Nadal vs Federer : Who Will Be the First To Retire

masterclass

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Indeed sir.

Expectations are always high for the best players. That is the nature of things in sport. But they are not machines. They have ups and downs like anyone else. Being the best, they have fewer of them.
But as they age, they have to manage themselves better and smarter than when they were young if they want to continue at a top level considering the prevailing conditions.

Roger was playing between 80-97 (92-5 in 2006) matches per year prior to 2009. He has played less since then, except for 2012 where he was 71-12 in 83 matches. He has only played 40 matches thus far in 2013. Now what do fans want? Do they want him to play 80+ matches/year and last a couple of years, or maybe 60-70 and last 5 or more years?

Respectfully,
masterclass
 

ClayDeath

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general masterclass go by the castle and check out general Javier`s amazing super sig.
 

masterclass

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It's past 3 am for me here. I got up a little after 2 to watch the Federer-Kohlschreiber match, but the WTA error fest (103 total UE's so far) with Sharapova vs. Stephens is still going. :(

Respectfully,
masterclass
 

zalvar

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Greed? lol. Getting a little melodramatic here. We don't need him to clean up anything, but pigeon holing himself will diminish his confidence and hand huge titles to his rivals. If he loses early then he loses. He's already cutting back on hard courts. What the heck do you all want?

- He played in South American clay instead of Dubai.
- Skipped Miami.
- He's only entered 1000 Hard courts. AND
- instead of Shanghai and Paris Indoors (1000s), he's playing Beijing and Basel (500s) (easier draws).
 

ClayDeath

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I want longevity and 2-3 more slams.

as general masterclass and I have spelled it out, the chances of those remaining slams are the highest on the natural surfaces. even so those are only possible if he plays his cards just right.

I think we all would like to see him hang around until he is 32 years old or longer.
 

the AntiPusher

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masterclass said:
Rafael Nadal has been fortunate to win 2 majors on hard courts in his career. At the AO in 2009, he somehow amazingly recovered from an exhausting 5+ hour 5 set match with Verdasco where he won when Verdasco basically broke himself by double faulting twice, including match point, at 4-5, and then went on to beat Federer a day and a half later also in 5 sets. Then he just had to jump on the hard courts at Rotterdam, didn't he? The damage was done, and though he managed to win 3 of the lesser clay tourneys, look what happened at Roland Garros and Wimbledon that year.

A year and a half later, he completed his best slam year by winning the US Open over Djokovic. During this tournament, he came up with an amazing serve and one might say his draw was favorable. In 2012, he played the longest AO match in history with Djokovic where they almost both collapsed. didn't play again till Indian Wells, where he lost to Federer in the SF, but won the doubles title, then at Miami he had to withdraw due to knee problems to Murray in the SF. Again, the damage had been done, though he was able to last through Roland Garros until Wimbledon.

He has won 8 majors on clay and 2 on grass. So 83% of majors were won on natural surfaces. A high percentage of his 58 titles have come on clay - 42, 3 on grass, so 45 of 58, close to 78% titles won overall on natural surfaces.


Now ask yourself, as he approaches his 10th year playing at slam winning level, and considering the competition, on which surface(s) do you think he has his best chances to win a major, or any other title? Even though he has won 13 titles on hard in a nine year span including 2 this year, showing he is not an incompetent player on the surface, it is still obvious where his best results and talents lie.

Again, though his play has ended up being disrupted due to his knee problems after Roland Garros/Wimbledon, the big problems with the knees always began with the hard courts in the early part of the year. He was able to manage the problems with his knees via shots and other therapy and keep himself going until after Roland Garros. Of course, if he started the clay season with problems, going deep in almost every clay tournament with the problems, also took its toll.

This makes sense when you consider that the Australian Open, Indian Wells, and Miami are probably the slowest, high bouncing surfaces, which equals longer rallies, longer games, and longer sets on the joint jarring surface. Even though these conditions favor Nadal's game style, it is murder on his knees. Resting for 7 months, and then in 2013 only playing only 1 hard court tournament - Indian Wells, prior to Montreal, is an investment that has probably helped him be healthier now than he has been in quite a while. Notice he wore no tape on the knee in Montreal.

In order to extend his career as much as possible and be successful, I think he must have been advised to avoid the hard courts as much as possible. Play only the required number of masters, majors, YEC, and possibly a tune up. Refrain from playing two hard court masters two weeks in a row in slow conditions, that is, visit his friend Larry Ellison and play Indian Wells and skip Miami. And only do this amount of hard court play if close to 100% healthy. Using this strategy might get him to 2016 in reasonable shape. Playing 5-6 hour best of 5 matches at the AO and 3-4 hour best of 3 matches at Indian Wells and Miami and other insignificant hard court tournaments is a recipe for problems.

Respectfully,
masterclass
OMG. Its two of them, are they Twins?... Interesting post.. maybe his camp will listen to the two of you and Rafa will shut it down until the last week in August.

Thank the Good Lord that American football is around the corner..
 

ClayDeath

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wrong again general anti pusher.

each of us counts as 4. so there are 8 of us.
 

Kieran

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Funny that you're both criticising Ralph for doing what you suggest, which is that he play the minimum legal requirement on hards.

He's doing that. He's legally required to play Cinci. He skipped Miami. He's not overdoing hard court tennis.

But if he has to play some then he should play to win. There's a huge gap between Wimbledon and the clay court season. If you think he can take 7 months off every year and come back and win "2-3" more slams, you're deluding yourself. Also, for his legacy sake, better to win even one more HC slam that 3 more in Paris. He's made his point on clay! But he's a much greater player than just 2 slams on hards.

And Wimbledon, a natural surface, hasn't been kind to him the last couple of years. Maybe he should skip that too?
 

brokenshoelace

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Clay Death said:
it is not enough for you folks that he has 8 titles already this year and that he basically kills himself to capture everything in sight on the red clay.

and he has been doing that on the red clay for a decade. for a bloody decade.

it is just not enough for you. you want him to kill himself the entire year on all possible surfaces just you can say he has more titles on other surfaces.


I thought greed had its limits but it is just absolutely boundless with you folks.

you want him to dominate on every single surface from start of the year to the end of the year.


have you considered the fact that he is just one man? have you considered that he has the most demanding style of play of any player out there?

have you thought about the condition of his knee?

have you considered the fact that the sport has become very demanding?


do you want him gone from the sport in a year?


I rather see him healthy and well and playing for 5-6 more years. and I know he can capture at least 2-3 more slams on natural surfaces if he is wise.

This is a pretty over-the-top, hyperbolic post. Nobody wants him to "kill himself." Chill down. The condescension seems particularly misplaced when you're putting words in people's mouths. There hasn't been a single post suggesting we want him to "dominate" every surface (I don't think he's capable of doing that anyway, even when healthy). The general consensus is, for him to stay an elite player, he needs to play on hard courts, since they constitute the majority of the season, but choose his battles carefully (He's done that already this year, to good results too). You on the other hand, seemingly want him to skip every single thing on the cement (which is not very realistic).

Someone asked you this earlier but you still haven't given a clear answer: What do you suggest he does? Play only on clay and grass (correct me if I'm misinterpreting you)? In other words, he should only play from April (or February, if you take the South American tournaments) until July for the rest of his career?

Again, I'm only asking this to stop the disconnect. How would you schedule Rafael Nadal's year?
 

brokenshoelace

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masterclass said:
Expectations are always high for the best players. That is the nature of things in sport. But they are not machines. They have ups and downs like anyone else. Being the best, they have fewer of them.
But as they age, they have to manage themselves better and smarter than when they were young if they want to continue at a top level considering the prevailing conditions.

I don't think anyone here is naive enough, or inexperienced enough, about tennis to think otherwise, so I fail to see the importance of this.
 

tented

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Roger is never going to win the Olympic Gold. He has had four opportunities, and failed each time. The idea that he's going to hang around with Rio in mind as his long-term goal, so that he can finally get the Gold medal isn't realistic. If he couldn't do it in '00, '04, '08, or '12, it won't happen three years from now, at the age of 35.
 

Kieran

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tented said:
Roger is never going to win the Olympic Gold. He has had four opportunities, and failed each time. The idea that he's going to hang around with Rio in mind as his long-term goal, so that he can finally get the Gold medal isn't realistic. If he couldn't do it in '00, '04, '08, or '12, it won't happen three years from now, at the age of 35.

Exactly. What's the medal below bronze? He won't even get that!
 

zalvar

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Kieran said:
tented said:
Roger is never going to win the Olympic Gold. He has had four opportunities, and failed each time. The idea that he's going to hang around with Rio in mind as his long-term goal, so that he can finally get the Gold medal isn't realistic. If he couldn't do it in '00, '04, '08, or '12, it won't happen three years from now, at the age of 35.

Exactly. What's the medal below bronze? He won't even get that!

Hey now! If Nicolas Massu can do it, Roger can too :p I expect by 2016 Janowicz and DelPo would be kicking everyone else's butt.
 

ClayDeath

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Broken_Shoelace said:
masterclass said:
Expectations are always high for the best players. That is the nature of things in sport. But they are not machines. They have ups and downs like anyone else. Being the best, they have fewer of them.
But as they age, they have to manage themselves better and smarter than when they were young if they want to continue at a top level considering the prevailing conditions.

I don't think anyone here is naive enough, or inexperienced enough, about tennis to think otherwise, so I fail to see the importance of this.



general masterclass is making one hell of a point.




he is one of the brightest minds in tennis.
 

brokenshoelace

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Clay Death said:
Broken_Shoelace said:
masterclass said:
Expectations are always high for the best players. That is the nature of things in sport. But they are not machines. They have ups and downs like anyone else. Being the best, they have fewer of them.
But as they age, they have to manage themselves better and smarter than when they were young if they want to continue at a top level considering the prevailing conditions.

I don't think anyone here is naive enough, or inexperienced enough, about tennis to think otherwise, so I fail to see the importance of this.



general masterclass is making one hell of a point.




he is one of the brightest minds in tennis.

You still haven't answered my question. How would you schedule Nadal's season?
 

Kieran

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Broken_Shoelace said:
You still haven't answered my question. How would you schedule Nadal's season?

Hey, get in the queue! I asked it even earlier and got ignored first.... :p
 

ClayDeath

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general masterclass and I have already said what we needed to say on the matter.

we said his best chances for slams during the remainder of his career will come on natural surfaces.

so that will not only save the knee but also prolong his career.
 

Kieran

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Clay Death said:
general masterclass and I have already said what we needed to say on the matter.

we said his best chances for slams during the remainder of his career will come on natural surfaces.

so that will not only save the knee but also prolong his career.

So he retires for 7 months every year, hangs around on a yacht, his ranking slides and he returns again every February?
 

ClayDeath

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nobody has made that suggestion.

We are just saying don't look for too many hard court slams from him going forward.

and we are saying that if he does not make additional adjustments as they relate to practice and match play on hard courts, next knee issue can surface again.


Lets hope not obviously but as general masterclass has suggested, there is a pattern in place of sustaining and compounding knee issues on the hard courts.