Nitto ATP Finals 2023, Turin, Italy

[Kieran]

We'll see! I just sit here laughing at the "hatahs" out there giving Novak the business while the commentators heap unprecedented praise on him!

Who’s giving out? He’s getting praise. Carlos though is showing his inexperience. He’s not playing the big points as well as he used to. He’s not playing as freely and with as much joy as he used to. He’s feeling pressure, but it’s good for him to learn from this, and hopefully he’ll start next season fresh and focused..

 

[rafanoy1992]

There's integrity in setting yourself up for success too, ala dethrone the King when the opportunity presents itself

Thank you! If Djokovic beats Sinner tomorrow, so be it!

It's interesting too that most everyone wanted Sinner to lose in purpose instead of Rune to win the match.

 

[Kieran]

Thank you! If Djokovic beats Sinner tomorrow, so be it!

It's interesting too that most everyone wanted Sinner to lose in purpose instead of Rune to win the match.

I remember years ago, you know Connors was an arch-cheat, I know people liked him but he crossed the line many times. But one time in this same tournament Lendl tanked a match (against Connors) to avoid Borg in the semi, it was 1980, and Connors was incensed. It’s one thing to ease off in a set you’re 4-0 down and you want to keep your powder dry for the next set, but it goes against habit and principle to deliberately lose a match…

 

[kskate2]

Thank you! If Djokovic beats Sinner tomorrow, so be it!

It's interesting too that most everyone wanted Sinner to lose in purpose instead of Rune to win the match.

I had no issue w/ Holger winning the match and he did give it the ole college try. But the point that gets lost in all this is Jannik won his first two matches. Because of excellent play he controlled his own destiny. Everyone else was playing to earn a spot in the SF.

 

[Moxie]

I had no issue w/ Holger winning the match and he did give it the ole college try. But the point that gets lost in all this is Jannik won his first two matches. Because of excellent play he controlled his own destiny. Everyone else was playing to earn a spot in the SF.

Are you saying that Sinner should have lost to Rune to keep from having to play Novak again?

 

[rafanoy1992]

I remember years ago, you know Connors was an arch-cheat, I know people liked him but he crossed the line many times. But one time in this same tournament Lendl tanked a match (against Connors) to avoid Borg in the semi, it was 1980, and Connors was incensed. It’s one thing to ease off in a set you’re 4-0 down and you want to keep your powder dry for the next set, but it goes against habit and principle to deliberately lose a match…

I would like to add that Rune didn't help himself because he played the first four games of the match like he didn't wanted to be there!

So, it is not like Rune really wanted to win the match at least in the 1st set!

 

[Front242]

Are you saying that Sinner should have lost to Rune to keep from having to play Novak again?

I think he should personally as the odds of him beating Djokovic again are extremely low given he only just beat him for the first time in their last match.

 

[rafanoy1992]

I think he should personally as the odds of him beating Djokovic again are extremely low given he only just beat him for the first time in their last match.

And Rune should have obliged at least in the 1st set! Rune played that 1st set like he didn’t want to be there or he didn’t want to advance to the SF.

 

[MargaretMcAleer]

Remember your boy chose integrity. Remember the saying if you come for the King you had better kill him or loose the match to Holger so the King is sent out of Italy yesterday.

Please dont make me laugh, carry on LOL!

 

[Fiero425]

I remember years ago, you know Connors was an arch-cheat, I know people liked him but he crossed the line many times. But one time in this same tournament Lendl tanked a match (against Connors) to avoid Borg in the semi, it was 1980, and Connors was incensed. It’s one thing to ease off in a set you’re 4-0 down and you want to keep your powder dry for the next set, but it goes against habit and principle to deliberately lose a match…

Everyone was gaming the tournament at that Masters YEC of 1980! Even Borg and Vilas played hooky & defaulted their respective matches complaining about illnesses! They had already qualified w/ 2 wins! W/ Borg's 2-1 record, he had to play his pigeon, Jimmy Connors who went undefeated in his group thanks to Ivan's tank job! The crowd wasn't happy and displayed signs admonishing Borg & Vilas, "we were here friday! Where were you?" Lendl got Gene Mayer in the SF! Borg d Lendl in the final!

 

[MargaretMcAleer]

I think we are all forgetting this was Charly's first ATP Finals and on a fast hard court that all the players through out the season have not played on.
Making a SF in his first attempt is not bad in my book, he will learn from this experience.
May I remind everyone, he is a good learner? look what he did at Wimbledon this year, after winning Queens and then winning Wimbledon.
Have a good off season young man you deserve it!

 

[Moxie]

I think he should personally as the odds of him beating Djokovic again are extremely low given he only just beat him for the first time in their last match.

As @rafanoy1992 points out, he got handed that first set. It wasn't that easy to lose it if it looks like a tank-job. Now, when his back was bothering him into the 3rd he could have pulled back at let Rune have it, but what does that signal for the SF? He was playing a guy he'd never beaten in front of his home crowd...I just don't think he was going to lose on purpose. Rune could have obliged by beating him outright, but didn't have the "mustard." (A little joke for @the AntiPusher.) I have a hard time blaming Sinner for refusing to fold. I can blame Rune for not playing better.

Sure the odds are against Sinner beating Novak again this week. And, as @nehmeth pointed out above, Novak looked the best he has all week today, by far. Must have gotten over that cold. But Sinner is playing great tennis this week, he's undefeated, is good indoors, and has the home crowd. I think his winning ways may serve him well.

 

[MargaretMcAleer]

As @rafanoy1992 points out, he got handed that first set. It wasn't that easy to lose it if it looks like a tank-job. Now, when his back was bothering him into the 3rd he could have pulled back at let Rune have it, but what does that signal for the SF? He was playing a guy he'd never beaten in front of his home crowd...I just don't think he was going to lose on purpose. Rune could have obliged by beating him outright, but didn't have the "mustard." (A little joke for @the AntiPusher.) I have a hard time blaming Sinner for refusing to fold. I can blame Rune for not playing better.

Sure the odds are against Sinner beating Novak again this week. And, as @nehmeth pointed out above, Novak looked the best he has all week today, by far. Must have gotten over that cold. But Sinner is playing great tennis this week, he's undefeated, is good indoors, and has the home crowd. I think his winning ways may serve him well.

Jannik's bhand was the best I have seen it, it was on Fire against Meddy in that final set, I read that Cahill has been getting Sinner to watch videos of Agassi's bhand returns, it certainly paid off in the final set.

 

[Moxie]

I think we are all forgetting this was Charly's first ATP Finals and on a fast hard court that all the players through out the season have not played on.
Making a SF in his first attempt is not bad in my book, he will learn from this experience.
May I remind everyone, he is a good learner? look what he did at Wimbledon this year, after winning Queens and then winning Wimbledon.
Have a good off season young man you deserve it!

Exactly...look at the improvement just this week! Whereas, Sinner is very good on indoor HCs (.737 win pct) and is unbeaten this week. I don't think it'll be the same for Novak tomorrow, as it was today. The crowd will be wildly partisan, but Novak can use that to his advantage, as well, most of the time.

 

[Kieran]

Everyone was gaming the tournament at that Masters YEC of 1980! Even Borg and Vilas played hooky & defaulted their respective matches complaining about illnesses! They had already qualified w/ 2 wins! W/ Borg's 2-1 record, he had to play his pigeon, Jimmy Connors who went undefeated in his group thanks to Ivan's tank job! The crowd wasn't happy and displayed signs admonishing Borg & Vilas, "we were here friday! Where were you?" Lendl got Gene Mayer in the SF! Borg d Lendl in the final!

I’m looking at it here: Borg tanked the match against Mayer? It was love and three…

 

[MargaretMcAleer]

Exactly...look at the improvement just this week! Whereas, Sinner is very good on indoor HCs (.737 win pct) and is unbeaten this week. I don't think it'll be the same for Novak tomorrow, as it was today. The crowd will be wildly partisan, but Novak can use that to his advantage, as well, most of the time.

Well Cahill is a great tactical coach, he had a good game plan when Sinner won their match in the round robin,, not many players can take the racquet out of Novak hands? Sinner executed the game plan well.

 

[rafanoy1992]

As @rafanoy1992 points out, he got handed that first set. It wasn't that easy to lose it if it looks like a tank-job. Now, when his back was bothering him into the 3rd he could have pulled back at let Rune have it, but what does that signal for the SF? He was playing a guy he'd never beaten in front of his home crowd...I just don't think he was going to lose on purpose. Rune could have obliged by beating him outright, but didn't have the "mustard." (A little joke for @the AntiPusher.) I have a hard time blaming Sinner for refusing to fold. I can blame Rune for not playing better.

Sure the odds are against Sinner beating Novak again this week. And, as @nehmeth pointed out above, Novak looked the best he has all week today, by far. Must have gotten over that cold. But Sinner is playing great tennis this week, he's undefeated, is good indoors, and has the home crowd. I think his winning ways may serve him well.

Thank You, Moxie!

I see people “blaming” Sinner for not losing against Rune, but Rune did not wake up for the match until the 2nd set!

The best analogy I can think of this:

A player is injured during the match or towards the end of the match and does not want to retire from the match. It is up to other player to actually win the match itself. Unfortunately, the non-injured player did not deliver the final blow so the injured player wins the match.

Mind you guys also, Rune had the opportunity to win the Green Group by beating Sinner. However, for some odd reason, he played terribly in the 1st Set and waited in the 2nd set to do some adjustments.

 

[kskate2]

Thank You, Moxie!

I see people “blaming” Sinner for not losing against Rune, but Rune did not wake up for the match until the 2nd set!

The best analogy I can think of this:

A player is injured during the match or towards the end of the match and does not want to retire from the match. It is up to other player to actually win the match itself. Unfortunately, the non-injured player did not deliver the final blow so the injured player wins the match.

Mind you guys also, Rune had the opportunity to win the Green Group by beating Sinner. However, for some odd reason, he played terribly in the 1st Set and waited in the 2nd set to do some adjustments.

Maybe he was waiting for Jannik to tank and when that didn't happen he actually realized he would need to play to advance and it was too late.

 

[kskate2]

Are you saying that Sinner should have lost to Rune to keep from having to play Novak again?

I'm saying what I said earlier. There's integrity in setting yourself up for success. If it had been me, and I had the opportunity to write my own ticket and win this tourney, I would do whatever is legal and to my benefit by any means necessary.

 

[kskate2]

As @rafanoy1992 points out, he got handed that first set. It wasn't that easy to lose it if it looks like a tank-job. Now, when his back was bothering him into the 3rd he could have pulled back at let Rune have it, but what does that signal for the SF? He was playing a guy he'd never beaten in front of his home crowd...I just don't think he was going to lose on purpose. Rune could have obliged by beating him outright, but didn't have the "mustard." (A little joke for @the AntiPusher.) I have a hard time blaming Sinner for refusing to fold. I can blame Rune for not playing better.

Sure the odds are against Sinner beating Novak again this week. And, as @nehmeth pointed out above, Novak looked the best he has all week today, by far. Must have gotten over that cold. But Sinner is playing great tennis this week, he's undefeated, is good indoors, and has the home crowd. I think his winning ways may serve him well.

You're making the case for me. All the more reason to be sensitive to the body and not risk further injury or soreness with extended play in a meaningless match. He was already in the SF. Why not save all his strength for that?