears up on himself. It's a sign of a weaker mentality than he needs to succeed at the very highest levels, and in fact, when he was succeeding at the highest levels, Lendl had eradicated all this stuff from his psyche. Now, he has permission again to beat himself up in public, berate his players box, and lose in fancy-dan style, going down in verbal flames. Happened in Oz, will happen again.

Nole has also had some of this, but his brittleness is of a different sort. Sometimes Nole just doesn't like to be the bad guy. He's often lost matches where he couldn't block out the occasion and went meekly, including the Wimbledon final in 2013. He just looked awkward out there, and the killer instinct was absent. When he has his complete focus, he's dangerous, but he doesn't have the same shark in the water stuff that Rafa, Pete or Roger have, where nothing else exists except the scent of blood...

Really good and insightful post.

I will also add that sometimes a player will have a blow up to say to everyone.."Look, I really care..I want to WIN....".

And that is because NO top player ever wants to be accused of being apathetic.

 

[Luxilon Borg]

Exactly. Did Andy cramp in that final in Miami from exhaustion - or did he brain-cramp? I would find it quite damning of a modern aspirational player that they're physically so unable to compete by the third set, that they fail to win a single game.

It wasn't physical... :nono

No, it probably was not...but mental cramping did cause physical cramping...

Why are we surprised after the total and utter collapse down under?

 

[Luxilon Borg]

Andy actually trains in the Miami heat so it's surprising that Novak could out-fitness him down there. Andy should consider dropping bread from his diet and sleeping in an egg.

:lolz: now that is good!

 

[Luxilon Borg]

^I think the crowd factor comes into play when he's playing against the top 4. He still has a bit of a chip on his shoulder that he's not as loved as Fedal in particular. As for his Wimbledon final loss to Murray I think he found the support for Andy stifling

Joko used to struggle with fitness and then all of sudden he is iron man.I think there is a spectre of suspicion against him...iits an understanding that tennis fans dont trust him or like him.

It took me a while to warm to him I must admit! When I realised it was less about him and more about the behaviour of his parents things changed. I think his grace in defeat, and general sportsmanship on court are praise-worthy. That's not to say he's a perfect human being, but who wants to watch drones play?

Same here...almost identical to my history with nole.

 

[Luxilon Borg]

^I think the crowd factor comes into play when he's playing against the top 4. He still has a bit of a chip on his shoulder that he's not as loved as Fedal in particular. As for his Wimbledon final loss to Murray I think he found the support for Andy stifling

Joko used to struggle with fitness and then all of sudden he is iron man.I think there is a spectre of suspicion against him...iits an understanding that tennis fans dont trust him or like him.

Tsk tsk.:exclamation:

 

[Great Hands]

Sometimes a player blows their top in order to signal to everybody, "look, see! I'm losing because of the jerk in the chair! I'd a won if it wasn't for all the distractions!" I remember Becker in 1991 against Stich, he made Muzza look like a boy scout with all his self-recriminations, his loud muttered ruminations in German, his swearing and gesticulating, and the purpose behind it all was to show, "it's not him who's beating me, this one's all about me, the injustice, the stupidity of it all."

Muzza kinda falls into this category. When things are going swimmingly, and he shanks, he shrugs it off.

no he doesn't. he often reprimands himself when things are going well too, when he's in complete copntro.

he also does all the things that people say causes him to lose when he wins. take the aosf this year against berdych. murray chintered all through that match, was quite negative, but played grat and won.

i've been watching murray for 10 years, and i'm still amazed that people get things so wrong. it's like they have selective memory or something.


But when he anxious and in danger, he rears up on himself. It's a sign of a weaker mentality than he needs to succeed at the very highest levels, and in fact, when he was succeeding at the highest levels, Lendl had eradicated all this stuff from his psyche.

no, he didn't. when murray won the uso final, he was shouting and grumbling and so on.he did it in the olympioc fianl he won too.

Now, he has permission again to beat himself up in public, berate his players box, and lose in fancy-dan style, going down in verbal flames. Happened in Oz, will happen again.

Nole has also had some of this, but his brittleness is of a different sort. Sometimes Nole just doesn't like to be the bad guy. He's often lost matches where he couldn't block out the occasion and went meekly, including the Wimbledon final in 2013. He just looked awkward out there, and the killer instinct was absent. When he has his complete focus, he's dangerous, but he doesn't have the same shark in the water stuff that Rafa, Pete or Roger have, where nothing else exists except the scent of blood...

 

[Great Hands]

Exactly. Did Andy cramp in that final in Miami from exhaustion - or did he brain-cramp? I would find it quite damning of a modern aspirational player that they're physically so unable to compete by the third set, that they fail to win a single game.

It wasn't physical... :nono

No, it probably was not...but mental cramping did cause physical cramping...

Why are we surprised after the total and utter collapse down under?

the 'collapse down under', as you put it, was exactly the same in the 2013 ao final, when murray was with lendl.

 

[Great Hands]

Exactly. Did Andy cramp in that final in Miami from exhaustion - or did he brain-cramp? I would find it quite damning of a modern aspirational player that they're physically so unable to compete by the third set, that they fail to win a single game.

It wasn't physical... :nono

So you must also be very damning of Nishikori, who is certainly a 'modern aspirational player', who was also bagelled in the 3rd set by Djokovic, at the WTFs.

This is the Nishikori who won 2 back to back 5 setters against Raonic and Wawrinka at the USO.

And Wawrinka, who has gone 5 sets with Novak at the AO and USO, was also bagelled by Novak in London in a best of 3 match.

Sometimes playing Novak takes it out of you. It's mental and physical, but it's not surprising.

 

[Great Hands]

Exactly. Did Andy cramp in that final in Miami from exhaustion - or did he brain-cramp? I would find it quite damning of a modern aspirational player that they're physically so unable to compete by the third set, that they fail to win a single game.

It wasn't physical... :nono

So you must also be very damning of Nishikori, who is certainly a 'modern aspirational player', who was also bagelled in the 3rd set by Djokovic, at the WTFs.

This is the Nishikori who won 2 back to back 5 setters against Raonic and Wawrinka at the USO.

And Wawrinka, who has gone 5 sets with Novak at the AO and USO, was also bagelled by Novak in London in a best of 3 match.

Sometimes playing Novak takes it out of you - a combination of being outplayed, the pressure of playing an all-time great, Novak's superior athleticism and incredible stamina. It's mental and physical, but it's not surprising.

 

[Kieran]

I've got no problem with players being bagelled - it happens to everyone - but if a player is so badly conditioned that he's too tired to compete in the third?

Nah.

Murray's problem isn't physical, and it isn't match-up or anything like that. He goes away. He didn't used to but now he's got a mental issue that's making him go blank. He can sort it - but he needs a proper coach...

 

[Great Hands]

I've got no problem with players being bagelled - it happens to everyone - but if a player is so badly conditioned that he's too tired to compete in the third?

Nah.

Murray's problem isn't physical, and it isn't match-up or anything like that. He goes away. He didn't used to but now he's got a mental issue that's making him go blank. He can sort it - but he needs a proper coach...

I really hope you're wrong, because if you're right, I don't think Andy can sort it. There aren't other Lendls out there. Other top ex-players don't like to commit the time and travel, and there's no guarantee they'd mesh well with Andy anyway. If what you're saying is true, Andy's ability to even challenge, let alone occasionally beat, the big 3 is over forever...