Nadal vs Federer : Who Will Be the First To Retire

Kieran

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Would you agree with me, Lord Samson, that he made adjustments on hards, in relation to playing up on the baseline and smacking the serve a bit harder? He wasn't defensive, he was aggressive and trying to keep the points short.

Other than this, I'm still at a loss as to what you're suggesting. He should skip hards? Or when he plays them, don't try too hard? He's been far better on HC this year than grass...
 

brokenshoelace

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Clay Death said:
general masterclass and I have already said what we needed to say on the matter.

we said his best chances for slams during the remainder of his career will come on natural surfaces.

so that will not only save the knee but also prolong his career.


This is still very vague. "The best chance for slams will come on natural surfaces" is hardly revolutionary information, since that's always been the case for him (his best results in slams have been on clay, followed by grass).

Again, my question is very clear: How would you schedule his year?

The stuff you and Masterclass said is not scheduling his year. You're just giving vague and general advice (and hey, there's nothing wrong with that). But, for the sake of this argument, especially given how condescending you've been, give me something specific: How many hard court tournaments should Nadal play per year?
 

ClayDeath

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masterclass said:
Rafael Nadal has been fortunate to win 2 majors on hard courts in his career. At the AO in 2009, he somehow amazingly recovered from an exhausting 5+ hour 5 set match with Verdasco where he won when Verdasco basically broke himself by double faulting twice, including match point, at 4-5, and then went on to beat Federer a day and a half later also in 5 sets. Then he just had to jump on the hard courts at Rotterdam, didn't he? The damage was done, and though he managed to win 3 of the lesser clay tourneys, look what happened at Roland Garros and Wimbledon that year.

A year and a half later, he completed his best slam year by winning the US Open over Djokovic. During this tournament, he came up with an amazing serve and one might say his draw was favorable. In 2012, he played the longest AO match in history with Djokovic where they almost both collapsed. didn't play again till Indian Wells, where he lost to Federer in the SF, but won the doubles title, then at Miami he had to withdraw due to knee problems to Murray in the SF. Again, the damage had been done, though he was able to last through Roland Garros until Wimbledon.

He has won 8 majors on clay and 2 on grass. So 83% of majors were won on natural surfaces. A high percentage of his 58 titles have come on clay - 42, 3 on grass, so 45 of 58, close to 78% titles won overall on natural surfaces.


Now ask yourself, as he approaches his 10th year playing at slam winning level, and considering the competition, on which surface(s) do you think he has his best chances to win a major, or any other title? Even though he has won 13 titles on hard in a nine year span including 2 this year, showing he is not an incompetent player on the surface, it is still obvious where his best results and talents lie.

Again, though his play has ended up being disrupted due to his knee problems after Roland Garros/Wimbledon, the big problems with the knees always began with the hard courts in the early part of the year. He was able to manage the problems with his knees via shots and other therapy and keep himself going until after Roland Garros. Of course, if he started the clay season with problems, going deep in almost every clay tournament with the problems, also took its toll.

This makes sense when you consider that the Australian Open, Indian Wells, and Miami are probably the slowest, high bouncing surfaces, which equals longer rallies, longer games, and longer sets on the joint jarring surface. Even though these conditions favor Nadal's game style, it is murder on his knees. Resting for 7 months, and then in 2013 only playing only 1 hard court tournament - Indian Wells, prior to Montreal, is an investment that has probably helped him be healthier now than he has been in quite a while. Notice he wore no tape on the knee in Montreal.

In order to extend his career as much as possible and be successful, I think he must have been advised to avoid the hard courts as much as possible. Play only the required number of masters, majors, YEC, and possibly a tune up. Refrain from playing two hard court masters two weeks in a row in slow conditions, that is, visit his friend Larry Ellison and play Indian Wells and skip Miami. And only do this amount of hard court play if close to 100% healthy. Using this strategy might get him to 2016 in reasonable shape. Playing 5-6 hour best of 5 matches at the AO and 3-4 hour best of 3 matches at Indian Wells and Miami and other insignificant hard court tournaments is a recipe for problems.

Respectfully,
masterclass




this post spells it all out sports fans.
 

brokenshoelace

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"Play only the required number of masters, majors, YEC, and possibly a tune up. Refrain from playing two hard court masters two weeks in a row in slow conditions, that is, visit his friend Larry Ellison and play Indian Wells and skip Miami. And only do this amount of hard court play if close to 100% healthy. "

Isn't that what he's been doing this year?

And yes, Canada and Cinci are two weeks in row but they're not slow conditions. So again. since it seems Masterclass and the rest of us are all in agreement that Nadal should play hard court slams, and hard court masters (but skip Miami), what is the disagreement about, and why are we accused of wanting him to "kill himself"?
 

ClayDeath

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we will have to come up with a perfect schedule for him tomorrow.

we have to give it some thought.


a schedule that would lead to a bit of a longevity in the sport.


I would like to see him in the sport until he is 32 or 33.



who wants to go first with the perfect schedule and the perfect training on a year around basis?
 

the AntiPusher

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Clay Death said:
we will have to come up with a perfect schedule for him tomorrow.

we have to give it some thought.


a schedule that would lead to a bit of a longevity in the sport.


I would like to see him in the sport until he is 32 or 33.



who wants to go first with the perfect schedule and the perfect training on a year around basis?

Well.. You and MC definitively are of the same DNA:cool:
 

ClayDeath

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ok sports fans.

does anything change after what you saw tonight?


when do you expect roger to exit the sport?



I thought he played at a very high level.

he said he is making progress and that he is moving in the right direction.
 

DarthFed

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He retires after 2014 if he continues to suck. It is also possible he calls it a day if he has a good 2014. I highly doubt he goes to 2016. So it will be 2014 or 2015
 

ClayDeath

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he cant win at the same rate as he used to. there are simply bigger, stronger, and younger sharks around these days and they keep coming after you.


I would think that he can be a factor at Wimbledon in 2014. he just has to prepare well and bring his best game there.
 

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DarthFed said:
He retires after 2014 if he continues to suck. It is also possible he calls it a day if he has a good 2014. I highly doubt he goes to 2016. So it will be 2014 or 2015

Could you imagine if he had pulled a Bartoli tonight, and announced his retirement after tonight's match? I don't think he would ever do such a thing, but seeing this thread again, on the heels of Bartoli announcing her retirement after some random match, it got me wondering how bizarre that would be.

I like the idea of his doing a year-long farewell tour, giving everyone one last chance to see him play. Perhaps cap it off with a few exhibition matches with Rafa in Madison Square Garden to benefit Roger's charity.
 

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Only way he does well at another Wimbledon is if he doesn't see a big server/hitter in the early rounds and QF. Berd, Tsonga and others are a growing list of players who will almost certainly beat Roger there given his ROS. Even if they aren't in his draw it will be a struggle as we saw this year and in the first few rounds of 2012. If he makes the semis he will be dangerous as the other top players aren't great servers and aren't necessarily big hitters who will blast him off the court.
 

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tented said:
DarthFed said:
He retires after 2014 if he continues to suck. It is also possible he calls it a day if he has a good 2014. I highly doubt he goes to 2016. So it will be 2014 or 2015

Could you imagine if he had pulled a Bartoli tonight, and announced his retirement after tonight's match? I don't think he would ever do such a thing, but seeing this thread again, on the heels of Bartoli announcing her retirement after some random match, it got me wondering how bizarre that would be.

I like the idea of his doing a year-long farewell tour, giving everyone one last chance to see him play. Perhaps cap it off with a few exhibition matches with Rafa in Madison Square Garden to benefit Roger's charity.

He would never do that, but I wouldn't expect a prolonged farewell tour either.
 

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DarthFed said:
tented said:
DarthFed said:
He retires after 2014 if he continues to suck. It is also possible he calls it a day if he has a good 2014. I highly doubt he goes to 2016. So it will be 2014 or 2015

Could you imagine if he had pulled a Bartoli tonight, and announced his retirement after tonight's match? I don't think he would ever do such a thing, but seeing this thread again, on the heels of Bartoli announcing her retirement after some random match, it got me wondering how bizarre that would be.

I like the idea of his doing a year-long farewell tour, giving everyone one last chance to see him play. Perhaps cap it off with a few exhibition matches with Rafa in Madison Square Garden to benefit Roger's charity.

He would never do that, but I wouldn't expect a prolonged farewell tour either.

Well, I think it would be fun. He is the GOAT, and he has millions of fans all over the world.
 

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tented said:
DarthFed said:
tented said:
DarthFed said:
He retires after 2014 if he continues to suck. It is also possible he calls it a day if he has a good 2014. I highly doubt he goes to 2016. So it will be 2014 or 2015

Could you imagine if he had pulled a Bartoli tonight, and announced his retirement after tonight's match? I don't think he would ever do such a thing, but seeing this thread again, on the heels of Bartoli announcing her retirement after some random match, it got me wondering how bizarre that would be.

I like the idea of his doing a year-long farewell tour, giving everyone one last chance to see him play. Perhaps cap it off with a few exhibition matches with Rafa in Madison Square Garden to benefit Roger's charity.

He would never do that, but I wouldn't expect a prolonged farewell tour either.

Well, I think it would be fun. He is the GOAT, and he has millions of fans all over the world.

Roger likes to project he will be around forever, that he is more motivated than ever, feeling better than ever, etc. He doesn't want the others to have a competitive edge over him.
 

ClayDeath

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Kieran said:
Would you agree with me, Lord Samson, that he made adjustments on hards, in relation to playing up on the baseline and smacking the serve a bit harder? He wasn't defensive, he was aggressive and trying to keep the points short.

Other than this, I'm still at a loss as to what you're suggesting. He should skip hards? Or when he plays them, don't try too hard? He's been far better on HC this year than grass...



those adjustments are difficult this late in his career and also with such a demanding style of play.


there is no question he is excellent at problem solving in a match to try to swing things in his favor.


now against jerzy, nole, and milos he did step in a little close to the baseline. especially when returning serve.

that is a difficult adjustment for him but he is trying so that is admirable.

I would train more on clay on year around basis. that is step #1 in my way of looking at things.

that will help a lot.
 

ClayDeath

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I have an idea:

they both should retire together from singles in about 5-6 years and then start competing in doubles together.


what a fascinating team they would make.

and the world will come to watch them play.
 

tented

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Clay Death said:
I have an idea:

they both should retire together from singles in about 5-6 years and then start competing in doubles together.


what a fascinating team they would make.

and the world will come to watch them play.

Several years ago, I saw an interview of Rafa, in which one of the questions was with whom would you most like to play doubles? Without even stopping to think, he said Federer. (They also asked with whom he would least like to play doubles. You know the answer ...)
 

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DarthFed said:
Roger likes to project he will be around forever, that he is more motivated than ever, feeling better than ever, etc. He doesn't want the others to have a competitive edge over him.

That's the main drawback I can think of, too.

Perhaps, then, a post-official retirement series of exhibitions.

I wonder how active he will want to be afterwards. Some players virtually disappear, while others can't seem to stay away from a TV camera. I don't see him becoming a commentator, like McEnroe, Navratilova, Courier, etc., but I also don't think he would be satisfied sitting at home.
 

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I'd be interesting to see if Fed would actively look to play some future top 10 players when he retires to see how he fares against them. Sampras and Fed's exhibitions were pretty high level stuff and I'd love to Roger really trying to beat younger champs when he retires as opposed to just turning up for appearance fees and letting the other guy take it easy on him. His shotmaking and skill will always be there and he could make sure he practices well in advance.
 

ClayDeath

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tented said:
Clay Death said:
I have an idea:

they both should retire together from singles in about 5-6 years and then start competing in doubles together.


what a fascinating team they would make.

and the world will come to watch them play.

Several years ago, I saw an interview of Rafa, in which one of the questions was with whom would you most like to play doubles? Without even stopping to think, he said Federer. (They also asked with whom he would least like to play doubles. You know the answer ...)

he and rafa would be a huge global draw as a doubles team.

it is also a way to stay involved in the sport they love so much.


and furthermore, they may actually find a way to win and be competitive.


there will be no greater story in tennis than a couple of old timers---like nadal and roger--- winning a slam in doubles.

especially since they both happen to be the biggest draw in tennis anyway.