Monte Carlo Rolex Masters 2021, Monaco, ATP Masters 1000

[MargaretMcAleer]

The players and the experts say that Lenglen is slower, because the way it is built it tends to retain moisture.

intresting read on rafa and chatrier court dimensions

http://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/tennis/how-one-court-at-roland-garros-helps-rafael-nadal-dominate-french-open/2015/05/30/c65a61d2-070d-11e5-bc72-f3e16bf50bb6_story.html?postshare=6441433134084140 PARIS – Nine - time French Open champion Rafael Nadal is the King of Clay for many...

tt.tennis-warehouse.com

MC is on the sea, so the air is always going to be humid, and therefore the courts rather slow. However, with the cold this year, and the wind, they may have played quicker.

Slower on Lenglen when did that happen

 

[MargaretMcAleer]

Funny, I just posted a link that Lenglen retains moisture and therefore plays slower. Who ever knows? But you have been there.

Yes many times ,player 's say they can tell the difference asap,it has always been fast...also the back of the court is much more smaller than Chatrier.Chatrier is high bouncing,Lenglen is say slower in that regard.
Yes Rafa prefers to play on Chatrier.
I will watch with interest then with matches on Lenglen this year.,though in saying that,being there live is an easier task.

 

[Front242]

Well, there was Gaston Gaudio in 2003. I'm having a hard time thinking of another. Rafa was definitely having a bad day, but Rublev was terrific. Even when he lost the 2nd set, he kept up the pace and the belief.

Tennis.com just posted this "The Russian became the first player in 16 years to beat Rafa in their first meeting on clay."

 

[El Dude]

It kind of has started, and Rublev isn't that "lessor." There is that slow attrition, more bad days, but I like to think that it also has to do with Rublev being an up-and-comer, too. Djokovic and Nadal both came in less than match fit, and they are in their early-mid 30s, so upsets start to happen. But with Rublev, Tsitsipas and Ruud still in, that says good things for the future. Not to knock Evans, but he is a bit of an outlier in the group.

Hi Moxie. By lesser, I mean historically - and Rublev certainly is and always will be. That's kind of my point: these "super elites" eventually start showing cracks, and lesser greats, elites, second tier guys, or just the random top 100 player having a great day, start beating them.

Part of aging, as you say, is attritional - it is harder to get to match fitness, and the aches and pains start adding up. We all grow old, after all!

Of course this match meant far more to Rublev than it does for Rafa, both in the short and long term. I see no reason to think that Rafa can't rise to the level he needs to win Roland Garros, but the chances that he's vulnerable enough for someone to beat him are greater than they were a decade ago.

 

[Moxie]

Yes many times ,player 's say they can tell the difference asap,it has always been fast...also the back of the court is much more smaller than Chatrier.Chatrier is high bouncing,Lenglen is say slower in that regard.
Yes Rafa prefers to play on Chatrier.
I will watch with interest then with matches on Lenglen this year.,though in saying that,being there live is an easier task.

I honestly never quite understand how we can tell court speed by watching on TV. Any tips on what to look for? I also think that people tend to forget the effect of weather on outdoor courts, particularly the natural surfaces. The surface is not just one thing...it is susceptible to changes.

 

[Moxie]

Tennis.com just posted this "The Russian became the first player in 16 years to beat Rafa in their first meeting on clay."

I had to look that up. Rafa lost to Igor Andreev (blast from the past) in their first meeting ever, in Valencia in 2005. QF.

 

[MargaretMcAleer]

I honestly never quite understand how we can tell court speed by watching on TV. Any tips on what to look for? I also think that people tend to forget the effect of weather on outdoor courts, particularly the natural surfaces. The surface is not just one thing...it is susceptible to changes.

The weather is the main factor,it can change the conditions of outdoor surfaces,I don't have any tips,though I do have a large flat screen TV which helps at times,which helps say on clay you can see the amount of spin the court is having or not.

 

[Moxie]

Hi Moxie. By lesser, I mean historically - and Rublev certainly is and always will be. That's kind of my point: these "super elites" eventually start showing cracks, and lesser greats, elites, second tier guys, or just the random top 100 player having a great day, start beating them.

Part of aging, as you say, is attritional - it is harder to get to match fitness, and the aches and pains start adding up. We all grow old, after all!

Of course this match meant far more to Rublev than it does for Rafa, both in the short and long term. I see no reason to think that Rafa can't rise to the level he needs to win Roland Garros, but the chances that he's vulnerable enough for someone to beat him are greater than they were a decade ago.

Hi, El Dude! Agreed, to all. (Reminds me of Eliot: "I grow old, I grow old, I shall wear the bottoms of my trousers rolled...." Sorry, momentary and gratuitous insert of poetry.) I hope it doesn't seem insulting to say that it is obvious that they are more vulnerable to upset than 10 years ago. They are. The bad days come more often, the sense of the opportunities slipping causes more stress than when they swung freely in their salad days. But the truth is, they focus on the Majors, at this point. No one is going to care much if Novak or Rafa has the most MS1000s. Jon Wertheim addressed this in his Sports Illustrated mailbag a few weeks back. He said just ask Diego Schwartzman, who upset Rafa in Rome last fall, then lost to him in straights a couple of weeks later at RG. Until hoi polloi can beat the big 3 at Majors, this is still just baby steps. Like you, I keep looking for the youngsters to step up, but they are still just making incremental inroads. Beat Rafa at RG or Novak at AO, then I'll be impressed.

 

[Jelenafan]

What this does for Rublev is potentially huge, going forward he can reason “ Hey I beat Rafa on red clay, I can do this...”

But yes, doing it best of five at Roland Garos is a whole different matter.

The young bucks have all beaten Novak in HC , but both Theim and Medvedev wilted in the finals versus Novak at the AO, ditto Theim has done it several times to Rafa on clay but to have the brass ones to snatch Roland Garos is another matter.

With age, I don’t think Rafa is going to sweep through 3-4 red clay tournament wins without breaking a sweat before RG as in his salad days, in 2019 he did fairly badly before righting the ship in Paris.

However Rafa’s serving woes did give me pause, that was probably the worst serving I’ve seen him do on clay ever. Abysmal. It was Zverevesque.

 

[Moxie]

However Rafa’s serving woes did give me pause, that was probably the worst serving I’ve seen him do on clay ever. Abysmal. It was Zverevesque.

 

[Moxie]

What this does for Rublev is potentially huge, going forward he can reason “ Hey I beat Rafa on red clay, I can do this...”

But yes, doing it best of five at Roland Garos is a whole different matter.

The young bucks have all beaten Novak in HC , but both Theim and Medvedev wilted in the finals versus Novak at the AO, ditto Theim has done it several times to Rafa on clay but to have the brass ones to snatch Roland Garos is another matter.

With age, I don’t think Rafa is going to sweep through 3-4 red clay tournament wins without breaking a sweat before RG as in his salad days, in 2019 he did fairly badly before righting the ship in Paris.

However Rafa’s serving woes did give me pause, that was probably the worst serving I’ve seen him do on clay ever. Abysmal. It was Zverevesque.

Mediocre serving on clay has never been Rafa's biggest problem, though he was far worse than mediocre today. But usually he can back it up with his ground game, which was also MIA. If he doesn't serve this bad going forward, and jeepers, one would hope not! then he'll be fine. It's the UFEs that he needs to clean up. His CCBH was falling very short. He needs matches and confidence.

I don't care if Rafa doesn't win any of the tune-ups, as long as he's primed for RG.

But I do agree that this has to do Rublev's confidence a world of good. I agree with all of those who say he's one of the most dangerous and potential guys on the rise. Great win for him today. He totally held his nerve in the 3rd. I hate to mention the Medvedev collapse in his 2019 WTF match v Nadal, but these guys do get spoken of in the same breath. Medvedev's game is more interesting, and Rublev pretty much just bludgeons the ball. But Andrey has the better head, for sure. He says it's Rafa he admires, but to me his game is more like Novak's. He hits hard, deep, he aims for the corners, and increasingly, he rarely misses. He's my pick to win the tournament.

 

[the AntiPusher]

Mediocre serving on clay has never been Rafa's biggest problem, though he was far worse than mediocre today. But usually he can back it up with his ground game, which was also MIA. If he doesn't serve this bad going forward, and jeepers, one would hope not! then he'll be fine. It's the UFEs that he needs to clean up. His CCBH was falling very short. He needs matches and confidence.

I don't care if Rafa doesn't win any of the tune-ups, as long as he's primed for RG.

But I do agree that this has to do Rublev's confidence a world of good. I agree with all of those who say he's one of the most dangerous and potential guys on the rise. Great win for him today. He totally held his nerve in the 3rd. I hate to mention the Medvedev collapse in his 2019 WTF match v Nadal, but these guys do get spoken of in the same breath. Medvedev's game is more interesting, and Rublev pretty much just bludgeons the ball. But Andrey has the better head, for sure. He says it's Rafa he admires, but to me his game is more like Novak's. He hits hard, deep, he aims for the corners, and increasingly, he rarely misses. He's my pick to win the tournament.

Again, MC, Barcelona Madrid and Roma( Rome) are not the Goal..it's Always and only RG..they are nice to have but at this point it's #21 and RG

 

[El Dude]

Hi, El Dude! Agreed, to all. (Reminds me of Eliot: "I grow old, I grow old, I shall wear the bottoms of my trousers rolled...." Sorry, momentary and gratuitous insert of poetry.) I hope it doesn't seem insulting to say that it is obvious that they are more vulnerable to upset than 10 years ago. They are. The bad days come more often, the sense of the opportunities slipping causes more stress than when they swung freely in their salad days. But the truth is, they focus on the Majors, at this point. No one is going to care much if Novak or Rafa has the most MS1000s. Jon Wertheim addressed this in his Sports Illustrated mailbag a few weeks back. He said just ask Diego Schwartzman, who upset Rafa in Rome last fall, then lost to him in straights a couple of weeks later at RG. Until hoi polloi can beat the big 3 at Majors, this is still just baby steps. Like you, I keep looking for the youngsters to step up, but they are still just making incremental inroads. Beat Rafa at RG or Novak at AO, then I'll be impressed.

Not insulting at all - it is just one of those obvious points that we need to remind ourselves of because Rafa and Novak are still on top at ages 34 and 33.

And yes, for those two it is all about the Slams. I agree that beating them on their home turf would be hugely impressive, and perhaps only then will the eras shift. Since 2011, when Novak reached is peak form, only Stan has beaten an in-form Novak at AO (with apologies to Istomin and Chung; that version of Novak was not prime Novak). For Rafa, since 2005 it has only really been Soderling; Novak beat him, but Rafa wasn't vintage.

One thought that came to mind is that there is some similarity between the guys that beat Rafa and Novak. Both Soderling and Wawrinka were "second tier" guys who were pushing for a place in the elite and, for a time (especially Stan) were coeval with the Big Four (Soderling didn't quite get there, but Stan was a fearsome opponent there for a few years, especially 2014-16).

The point being, it might take something similar to Soderling in 2009 or Stan in 2014 to beat Rafa or Novak at a Slam, or at least RG and AO, respectively. At least right now and for the foreseeable future. I'm not sure who that might be. Thiem had the best shot vs Rafa and has fallen far short. Medvedev vs Novak, but he also got blown away.

But at some point it will happen.

Right?

 

[napo]

And today. Who knew that Evans was going to turn into a clay monster? (LOL.) Actually, he changed his tactics to more aggressive and more HC after he dropped the first set, and got trickier than Goffin. I'm loving his run. Looks more like a lorry driver than a tennis player. They also said he comes from a family of squash players and started in squash, himself. That's why so much slice and such a good feel at net.

lorry driver!!!!!! Fantastic.
And I agree with everything you wrote.
Haha I still can’t get over the lorry driver. Thx for minutes of pure laughing.

 

[napo]

That is TOO funny, you rude old thing! Both Djokovic and Nadal had a load of UFE's in their losses, so that's uncharacteristic, and I agree it has no bearing on how RG will go. But I do think that Djokovic needs a plan B for windy days. He lets it bother him and he doesn't adjust. It's not like he can't play with topspin. Murray once got his ass kicked by Rafa in a final at IW on a terribly windy day, and when he played Berdych in a SF at the USO, he had made the adjustment. He won that match because he handled the wind better. And he beat Novak in the final that year (2012) for mostly the same reason.

And he beated Federer in the SF of RG 2019, under very windy bizarre conditions.

 

[don_fabio]

Seeing what it takes to beat even this version of Nadal on clay I doubt Novak can to any damage to him in RG if they meet. Surely last year is the proof of that, but even if Novak comes in better form and better state of mind than last year it seems like he don't have any weapons anymore to hurt Nadal on clay.

Nadal's only weakness that is becoming a little more obvious is his fitness and maybe nerves when it gets tough. He does get tired these days as the match goes on and if someone is able to get in 30 shot rallies with him for 3-4 hours then that guy might have some chance, but where is that guy?

Thiem is nowhere to be found, Rublev had a great win yesterday but that is far from being a threat at RG, Novak unable to grind with Nadal on clay anymore, Tsitsipas barely beat Nadal on HC don't think he has a chance on clay. Others are not even worth mentioning at this moment.

 

[napo]

Seeing what it takes to beat even this version of Nadal on clay I doubt Novak can to any damage to him in RG if they meet. Surely last year is the proof of that, but even if Novak comes in better form and better state of mind than last year it seems like he don't have any weapons anymore to hurt Nadal on clay.

Nadal's only weakness that is becoming a little more obvious is his fitness and maybe nerves when it gets tough. He does get tired these days as the match goes on and if someone is able to get in 30 shot rallies with him for 3-4 hours then that guy might have some chance, but where is that guy?

Thiem is nowhere to be found, Rublev had a great win yesterday but that is far from being a threat at RG, Novak unable to grind with Nadal on clay anymore, Tsitsipas barely beat Nadal on HC don't think he has a chance on clay. Others are not even worth mentioning at this moment.

The only two names are Djokovic and Thiem in their best shape and mental condition. No one else.
Right now, they aren’t near to the needed level, but Nadal isn’t also on his near unbeatable level.
The ultimate answer can only be given in Paris.

 

[Moxie]

And he beated Federer in the SF of RG 2019, under very windy bizarre conditions.

Actually, I was talking about Murray. He took a lesson from Rafa when Nadal beat him in 2009 in the Indian Wells final in a brutal win, 6-1, 6-2, and he became a better wind player, which eventually led to his first Major at the USO. I'm saying that Novak could find a strategy for wind, too. Because just getting crabby at it and throwing racquets around isn't working so well for him.

 

[napo]

It seems that Tsitsipas is bringing Evans back to reality. Slice isn’t working like in the two previous matches.

 

[napo]

Quick job done by Tsitsipas. He could be a factor this clay season, he is already in good shape, i guess he will get even better till RG.