Nitto ATP Finals 2022, Turin, Italy

[the AntiPusher]

Did Rafa ever play against Christian Rudd?

 

[MargaretMcAleer]

They should move the WTF to Monte Carlo clay court the next few years

Even Jim Courier said they should change the surfaces at the end of year finals, which surprised me

 

[MargaretMcAleer]

Did Rafa ever play against Christian Rudd?

That is Casper's father Christian isnt it? I dont know, though I know Casper grew up with Rafa being his idol...you would have to goggle to see if Rafa played Christian Ruud

 

[the AntiPusher]

Question, @El Dude looking at Nadal's performance today. Do you think it was at the top tier ATP level or do you think his best days are behind him based on the past 4 months of lackluster performance?

Rafa has made about 3 to 4 backhanded overhead shots which is by far the most difficult shot to execute in the game of tennis. Tell me if I'm WRONG but you have to be at your highest level to make that many in less than a week. My point is there's no slippage in tennis skill level..Yes Ralphy has lost a half a step or so but his tennis IQ has only 2 rivals and one of them just retired.

 

[Sundaymorningguy]

Felix went out to Medvedev in the QF of the AO this year.

 

[the AntiPusher]

Felix went out to Medvedev in the QF of the AO this year.

Felix blew several mps if my memory serves me correctly

 

[MargaretMcAleer]

Felix blew several mps if my memory serves me correctly

Well I was right he made the QFs this year at the AO, not SFs

 

[El Dude]

Question, @El Dude looking at Nadal's performance today. Do you think it was at the top tier ATP level or do you think his best days are behind him based on the past 4 months of lackluster performance?

Rafa has made about 3 to 4 backhanded overhead shots which is by far the most difficult shot to execute in the game of tennis. Tell me if I'm WRONG but you have to be at your highest level to make that many in less than a week. My point is there's no slippage in tennis skill level..Yes Ralphy has lost a half a step or so but his tennis IQ has only 2 rivals and one of them just retired.

I didn't watch the match, or any of Rafa's matches this week, so can't comment on specifics.

I will say that skills (that is, shot-making) are only part of what causes decline, and really, not the first thing to go. In fact, I think in many cases, movement, health and mentality start slipping before and/or more than skills. Think of Roger's last few years: still capable of Roger-esque shots, but the overall package was falling apart.

Meaning, any player can reach their "highest level" deep into their decline...it just becomes less frequent. They have to work harder for it, and that inevitably takes its toll.

 

[the AntiPusher]

I didn't watch the match, or any of Rafa's matches this week, so can't comment on specifics.

I will say that skills (that is, shot-making) are only part of what causes decline, and really, not the first thing to go. In fact, I think in many cases, movement, health and mentality start slipping before and/or more than skills. Think of Roger's last few years: still capable of Roger-esque shots, but the overall package was falling apart.

Meaning, any player can reach their "highest level" deep into their decline...it just becomes less frequent. They have to work harder for it, and that inevitably takes its toll.

interesting response.. thanks @El Dude

Do you think it was at the top tier ATP level or do you think his best days are behind him based on the past 4 months of lackluster performance?

 

[Moxie]

I didn't watch the match, or any of Rafa's matches this week, so can't comment on specifics.

I will say that skills (that is, shot-making) are only part of what causes decline, and really, not the first thing to go. In fact, I think in many cases, movement, health and mentality start slipping before and/or more than skills. Think of Roger's last few years: still capable of Roger-esque shots, but the overall package was falling apart.

Meaning, any player can reach their "highest level" deep into their decline...it just becomes less frequent. They have to work harder for it, and that inevitably takes its toll.

I agree with this. Age will mess with speed, timing, health and confidence, but the brilliance can still show up, too, particular as we're talking about ultra-elites. "There's life in the old boy yet," etc.

I could have made a separate post for this, but I am lazy. I haven't watched a lot of this week's matches. Courier said, even yesterday, that Rafa would have been better off if he had started with Ruud. As we saw today, Ruud doesn't match up well against Rafa. To have started, theoretically, with a win, would likely have served him better, and this is where the confidence bit comes in. This is his worst surface and his worst big tournament. I'm not saying he'd had finished any better, but that might have played out a bit better for him.

As to Fritz winning today, I'm happy for him! I think that means he gets Novak. Well, good luck!

 

[El Dude]

interesting response.. thanks @El Dude

Do you think it was at the top tier ATP level or do you think his best days are behind him based on the past 4 months of lackluster performance?

I think his best days are behind him, regardless. I mean, he's 36 and coming off his worst half-year since 2016. Actually, I consulted one of my charts and this is the first time since 2003 that he's gone four straight tournaments without reaching a QF.

That said, I expect him to be in fighting form by January, and should be competitive in the early hardcourt season, and the player to beat on clay, though I think he'll be challenged more than in the past. He's got some more titles in him, maybe a Slam or two. But I suspect no more than that. The gap between Djokodal and the peaking Next Gen is a lot closer now than it was a few years ago, and now the Millenials are uprising, so there's more uncertainty and room for upsets. By this time next year, I suspect the regime change will be in full effect.

 

[Jelenafan]

Oh the sweets and treats in Italy are beyond compare! We’re fortunate to live near an Italian owned caff in Wicklow and the cages there are almost too much. I make a fool of myself drooling in the window before I go in.

Sounds like you had a marvellous time - did you get tickets for many days?

Tennis finished for me after 4 days. I’m out of Turin and took the train to Salerno. The YE was an add on once I realized it was feasible It’s been a heavy year for me, to say the least, besides the moms had 4 close friends die this year, one my age this last week unexpectedly, so no more regrets and I’m so glad I came up.

I’ve heard the comments as to Rafa’s “demise” and it’s a weird mixed feeling I have about his performance this week. Concerns? Yes, but not the same way it seems with others.

First of all, no excuses. If you fall flat and don’t play to your highest level when you need to per your opponent,that’s on you. Again that’s why as talented as he is , Felix hasn’t won me quite over yet.

The physical and mental level has to be both there on the highest levels in synch. It clearly was not there this week with Rafa.
One of my favorite all time quotes on tennis came from the great British player Virginia Wade, to paraphrase her, “ People who think tennis is just an athletic endeavor is like saying that playing King Lear is just about memorizing the lines.”

With Rafa, IMO his fans have understandably worried so much about his physical state for so long ,that they take his mental state almost for granted, yet if you listen to him closely in in his interviews there is a huge mental toll he pays every time he comes back from yet another injury. So unlike others, I do feel his mental sharpness has lost a step as much as his physical state has inevitably. Chris Evert, again I’ve used her quote before, once said that as you age the mental aspect gets harder and harder. As Fiero could testify ,there was no one more mentally focused than the ‘ice maiden”. Without the mental you are just memorizing lines, look at Barty, for all her gifts and variety once her mental edge was gone that was it.

So this week Rafa was just not sharp mentally, did not stay focused on key points in both his early matches. Fritz and Felix played well within their games, at times brilliantly, but Rafa had his moments. I think it was Antipusher that talked about Rafa’s Overhead backhand smashes? OMG there was one against Taylor Fritz , maybe 4-4 or 5-5 in the first set on Fritz first serve which was simply spectacular. So at this level Rafa did not compete well mentally I feel, was not up for the big points. Physically I thought he was OK, sluggish but again, no shocker. Early in the Felix match , FAA was vulnerable and Rafa did not capitalize. Yes, Rafa was not matchtough due to injuries, had outside distractions, etc but that’s part and parcel of every tennis players life.

His physical decline is there, but so is his mental decline. But Rafa can get up for these streaks of brilliance so I’m hopeful he’s got some good tennis left. Sorry but two Majors and ranked 2 or 3 in the world ain’t shabby, ( in contrast Federer fans would be slashing their wrists because he didn’t win it “all”) However Rafa can retire just as easily because the mental edge is gone, even if he feels physically OK. So he could wake up one day and say, “ don’t feel like practicing anymore and improving” and that will be it.

 

[the AntiPusher]

I think his best days are behind him, regardless. I mean, he's 36 and coming off his worst half-year since 2016. Actually, I consulted one of my charts and this is the first time since 2003 that he's gone four straight tournaments without reaching a QF.

That said, I expect him to be in fighting form by January, and should be competitive in the early hardcourt season, and the player to beat on clay, though I think he'll be challenged more than in the past. He's got some more titles in him, maybe a Slam or two. But I suspect no more than that. The gap between Djokodal and the peaking Next Gen is a lot closer now than it was a few years ago, and now the Millenials are uprising, so there's more uncertainty and room for upsets. By this time next year, I suspect the regime change will be in full effect.

Acourse, if Rafa , Novak without Roger's presence the new reign would begin to win the 250s, 500s and 1000s masters series tournament but in retrospect nothing has really changed at the GS tournament level. Let's look at the calendar numbers when both Rafa and Novak are able to participate in a GS over the past 2 years. Their title winning percentage is still at the insane level as it was the previous 4 years. I will not pursue the abdominal strain muscle injury in regards to Rafa's performance decline over the past 5 months yet any tennis purists who is unbiased will acknowledge it was the factor in lack of tournament match play which is essential at the advanced tennis age of over 35. I think you may have done your analytics mini blog a huge disservice by not properly giving Nadal's brilliance at AO and RG (2022) its well to do credentials. Good posters such as Tented, Margaret and Moxie @MargaretMcAleer @Moxie @tented who are more loyal than @Kieran or myself during the grandslam fortnight was deprived of their special time for lack of a better phrase "their time in the sun" with their champion yet you dedicated a mini blog to Alcatraz and Novak grandslam victories. Just my opinion and two cents worth. I won't mention it again.

Thanks AP

 

[the AntiPusher]

He got what he wanted — matches against top players — it’s just too bad he started finding his rhythm after being eliminated. There are positives to be found here nevertheless.

Trent I agree, Rafa needs matches ..Moxie said it may have been better if Rafa could have played Rudd first which has a lot of merit.

 

[Kieran]

Tennis finished for me after 4 days. I’m out of Turin and took the train to Salerno. The YE was an add on once I realized it was feasible It’s been a heavy year for me, to say the least, besides the moms had 4 close friends die this year, one my age this last week unexpectedly, so no more regrets and I’m so glad I came up.

I’ve heard the comments as to Rafa’s “demise” and it’s a weird mixed feeling I have about his performance this week. Concerns? Yes, but not the same way it seems with others.

First of all, no excuses. If you fall flat and don’t play to your highest level when you need to per your opponent,that’s on you. Again that’s why as talented as he is , Felix hasn’t won me quite over yet.

The physical and mental level has to be both there on the highest levels in synch. It clearly was not there this week with Rafa.
One of my favorite all time quotes on tennis came from the great British player Virginia Wade, to paraphrase her, “ People who think tennis is just an athletic endeavor is like saying that playing King Lear is just about memorizing the lines.”

With Rafa, IMO his fans have understandably worried so much about his physical state for so long ,that they take his mental state almost for granted, yet if you listen to him closely in in his interviews there is a huge mental toll he pays every time he comes back from yet another injury. So unlike others, I do feel his mental sharpness has lost a step as much as his physical state has inevitably. Chris Evert, again I’ve used her quote before, once said that as you age the mental aspect gets harder and harder. As Fiero could testify ,there was no one more mentally focused than the ‘ice maiden”. Without the mental you are just memorizing lines, look at Barty, for all her gifts and variety once her mental edge was gone that was it.

So this week Rafa was just not sharp mentally, did not stay focused on key points in both his early matches. Fritz and Felix played well within their games, at times brilliantly, but Rafa had his moments. I think it was Antipusher that talked about Rafa’s Overhead backhand smashes? OMG there was one against Taylor Fritz , maybe 4-4 or 5-5 in the first set on Fritz first serve which was simply spectacular. So at this level Rafa did not compete well mentally I feel, was not up for the big points. Physically I thought he was OK, sluggish but again, no shocker. Early in the Felix match , FAA was vulnerable and Rafa did not capitalize. Yes, Rafa was not matchtough due to injuries, had outside distractions, etc but that’s part and parcel of every tennis players life.

His physical decline is there, but so is his mental decline. But Rafa can get up for these streaks of brilliance so I’m hopeful he’s got some good tennis left. Sorry but two Majors and ranked 2 or 3 in the world ain’t shabby, ( in contrast Federer fans would be slashing their wrists because he didn’t win it “all”) However Rafa can retire just as easily because the mental edge is gone, even if he feels physically OK. So he could wake up one day and say, “ don’t feel like practicing anymore and improving” and that will be it.

Totally agree. He’s got a lot of miles on the clock and he’s reaching the end, but he’s been remarkable. You did the right thing with your holiday and for the right reasons. Commiserations on your losses, it’s been a terrible year, just glad to see that you found some respite by going to Italy. My favourite country! You seem to have covered a lot of great ground over there! Enjoy yourself in Salerno!

 

[Sundaymorningguy]

I could see Rafa bowing out in 2024 I mean that year the Olympics will be in Paris why not try for a second gold if still playing well. I think Rafa is certainly one major injury away from a decline that will permanently have an effect on his tennis.

 

[Sundaymorningguy]

Ruud needs to find some grit and nasty in his game. The workmanlike nature of his game is only going to take him so far, so he better find some extra firepower whether that comes from improving his serve or backhand or both. He seems content to rally rather than end a point as quickly as possible.

Having said that, there is only so much you can do when Nadal shows up looking like someone there for the taking and chooses your match to show up looking like a serve god.

I hope Ruud shows up for his semi and wins it. I would love to see him win a big title. He certainly has shown his game can get him to the semis and finals of big tournaments, but he isn’t digging in harder to get the big W. Out of everyone left I would prefer he win it.

 

[the AntiPusher]

I could see Rafa bowing out in 2024 I mean that year the Olympics will be in Paris why not try for a second gold if still playing well. I think Rafa is certainly one major injury away from a decline that will permanently have an effect on his tennis.

If he keeps winning RG and stays near the top contention at the other GS , he may hang around til 40 because he still loves the game but I doubt it..2024 most likely will be it.

 

[don_fabio]

Weird end of the 2nd set between Novak and Daniil. After one long rally Novak was struggling heavy to catch his breath, it looked like he was getting dizzy and his face colour changed. I think he is gassed out a bit, let's see if he can hang on in 3rd set.

 

[kskate2]

Weird end of the 2nd set between Novak and Daniil. After one long rally Novak was struggling heavy to catch his breath, it looked like he was getting dizzy and his face colour changed. I think he is gassed out a bit, let's see if he can hang on in 3rd set.

Definitely gassed. Let's see if this new Meddy can take advantage of a low-energy Djoke. He has issues closing lately so he may look this gift horse in the mouth. Stay tuned for further updates...