Nadalites – Rafa Nadal Talk

[The Strokes]

The guy who posted it is pretty well respected on these boards and plays at a higher level than probably around 95% of other posters. If we can't debate tactics or strategy without falling back on the "that guy is a pro, he knows best" then what is the point of discussing it anyway?

I see this everywhere from fans, about Nadal standing too far back to recieve.
Of course fans can discuss tactics, but somehow the idea that they know better than Nadal how to play, it's different. And I do find it absurd. Would say this about certain kinds of advice given to Fed, Djok any of them.

I'd like to see evidence of more effective returning from a closer position, i.e. in some youtube clips, but highlights won't do it because they just isolate a few outstanding points. I've looked for this, can't find it.
I've been watching Nadal very closely for ten years, and I've never seen him improve returns by moving in to return. Period. He tends to hit long when he moves in because it's not his familliar range.
When he feels his FH well, he can return from very far back, deep and effectively. He has a very big backswing and needs the extra time that a further back return position gives him.
The BH is another story, he takes this early--at least now he does.
Move in, you cut off some angles and open up others.

But as far as playing closer to the baseline, yes, yes, yes, and this has been a big change in the past year, graphics keep coming up to show he's not playing from as far back as he was in the bad years 2015/2016.

How could anyone here know something Rafa or Toni and Moya don't about Rafa's game? Think about that for awhile. I say that respectfully.
If something keeps being done a certain way it's for a reason--Rafa is simply not OK returning closer in, cannot adjust his FH accordingly, and any attempt to do would have a disasterous and chaotic effect on his return.

Again, check out atp leaderboard stats on return games. It's Rafa's best stat category, he's 3rd in that department.

Kyr and Mueller posed special difficulties because they are both monster servers.

 

[The Strokes]

In my recent sabbatical or for the ones with a limited vocabulary absence..what part of cyberspace or other forum spawn this derelict of a Rafa fan..There should be a vetting process such as spending an infinite amount of pages to listening to Fronty Rafa hate or DarthFed's theories that this year's surface at SW19 was playing slower than BN era (before Nadal). Whereas Kieran when he is needed to restore some sanity to a tennis board.

There's no need for me to even try to dignify that post with a rebuttal.

But you did.
And your sentence is a syntactical disaster.

"Dignify post with a rebuttal" weak cliche, demonstrating lack of linguistic resources.

 

[The Strokes]

The guy who posted it is pretty well respected on these boards and plays at a higher level than probably around 95% of other posters. If we can't debate tactics or strategy without falling back on the "that guy is a pro, he knows best" then what is the point of discussing it anyway?

Pretty well respected on these boards.
Sorry, that doesn't impress me. Truly.

 

[Nekro]

The admin was the publisher's wife.

Good to know, i missed that cause that's when i took a few years of break from forums, got tot busy with uni.... That's why i missed a few years of t4u and everywhere else too...

Still, banning Cracky, sampras_fan and the rest was idiotic....

but they always sucked at running a forum...

Pretty well respected on these boards.
Sorry, that doesn't impress me. Truly.

Personally i always thought AntiPusher was a noob, now that i'm reading more of him he seems like a nice fellow but i would never have thought he played tennis..... Even his name is like a troll name from mtf, lol

 

[Haelfix]

Returning way back has advantages and disadvantages . It works well for Rafa bc he has an ackward backhand that needs some prep time, so that he can step into the shot. Also his forehand is not a compact shot either and requires some footwork to get into position. I would suspect it would be very difficult from a mechanical point of view for Rafa to be advanced.

A guy who is perfect to have a forward return position is Kyrgios bc he generates great power off very compact backswings and requires minimal movement.

Stylistically Being way back works for Rafa historically bc he's so fast and he's not uncomfortable playing defense for a few shots and he's one of the games best at the transition game. It thus puts a lot of pressure on the server to hit lines and has led some good servers to be flustered, even though Rafas returns perse aren't the best.

 

[the AntiPusher]

But you did.
And your sentence is a syntactical disaster.

"Dignify post with a rebuttal" weak cliche, demonstrating lack of linguistic resources.

Good to know, i missed that cause that's when i took a few years of break from forums, got tot busy with uni.... That's why i missed a few years of t4u and everywhere else too...

Still, banning Cracky, sampras_fan and the rest was idiotic....

but they always sucked at running a forum...


Personally i always thought AntiPusher was a noob, now that i'm reading more of him he seems like a nice fellow but i would never have thought he played tennis..... Even his name is like a troll name from mtf, lol

neiko..most of my posts are from my playing experience and my conversations with the teaching pros who has worked with a lot of the ATP and WTA current and former pros. I just share my views and opinions which may not always be well received. However, I know for 100 % certainty that Rafa's approach to his return game is flawed, not too many fans will admit that their champion is flawed.I think I am really the AntiTroll if that name is better to describe my views. The poster who has created this thread is new and there's no need for me to try to debate him but if his posts continue to trend trollism, he will loose any type of legitimacy of being a knowledgeable poster. Kieran would absolutely not acknowledge him as a worthy Nadal fan. IMO

 

[the AntiPusher]

I see this everywhere from fans, about Nadal standing too far back to recieve.
Of course fans can discuss tactics, but somehow the idea that they know better than Nadal how to play, it's different. And I do find it absurd. Would say this about certain kinds of advice given to Fed, Djok any of them.

I'd like to see evidence of more effective returning from a closer position, i.e. in some youtube clips, but highlights won't do it because they just isolate a few outstanding points. I've looked for this, can't find it.
I've been watching Nadal very closely for ten years, and I've never seen him improve returns by moving in to return. Period. He tends to hit long when he moves in because it's not his familliar range.
When he feels his FH well, he can return from very far back, deep and effectively. He has a very big backswing and needs the extra time that a further back return position gives him.
The BH is another story, he takes this early--at least now he does.
Move in, you cut off some angles and open up others.

But as far as playing closer to the baseline, yes, yes, yes, and this has been a big change in the past year, graphics keep coming up to show he's not playing from as far back as he was in the bad years 2015/2016.

How could anyone here know something Rafa or Toni and Moya don't about Rafa's game? Think about that for awhile. I say that respectfully.
If something keeps being done a certain way it's for a reason--Rafa is simply not OK returning closer in, cannot adjust his FH accordingly, and any attempt to do would have a disasterous and chaotic effect on his return.

Again, check out atp leaderboard stats on return games. It's Rafa's best stat category, he's 3rd in that department.

Kyr and Mueller posed special difficulties because they are both monster servers.

Mueller is that much of a monster server..Rafa makes him look better than he is. Cilic broke him down and was able to get into his service games. The only Stat that matters for Nadal these days are winning titles especially grand slam titles. I would like to see the comparison of his return of serve on the grass and hardcourts vs the clay.

 

[Nekro]

neiko..most of my posts are from my playing experience and my conversations with the teaching pros who has worked with a lot of the ATP and WTA current and former pros. I just share my views and opinions which may not always be well received. However, I know for 100 % certainty that Rafa's approach to his return game is flawed, not too many fans will admit that their champion is flawed.I think I am really the AntiTroll if that name is better to describe my views. The poster who has created this thread is new and there's no need for me to try to debate him but if his posts continue to trend trollism, he will loose any type of legitimacy of being a knowledgeable poster. Kieran would absolutely not acknowledge him as a worthy Nadal fan. IMO

???? He's been changing his approach to returning so many times during his career, but his grip and technique put limits on what he can do with his returns, so i wouldn't call him flawed, at least in the sense Bouchard is flawed in so many ways for example, he's been adjusting his return all the time with more or less success, i agree more with what Haelfix said, and his FH return is not bad either because he's flawed, it's his grip and his technique that make aggressive returning harder for him, but he's doing ok despite that.... good read:

"His return used to be one of Nadal's weaknesses earlier in his career because he needs more time than the other big four to react to big serves. It got improved over time. Rafa was criticized for standing way too far from the baseline when returning. I remember people suggesting him to move a step closer when returning. Initially he tried to do that, stepping in closer on the returns, but not much success against big servers still. Right around 2012 if I remember correctly he did something crazy. He stepped back even farther than usual and his returns got a lot better. He was able to get to the balls and got back deep consistently from way far back returning positions. I think 2012-13 were like his best return years and it became one of his strengths. But I think his last year's injury and the experimentation with a new racquet set back his return game by a couple years. And his lack of confidence also doesn't help with getting those serves back deep."

So i don't think Strokes is biased or anything like that, Nadal is doing the best he can, what heresy did she say?......


Don't get me started on Kieran, he and nehmeth were 2 noobs when they came to tennis.com, we taught them the basics......

WTF is a "worthy Rafa fan" anyway.... just lol. i'm glad there's a new Rafa fan who's chatty and likes spamming away, also she makes damn good points from time to time....

Also, i know this is not a poetry board but she's much more readable than you, sorry....

 

[The Strokes]

Good to know, i missed that cause that's when i took a few years of break from forums, got tot busy with uni.... That's why i missed a few years of t4u and everywhere else too...

Still, banning Cracky, sampras_fan and the rest was idiotic....

but they always sucked at running a forum...


Personally i always thought AntiPusher was a noob, now that i'm reading more of him he seems like a nice fellow but i would never have thought he played tennis..... Even his name is like a troll name from mtf, lol

Good to hear Nekro.
I found him hostile and not astute, and he lacked style and originality when he tried to insult me; yet wrote in a high tone, implying he considered himself some kind of clever wordsmith. It was kind of ridiculous.
I lost further faith in this place when BB wrote to me that he was well respected on these boards. Really?

Note to all reading: YOu can argue with what someone is saying without insulting them. I really aim to do it like that. But when someone insults me, I will come back at them. You wouldn't want me harbouring suppressed anger would you? It's unhealthy! I thought Aunty Pusher's posts to others were also hostile, I saw another hostile remark he made just shortly before he came at me. I put posters like this on ignore.

Moxie had said to me in another thread (or maybe earlier in this one) that this was a pretty civilized forum, and you were all a kind of "unit," having come here (or created "here") sort of as a group quite awhile ago. Well I could see the unit thing--you have the kind of low level bickering that characterizes famillies or people who having been hanging out awhile. But not so sure about how civilized--less antagonistic than TT or MTF but that doesn't take you all the way to civilized.

 

[mrzz]

Your reply is nonsense.
No fan is in a position to tell Rafa how to return.
He is actually 3rd in return stat on the atp leaderboard this year.
KYr has a very tough serve to return and rafa couldn't get a read on it, but this general advice telling Rafa how to return is just garbage.
Most of it coming from people who have probably never even held a racquet in their lives, or if they have, would be wearing pro serves in their mouths.
At least that would stem the flow of stupidity that comes out of them.

I often disagree with AP tennis wise, but check the bolded parts on your first response and you will see that you were not exactly nice to begin with. Yes, AP's previous post started with "foolishness", but hell, I am always amazed how quickly things escalate here.

BTW I agree with the "No fan is in a position to tell Rafa how to return" part. But on the other hand all fans here are in a position to debate it...
Any poster who engages on tennis discussions technically and strategically wise will be respected around here, at least from my part (if he can do that without offending others directly) agreeing with him or not.

 

[Nekro]

Moxie had said to me in another thread (or maybe earlier in this one) that this was a pretty civilized forum, and you were all a kind of "unit," having come here (or created "here") sort of as a group quite awhile ago. Well I could see the unit thing--you have the kind of low level bickering that characterizes famillies or people who having been hanging out awhile. But not so sure about how civilized--less antagonistic than TT or MTF but that doesn't take you all the way to civilized.

Those are the tennisfrontier posters....

Those people are just stinking up the WTA threads nonstop, ok, Sharapova took meldonium but GSM and tossip are overdoing it, shitposting all day about her........ I don't like Steroina for example but I won't waste my time making 3000 shitposts/day about her lol....

not only that but they're throwing shit at the new champs too like Muguruza and Ostapenko without any reason whatsoever.....

Muguruza is a colourful person with a big game and great mentality, why call her "garbage"? etc etc

and that's going on nonstop, ofc it's always the tennisfrontier posters.....

look at the positives, Kate and Front are cool, GSM has some ok jokes from time to time and tossip's USA posts are hilarious if you look at them in a special way .....

And the biggest positive: The admins are damn nice here.....

and even the trolls are nicer than the mtf ones for example....

so all in all it's a pimp place once you got used to everybody....

 

[the AntiPusher]

???? He's been changing his approach to returning so many times during his career, but his grip and technique put limits on what he can do with his returns, so i wouldn't call him flawed, at least in the sense Bouchard is flawed in so many ways for example, he's been adjusting his return all the time with more or less success, i agree more with what Haelfix said, and his FH return is not bad either because he's flawed, it's his grip and his technique that make aggressive returning harder for him, but he's doing ok despite that.... good read:

"His return used to be one of Nadal's weaknesses earlier in his career because he needs more time than the other big four to react to big serves. It got improved over time. Rafa was criticized for standing way too far from the baseline when returning. I remember people suggesting him to move a step closer when returning. Initially he tried to do that, stepping in closer on the returns, but not much success against big servers still. Right around 2012 if I remember correctly he did something crazy. He stepped back even farther than usual and his returns got a lot better. He was able to get to the balls and got back deep consistently from way far back returning positions. I think 2012-13 were like his best return years and it became one of his strengths. But I think his last year's injury and the experimentation with a new racquet set back his return game by a couple years. And his lack of confidence also doesn't help with getting those serves back deep."

So i don't think Strokes is biased or anything like that, Nadal is doing the best he can, what heresy did she say?......


Don't get me started on Kieran, he and nehmeth were 2 noobs when they came to tennis.com, we taught them the basics......

WTF is a "worthy Rafa fan" anyway.... just lol. i'm glad there's a new Rafa fan who's chatty and likes spamming away, also she makes damn good points from time to time....

Also, i know this is not a poetry board but she's much more readable than you, sorry....

Well you know Nieko how much sleep I will loose over if you or anyone agree with me but you are dead wrong about the return of serve positioning on hard courts. McEnroe, Gilbert, TC Paulie A and others have made numerous comments that Rafa has got to move closer because it gives way too much to the Server..

As for this new poster. I guess my first post hurt his or her feelings..growing pains or whatever. I would suggest that IT just add me to the ignore list and just reply to nicer posters.

 

[The Strokes]

I often disagree with AP tennis wise, but check the bolded parts on your first response and you will see that you were not exactly nice to begin with. Yes, AP's previous post started with "foolishness", but hell, I am always amazed how quickly things escalate here.

BTW I agree with the "No fan is in a position to tell Rafa how to return" part. But on the other hand all fans here are in a position to debate it...
Any poster who engages on tennis discussions technically and strategically wise will be respected around here, at least from my part (if he can do that without offending others directly) agreeing with him or not.

OK, but read more carefully, please, you will see that I was actually being more careful than you think.
Everything bolded, except the first remark about "nonsense" is aimed at the general habit of telling Rafa how to play, i.e. "general advice" "people who have never held a racquet"--that is not specifically the poster, "flow of stupidity" comes out of THEM (I'll use caps to sub for bold).
Nothing but the first remark about nonsense was directed specifically at that poster, I have written the same thing to Nadal fans, and in fact, to a Nadal fan that was a freind of mine on another site--a reasonable poster who i got along great with, and I called him on thinking he knew more than Nadal and Toni and now Moya too on where to stand to recieve.

I sensed in this poster a tone of aggression and authority in his post that I responded to--it was not in response to anything i wrote btw--that I was willing to equal--but not escalate--into the personal realm, which I consider rude.

True, posters will debate whatever they choose to, and other posters will comment on the soundness of the debate itself, if they have good critical faculties.

Some of us can disagree and keep it civilized and friendly, some can't.

I've had nothing but good exchanges with you, for eg. so that's cool. Others are problematic, and that's where "ignore" comes in.

OK, there's tennis on, enough processing! But I did feel your response called for one from me.

 

[The Strokes]

Those are the tennisfrontier posters....

Those people are just stinking up the WTA threads nonstop, ok, Sharapova took meldonium but GSM and tossip are overdoing it, shitposting all day about her........ I don't like Steroina for example but I won't waste my time making 3000 shitposts/day about her lol....

not only that but they're throwing shit at the new champs too like Muguruza and Ostapenko without any reason whatsoever.....

Muguruza is a colourful person with a big game and great mentality, why call her "garbage"? etc etc

and that's going on nonstop, ofc it's always the tennisfrontier posters.....

look at the positives, Kate and Front are cool, GSM has some ok jokes from time to time and tossip's USA posts are hilarious if you look at them in a special way .....

And the biggest positive: The admins are damn nice here.....

and even the trolls are nicer than the mtf ones for example....

so all in all it's a pimp place once you got used to everybody....

Someone here is calling Mugu "garbage?" If Mugu is garbage, then what is left to call them?
Mugu is the best new blast of female tennis in a long time. Well that was a messed up sentence but there you have it.

LOL you have some great language ... "pimp place?" I'll got to urban slang for that one. You lift this place with your presence

 

[the AntiPusher]

I often disagree with AP tennis wise, but check the bolded parts on your first response and you will see that you were not exactly nice to begin with. Yes, AP's previous post started with "foolishness", but hell, I am always amazed how quickly things escalate here.

BTW I agree with the "No fan is in a position to tell Rafa how to return" part. But on the other hand all fans here are in a position to debate it...
Any poster who engages on tennis discussions technically and strategically wise will be respected around here, at least from my part (if he can do that without offending others directly) agreeing with him or not.

Thanks MrZZ. That poster was a bit obtuse with me but I took the high road without being too nasty..

As for you and I agreeing about tennis this is not Facebook this is a tennis forum that invites hopefully thoughtful competitive banter..

Btw..why does that poster keep saying I wordsmith and etc..but then tries to mentioned symathical grammar or etc. I make most of my posts while I am in the airports, don't have time for wordsmith or wherever

Miss Carol..just when I was happy being out you drew me back in
LOL

 

[Nekro]

Well you know Nieko how much sleep I will loose over if you or anyone agree with me but you are dead wrong about the return of serve positioning on hard courts. McEnroe, Gilbert, TC Paulie A and others have made numerous comments that Rafa has got to move closer because it gives way too much to the Server..

As for this new poster. I guess my first post hurt his or her feelings..growing pains or whatever. I would suggest that IT just add me to the ignore list and just reply to nicer posters.

Really, get your dyslexia treated bro.... I don't really mind your misspelling my name and i can sort out your messed up sentences too but you have probs seeing the structure of other people's post, like you can't see where a quotation starts and where it ends so you don't know which part was written by me and which wasn't......


BTW usually ur buddies scold people for using experts' opinion as support, just saying......


i don't lose any sleep either if all the tennisfrontier trolls just fo even though i got used to them already lol

Someone here is calling Mugu "garbage?" If Mugu is garbage, then what is left to call them?
Mugu is the best new blast of female tennis in a long time. Well that was a messed up sentence but there you have it.

LOL you have some great language ... "pimp place?" I'll got to urban slang for that one. You lift this place with your presence

yes, tossip is calling her ladyboy and garbage, GSM is also calling her garbage...

They're just jelly Mugu is beautiful and sexy, any guy would take her over Steroina any day, hell, i would take her over Wozniacki or Bouchard any day..... Those hobbits have no elegance and class like Mugu.....


Thanks but i'm often clumsy with eng, mess up the grammar, etc. but i picked up some slang over the years

Your writing skills on the other hand are excellent, it's tons of fun reading your posts

 

[Carol]

Thanks MrZZ. That poster was a bit obtuse with me but I took the high road without being too nasty..

As for you and I agreeing about tennis this is not Facebook this is a tennis forum that invites hopefully thoughtful competitive banter..

Btw..why does that poster keep saying I wordsmith and etc..but then tries to mentioned symathical grammar or etc. I make most of my posts while I am in the airports, don't have time for wordsmith or wherever

Miss Carol..just when I was happy being out you drew me back in
LOL

Oh come on AP, you know that around here we always have someone to discuss more often than with others. Ones because don't like that someone thinks in different way, others because have different favs and taste, another ones because they think they know more than anyone else, bah, at the end we can't take them too serious. And about grammar lol, mine is not the best because English is not my first language and sometimes is hard for me to keep a discussion because I can't explain myself so well than I can do in Spanish so if someone don't like my English I don't really care, at least I can communicate in this language too and anyway I don't see any Shakespeare around.....:mail:
I''m happy I drew you back in

 

[the AntiPusher]

Really, get your dyslexia treated bro.... I don't really mind your misspelling my name and i can sort out your messed up sentences too but you have probs seeing the structure of other people's post, like you can't see where a quotation starts and where it ends so you don't know which part was written by me and which wasn't......


BTW usually ur buddies scold people for using experts' opinion as support, just saying......


i don't lose any sleep either if all the tennisfrontier trolls just fo even though i got used to them already lol

yes, tossip is calling her ladyboy and garbage, GSM is also calling her garbage...

They're just jelly Mugu is beautiful and sexy, any guy would take her over Steroina any day, hell, i would take her over Wozniacki or Bouchard any day..... Those hobbits have no elegance and class like Mugu.....


Thanks but i'm often clumsy with eng, mess up the grammar, etc. but i picked up some slang over the years

Your writing skills on the other hand are excellent, it's tons of fun reading your posts

Did you ever think that maybe I misspelled your name on purpose, sort of a backhanded DIS

 

[mrzz]

OK, but read more carefully, please, you will see that I was actually being more careful than you think.
Everything bolded, except the first remark about "nonsense" is aimed at the general habit of telling Rafa how to play, i.e. "general advice" "people who have never held a racquet"--that is not specifically the poster, "flow of stupidity" comes out of THEM (I'll use caps to sub for bold).
Nothing but the first remark about nonsense was directed specifically at that poster, I have written the same thing to Nadal fans, and in fact, to a Nadal fan that was a freind of mine on another site--a reasonable poster who i got along great with, and I called him on thinking he knew more than Nadal and Toni and now Moya too on where to stand to recieve.

I sensed in this poster a tone of aggression and authority in his post that I responded to--it was not in response to anything i wrote btw--that I was willing to equal--but not escalate--into the personal realm, which I consider rude.

True, posters will debate whatever they choose to, and other posters will comment on the soundness of the debate itself, if they have good critical faculties.

Some of us can disagree and keep it civilized and friendly, some can't.

I've had nothing but good exchanges with you, for eg. so that's cool. Others are problematic, and that's where "ignore" comes in.

OK, there's tennis on, enough processing! But I did feel your response called for one from me.

Fair enough, even if your transition from the specific reply to the general comments was quite subtle. At least it got me...

Anyway I agree with you on the "thinking he knows more than" argument. I always have this in mind when I hear people complaining about scheduling. Not that I think it is impossible that someone here is able to make as good a judgment as a professional, but at least you must admit that we do not have the same level of information. Back to tennis now...

 

[mrzz]

As for you and I agreeing about tennis this is not Facebook this is a tennis forum that invites hopefully thoughtful competitive banter.

Yep. Zero problem in disagreeing as long as you can debate the points without getting personal. I highlighted the disagreement exactly for this reason.