Murray calls for Dope Testing Reform

[Jelenafan]

Interesting how everyone jumps on my point about his parents and uncle. Firstly, that suggests you haven't read back, and secondly, I'm not really sure how all of this compares to parents of athletes in general, as they aren't "all parents," (I have described them: they are prosperous, and they far less hovering than Federer's, Djokovic's or Murray's, for example) and to little league in particular. Are they doping in Little League, now?

PS: Nice to see you around again, Jelenafan!

To add, the Nadals have never seemed to me the overbearing intrusive type of parents you so often see with some tennis families.

Certainly Yuri Sharapova , moving 7 year old Maria to another country physically separated from her mother for years doesn’t seem at all the same correlation with the Nadal's. Nobody should be shocked he was doping his daughter at a young age and teaching her that all her fellow competitors were her enemy.

It Is quite distasteful to see some posters here not give Rafa’s family the benefit of the doubt that would give their own faves’ families. The double standards reek to high heaven.

 

[Moxie]

To add, the Nadals have never seemed to me the overbearing intrusive type of parents you so often see with some tennis families.

Certainly Yuri Sharapova , moving 7 year old Maria to another country physically separated from her mother for years doesn’t seem at all the same correlation with the Nadal's. Nobody should be shocked he was doping his daughter at a young age and teaching her that all her fellow competitors were her enemy.

It Is quite distasteful to see some posters here not give Rafa’s family the benefit of the doubt that would give their own faves’ families. The double standards reek to high heaven.

I think the families are the least of it, but I agree that the double-standards reek.

 

[Front242]

I think the families are the least of it, but I agree that the double-standards reek.

There are no double standards despite some of you trying to tell us all there are. Federer does not have unlimited energy and unparalleled stamina. He tires like a normal human being which is very different from a guy who can play back to back 5+ hour matches and still be fresh as a daisy. If Federer plays a long match, it noticeably affects his next match and, more often than not, he loses next round.

The bs fountain of youth you and others keep harping on about for Federer in 2017 featured him barely scraping past Nishikori and Wawrinka. Hardly a straight sets lights out drubbing with him still fresh as a daisy.

Lastly, Federer has never sprouted massive muscle gains in less than 3 months and then proceeded to turn from hulk to bald, skinny dude with practically no muscles not long afterwards. Come back to us all when Roger has achieved all of this and we can discuss supposed double standards.

One more thing to add, no it does not involve doping to be more aggressive on ROS or to take backhands earlier and hit them with purpose instead of chipping. Doesn't look like you have half as much to go on unfortunately. Hence the actual complete lack of double standards...

 

[Moxie]

There are no double standards despite some of you trying to tell us all there are. Federer does not have unlimited energy and unparalleled stamina. He tires like a normal human being which is very different from a guy who can play back to back 5+ hour matches and still be fresh as a daisy. If Federer plays a long match, it noticeably affects his next match and, more often than not, he loses next round.

The bs fountain of youth you and others keep harping on about for Federer in 2017 featured him barely scraping past Nishikori and Wawrinka. Hardly a straight sets lights out drubbing with him still fresh as a daisy.

Lastly, Federer has never sprouted massive muscle gains in less than 3 months and then proceeded to turn from hulk to bald, skinny dude with practically no muscles not long afterwards. Come back to us all when Roger has achieved all of this and we can discuss supposed double standards.

One more thing to add, no it does not involve doping to be more aggressive on ROS or to take backhands earlier and hit them with purpose instead of chipping. Doesn't look like you have half as much to go on unfortunately. Hence the actual complete lack of double standards...

You've completely ignored my question to Darth, which had specifically to do with PEDs to recover from injury.

However, as to your bolded above, another way to "spin" that (which you are doing) is to say that he won 3 5-setters in a row, including the final over Nadal. And you're the guy who likes to remind us that he lost the USO SF v. Cilic in part because he was tired out from the 5-setter v. Monfils.

 

[Federberg]

To this point, I don't know why you and Front play so coy about Roger's comeback in 2017, then, and outraged when anyone suggests anything about a better strategy for his BH. He had both incentive (Nadal and Djokovic on his tail, specifically,) and personal motivation (his records, lack of a Major win for 4 1/2 years, etc.) to use something to help his own recovery along. As I've said many times, I'm not saying that he did. But it fits your description. My disgruntlement with you guys is, as always, your double-standard.

you're not making any sense at all. In the first instance, Federer was not running around like an energiser bunny in '17. He had a better backhand, better court positioning, and a far more aggressive mindset. There wasn't an exceptional increase in physicality

Please stop with the whataboutism. It's unbecoming, and frankly two wrongs don't make a right.

 

[Moxie]

you're not making any sense at all. In the first instance, Federer was not running around like an energiser bunny in '17. He had a better backhand, better court positioning, and a far more aggressive mindset. There wasn't an exceptional increase in physicality

Please stop with the whataboutism. It's unbecoming, and frankly two wrongs don't make a right.

You completely miss the point. And you ignore that I've said a million times that I don't think Roger was doping. My intention is to point out to Darth and Front that they keep a double-standard. They both tell me about all the things that doping is useful for, and it's not only about "hopping around like an energizer bunny," as you lot like to say, ad nauseum. But 3 x 5-setters in a row is a feat of stamina. And don't tell me that I'm being "unbecoming." I am combatting a forum-lifetime's worth of listening to BS about Nadal from these guys, which they dish, but not in the least even-handedly. THAT is my point. Please read the whole conversation. Thanks.

 

[Federberg]

You completely miss the point. And you ignore that I've said a million times that I don't think Roger was doping. My intention is to point out to Darth and Front that they keep a double-standard. They both tell me about all the things that doping is useful for, and it's not only about "hopping around like an energizer bunny," as you lot like to say, ad nauseum. But 3 x 5-setters in a row is a feat of stamina. And don't tell me that I'm being "unbecoming." I am combatting a forum-lifetime's worth of listening to BS about Nadal from these guys, which they dish, but not in the least even-handedly. THAT is my point. Please read the whole conversation. Thanks.

It's annoying when someone interjects without context. I hear you!

 

[Moxie]

It's annoying when someone interjects without context. I hear you!

I would love it if you'd join the conversation, though. You have a reasonable position and you're a Fed man.

 

[DarthFed]

You've completely ignored my question to Darth, which had specifically to do with PEDs to recover from injury.

However, as to your bolded above, another way to "spin" that (which you are doing) is to say that he won 3 5-setters in a row, including the final over Nadal. And you're the guy who likes to remind us that he lost the USO SF v. Cilic in part because he was tired out from the 5-setter v. Monfils.

Except he didn't win 3 in a row, he had an easy QF with Mischa after beating Kei. And after the Stan match he had an extra day to recover. It wasn't a Herculean feat stamina wise.

 

[Federberg]

I would love it if you'd join the conversation, though. You have a reasonable position and you're a Fed man.

Too busy watching paint dry

 

[Front242]

You've completely ignored my question to Darth, which had specifically to do with PEDs to recover from injury.

However, as to your bolded above, another way to "spin" that (which you are doing) is to say that he won 3 5-setters in a row, including the final over Nadal. And you're the guy who likes to remind us that he lost the USO SF v. Cilic in part because he was tired out from the 5-setter v. Monfils.

They weren't taxing 5 setters at all and mostly became 5 setters due to drops in level which cost him. Also I never mentioned him being tired from the Monfils match. He had no answer for Cilic's ground game that day as he was playing like a beast and serving great. We've all seen him make other top players look hopeless when he's playing his best. The Monfils match wasn't physically draining, maybe mental fatigue but he lost to Cilic due to how good Cilic played so count me out of that made up part about me claiming he was tired. Never said it.

As we saw from his match against Nadal recently, Cilic would routinely beat the top guys if he wasn't a headcase.

 

[Moxie]

They weren't taxing 5 setters at all and mostly became 5 setters due to drops in level which cost him. Also I never mentioned him being tired from the Monfils match. He had no answer for Cilic's ground game that day as he was playing like a beast and serving great. We've all seen him make other top players look hopeless when he's playing his best. The Monfils match wasn't physically draining, maybe mental fatigue but he lost to Cilic due to how good Cilic played so count me out of that made up part about me claiming he was tired. Never said it.

As we saw from his match against Nadal recently, Cilic would routinely beat the top guys if he wasn't a headcase.

I believe you've said many times that the loss to Monfils contributed to Roger losing to Cilic, and others have, as well. But no matter. The point of the post was about PEDs for recovery from injury, which was Darth's point as a reason for Rafa to dope at 18 years old. If you don't believe that PEDs do that, then say so.

 

[Horsa]

It's annoying when someone interjects without context. I hear you!

I guess that's 1 of the reasons I do your head in sometimes then. Sometimes instead of responding to the whole conversation I just respond to a part of the conversation & sometimes just to a part of a comment without considering everything else. What also annoys you about me is I then mess around playing with words & when you try to reason with me I act daft or sound like a broken record. Then when you treat me as though I'm as daft as I act I either stop acting daft, sound like a broken record or back out.

 

[Jelenafan]

You've completely ignored my question to Darth, which had specifically to do with PEDs to recover from injury.

However, as to your bolded above, another way to "spin" that (which you are doing) is to say that he won 3 5-setters in a row, including the final over Nadal. And you're the guy who likes to remind us that he lost the USO SF v. Cilic in part because he was tired out from the 5-setter v. Monfils.

Yup double standards.

Many players who dope are relatively thin and not well defined physically, and if it's stamina that is the issue, heck Borg must have been doped 24/7. As to balding in your twenties, are we being serious. half the friggin male population loses hair early, Pete Sampras was becoming a Friar in his twenties to name just one...

It's the usual tactic, attack and smear without proof to divert attention.

The reality is that because trollish posters can't bring themselves to attribute anything positive to Rafa, they try to tear down with innuendo and smear campaigns. It's tiresome and immature. You don't have to be a e fan \to be respectful, but whatever.

Roger Federer is relatively classy and a nice guy (a bit whiny for my taste but nobody is perfect) and he has some great fans. I should know, my wife is one of them...LOL.

However the subgroup here who hide behind Monfed's trollish posts quoting him when he insults Rafa, or that one poster who uses a spanish slur to describe Rafa that is actually VERY offensive and if he said it face to face to someone would justifiably get his ass kicked, they do Roger a disservice. However behind a computer screen they feel "safe".

Getting back to Murray's point, it's hard to get a "fair" doping schedule because things are applied so inconsistently, so even having more yearly random tests wouldn't really address the full problem.

 

[Horsa]

Yup double standards.

Many players who dope are relatively thin and not well defined physically, and if it's stamina that is the issue, heck Borg must have been doped 24/7. As to balding in your twenties, are we being serious. half the friggin male population loses hair early, Pete Sampras was becoming a Friar in his twenties to name just one...

It's the usual tactic, attack and smear without proof to divert attention.

The reality is that because trollish posters can't bring themselves to attribute anything positive to Rafa, they try to tear down with innuendo and smear campaigns. It's tiresome and immature. You don't have to be a e fan \to be respectful, but whatever.

Roger Federer is relatively classy and a nice guy (a bit whiny for my taste but nobody is perfect) and he has some great fans. I should know, my wife is one of them...LOL.

However the subgroup here who hide behind Monfed's trollish posts quoting him when he insults Rafa, or that one poster who uses a spanish slur to describe Rafa that is actually VERY offensive and if he said it face to face to someone would justifiably get his ass kicked, they do Roger a disservice. However behind a computer screen they feel "safe".

Getting back to Murray's point, it's hard to get a "fair" doping schedule because things are applied so inconsistently, so even having more yearly random tests wouldn't really address the full problem.

I think Monfed has a bad influence on people. I've had him on ignore for ages but find other people imitating them especially his ridiculous ones. I just had to laugh & stop myself from saying what I really thought a couple of times this week. I'm also sick of the libellous accusations. (Libellous because they're written & not spoken. Spoken comments would be slanderous. I haven't seen any proper proof which can't be explained away.)

I would agree. It would be nice to have a fairer & more efficient doping test schedule but don't think that this would be plausible.

 

[Front242]

I believe you've said many times that the loss to Monfils contributed to Roger losing to Cilic, and others have, as well. But no matter. The point of the post was about PEDs for recovery from injury, which was Darth's point as a reason for Rafa to dope at 18 years old. If you don't believe that PEDs do that, then say so.

One more time, no, I didn't make any comment about fatigue from his match against Monfils at the USO being a reason for his loss to Cilic. It was all down to how well Cilic played.

Yes, PEDs speed recovery and you need look no further than Serena Williams' dodgy retroactive TUEs near big events for evidence of that. There is massive opportunity for unscrupulous doctors to use HGH with PRP treatment and this has been discussed to death. 2 of Nadal's best seasons (2010 and 2013) came after his PRP treatments and there was mention of growth factors which are banned so make of that what you will. His main incentive to dope of course is to be better than he actually is (artificial stamina, for example) and recovery from injury is only one facet for discussion.

 

[Moxie]

One more time, no, I didn't make any comment about fatigue from his match against Monfils at the USO being a reason for his loss to Cilic. It was all down to how well Cilic played.

Yes, PEDs speed recovery and you need look no further than Serena Williams' dodgy retroactive TUEs near big events for evidence of that. There is massive opportunity for unscrupulous doctors to use HGH with PRP treatment and this has been discussed to death. 2 of Nadal's best seasons (2010 and 2013) came after his PRP treatments and there was mention of growth factors which are banned so make of that what you will. His main incentive to dope of course is to be better than he actually is (artificial stamina, for example) and recovery from injury is only one facet for discussion.

No need to distract from Federer's recovery from injury and long lay-off by mentioning Serena, or calling her TUE's "dodgy" and "retroactive." You have to admit, if Rafa had taken 7 months off and come out of the gate winning the AO, as Roger did, you'd never have stopped implying it was due to doping.

2005 was also one of Nadal's best seasons, which is one of the reasons you and Darth have to insist that he started doping then. But I would contend that an injury to his foot was likely not a good enough reason to start doping, as he was only 18 and had no reason to mess with something that was already working really well, i.e., his game. It's only that it doesn't suit your narrative.

And why do you have to qualify stamina with "artificial"? That's an editorial point. There's no really good reason to think that Nadal's stamina is enhanced. If Nadal were juicing, why would he be the one who works so hard in training, as he famously is? If he had the bump from a needle or doctor, wouldn't he be able to lay off a bit in training? Roger, however, famously barely hits the ball around and is all ready for competition.

I hope you read the post above by @Jelenafan. There's a lot in it for you.

 

[Moxie]

Of course it has a lot to do with it but we are talking an insane transformation in a two month span. And apparently it was 2004 AO to 2004 Miami (Front corrected me).

Federberg nipped in to say that you should look at his father and uncles. You said "of course it has a lot to do with it," but then you blew past that with your regular hair on fire BS. It actually IS worth looking at his father and uncles, since you make such a thing about his physique. You see his body type in his genes. And, as I've pointed out before, he's got an uncle who was a great footballer, with football being one of the highest endurance sports there is. He's genetically disposed to big muscles and high-endurance, it could surely be argued.

"Insane transformation in a two month span?" What would that be? I'm sure you've got your dates wrong, and I'll let you correct, but...seriously? What was this insane transformation? You said that a reason for Nadal to dope would have been because he had an injury in 2004. He was absent from April to July 2004. But he didn't light up the world after that. He played something like 10 tournaments and 2 DC after that injury lay-off to the end of 2004. And a lot of them were on clay. He won 1 tournament. It wasn't like he lit up the world after his injury. So your notion that he "juiced" to sort out his injury doesn't work, otherwise, wouldn't he have been huge and lighting up the stats after 7/04?

 

[Mastoor]

This is all BS. Dopes they may use are not on the list of banned substances, so what's the point of more testing? To screen for drugs that are not banned?

 

[Moxie]

Federberg nipped in to say that you should look at his father and uncles. You said "of course it has a lot to do with it," but then you blew past that with your regular hair on fire BS. It actually IS worth looking at his father and uncles, since you make such a thing about his physique. You see his body type in his genes. And, as I've pointed out before, he's got an uncle who was a great footballer, with football being one of the highest endurance sports there is. He's genetically disposed to big muscles and high-endurance, it could surely be argued.

"Insane transformation in a two month span?" What would that be? I'm sure you've got your dates wrong, and I'll let you correct, but...seriously? What was this insane transformation? You said that a reason for Nadal to dope would have been because he had an injury in 2004. He was absent from April to July 2004. But he didn't light up the world after that. He played something like 10 tournaments and 2 DC after that injury lay-off to the end of 2004. And a lot of them were on clay. He won 1 tournament. It wasn't like he lit up the world after his injury. So your notion that he "juiced" to sort out his injury doesn't work, otherwise, wouldn't he have been huge and lighting up the stats after 7/04?

I'm still waiting for you to tell me about this "insane transformation" that Nadal made in a two-month span of time. And now you've changed the time-frame. (Front "corrected you." As if he's the dispassionate authority. LOL.) Interesting, since you've been so committed to a different time frame, and, more recently, the notion that Rafa's motivation to dope would have been his injury, which happened after the time you now claim. So, what is it? What was this big transformation? And what about you and Front trying to tell me that Rafa was a 98-pound weakling in late 2004, and a he-man in 2005? Now the timeline moves back? Clearly, you guys are having a hard time shucking and jiving out your theories. Why? Because they are baseless. They're just the desperation attempts to excuse Roger's poor record against Nadal, and the endless smear campaign against him for the same reasons.

@Front242: I see that you're still trying to make insinuations on other threads: https://www.tennisfrontier.com/tenn...rs-2018-ohio-us-atp-masters-1000.6147/page-19
I really don't think you get to do that until you answer me here. Own the thing, both of you, or stop making cheap insinuations. Please.