General Doping/PEDs Discussion

[don_fabio]

We do not want to get rid of you!

No worries, I'm here to stay.

I remember that post, too, and it was illuminating. I can understand a Balkan attitude of "us against the world." Also, of the notion that, if you comply with the rules, you're a sucker. That's called "cynicism," and is not unique to the Balkans.

Yes, this appears in many areas and countries in the world. Just in Italy, as an example, I was told it is a big difference how people think and behave in the north compared to the south. I think they are more inclined to break the law and navigate outside of the system in the south. I know in my country people from the south they even take pride when they bend the rules to their liking or even break the law, they will even speak openly about it to the friends and family, it's a normal thing, like catching a bird fly or watching the sun rise.

One good example is the properties tax. You are supposed to pay tax if you have extra property that you rent to tenants, but lots of people don't pay this, because the tax guys are sloppy and they are swarmed with papers and there is not enough of them, so people take the chance and evade it.

Similar with renting for tourists, people do all kind of monkey business to evade the taxes, even skimming the earning numbers just to not fall in the category in which you end up paying something to the government. The system is corrupt from top to bottom and the best way to navigate such territory is by doing what others are doing, you cheat and lie. If politicians are doing, why not me then?

There is stuff you have to pay to the government, but you do it only if there is no other way. This corruption is also rooted in the socialist and communist system of which Croatia was part of from 1945-1991. Luckily we had a "light version" of communism as our leader at that time, Tito, he was playing a game with West and East in which Yugoslavia benefited in many ways. Actually most older folks like my parents look happily back to these 'pre 1991 war' times as the best times ever. People were getting flats from the government, paid vacation every year...but still if you spoke against the system at that time, you could be sent to our version of gulag which was Goli Otok (Naked Island), there is just rocks there and a prison.

I was thinking of my years living in Italy. (Close your ears, Margaret!) When a system is corrupt, (in Italy, most especially but not exclusively by the Mafia,) and rules/laws are routinely bent/broken, perfectly normal people think nothing of operating outside of the system. This could be an old notion of Italy, but not from the very distant past, and I think it still holds. I have no idea if the systems in the Balkans feel "corrupt" to their citizens, but I recognize the notion of "good guys finish last." (And not to absolve my own people: NYers and New Jerseyians are cynical for similar reasons, as are Louisianans, to name a few.)

I can't think of the average Dane, German, British or American to cheat the system in such ways that I described above as they will most likely get caught. Most importantly they would not even think in such a way. Their brains are calibrated differently, they follow the system because they believe in the system and more often than not a system proves to be working fine for the people.

Back to Novak again, it feels like he is fighting the system as it is his enemy and many times it looks like this. He takes a fighting stance which then turns out to be too agressive and the whole drama starts over and over again. Like a Don Quihote (did I spell it right, probably not) and it's hard to win against the windmills, but he takes pride in this like the fellow knight from the book.

 

[don_fabio]

This is what I'm thinking...Novak gets a finely calculated series of things to get his metabolites, electrolytes, etc, working just right. Fully herbal or WADA approved, or whatever. But what will get sold to the consumer will be a fancy Gatorade. If you ask me. And what has taken so long?!

They have troubles sourcing enough of spirulina. As it turns out, Novak's drink has created a world's shortage of this nutrient rich algae.

 

[Moxie]

No worries, I'm here to stay.


Yes, this appears in many areas and countries in the world. Just in Italy, as an example, I was told it is a big difference how people think and behave in the north compared to the south. I think they are more inclined to break the law and navigate outside of the system in the south. I know in my country people from the south they even take pride when they bend the rules to their liking or even break the law, they will even speak openly about it to the friends and family, it's a normal thing, like catching a bird fly or watching the sun rise.

One good example is the properties tax. You are supposed to pay tax if you have extra property that you rent to tenants, but lots of people don't pay this, because the tax guys are sloppy and they are swarmed with papers and there is not enough of them, so people take the chance and evade it.

Similar with renting for tourists, people do all kind of monkey business to evade the taxes, even skimming the earning numbers just to not fall in the category in which you end up paying something to the government. The system is corrupt from top to bottom and the best way to navigate such territory is by doing what others are doing, you cheat and lie. If politicians are doing, why not me then?

There is stuff you have to pay to the government, but you do it only if there is no other way. This corruption is also rooted in the socialist and communist system of which Croatia was part of from 1945-1991. Luckily we had a "light version" of communism as our leader at that time, Tito, he was playing a game with West and East in which Yugoslavia benefited in many ways. Actually most older folks like my parents look happily back to these 'pre 1991 war' times as the best times ever. People were getting flats from the government, paid vacation every year...but still if you spoke against the system at that time, you could be sent to our version of gulag which was Goli Otok (Naked Island), there is just rocks there and a prison.


I can't think of the average Dane, German, British or American to cheat the system in such ways that I described above as they will most likely get caught. Most importantly they would not even think in such a way. Their brains are calibrated differently, they follow the system because they believe in the system and more often than not a system proves to be working fine for the people.

Back to Novak again, it feels like he is fighting the system as it is his enemy and many times it looks like this. He takes a fighting stance which then turns out to be too agressive and the whole drama starts over and over again. Like a Don Quihote (did I spell it right, probably not) and it's hard to win against the windmills, but he takes pride in this like the fellow knight from the book.

Personally, I don't like the Quixote comparison...Don Quixote (or "Quijote" in Spanish, FYI) is the exact opposite of a cynic. But, OK, Novak does have his own notions of the world, and he comes at the "windmills" often brandishing a lance, it's true. In any case, you elevated the conversation by inserting a great work of literature!

As to the Italians, if you believe the northerners are more honest than the southerners, you must have been told that by a northern Italian. (LOL.) They like to believe so. The richer north just left the south to their poverty and bullying at the hands of the Mafia, and so can put a better sheen on it, but the distrust of authority is ubiquitous it Italy, and, so, therefore, the scoffing of laws. The ways are very similar to what you describe in your area of the world, along with the same attitude. Your point that much of Northern Europe and the US wouldn't even think like this is well-taken. A quick story: when I was living in Turin, I stayed for a time with my good friend's parents, and became particularly close to her mother. They were very elegant, upper-middle class people. As they were preparing a trip to the US, the mother told me, matter-of-factly, and proudly, that she'd bought dollars on the black market at an excellent exchange rate. I was completely shocked! My own parents (and I, myself,) would have considered flying to the moon before accessing a black market, or even knowing how to find one. Your cultural difference in a nutshell.

All of this to say, it was interesting this insight that you gave us into the Balkan mentality, which is why @Kieran brought it back. It helps explain a certain notion that the system is rigged, and you have to game it, or it will game you. I roped in the Italians as a way of saying that it's not unique to the Balkans. A bit of solidarity.

 

[Moxie]

They have troubles sourcing enough of spirulina. As it turns out, Novak's drink has created a world's shortage of this nutrient rich algae.

Seriously? Only Novak is drinking it, right now. Maybe Novak should create a farm in Serbia. It's farmed in the US.

Not to be snide, but if he's manufacturing it to the point of a worldwide shortage, then he's ready to roll it out. (Margaret says he is?) I still ask the question: if it's shelf-stable, then why does his team have to mix it up every time? Spirulina is VERY green, and not all of his drinks are that green. Personally, I think what they're going to market is some expensive form of Gatorade, and not exactly what he gets, since they mix it specially, all the time. Not saying that it's anything more than what is allowed, but I'm just thinking that what is going out to the market is one version. Probably what is taking so long is that they're trying to make it taste less than terrible!

 

[don_fabio]

A quick story: when I was living in Turin, I stayed for a time with my good friend's parents, and became particularly close to her mother. They were very elegant, upper-middle class people. As they were preparing a trip to the US, the mother told me, matter-of-factly, and proudly, that she'd bought dollars on the black market at an excellent exchange rate. I was completely shocked! My own parents (and I, myself,) would have considered flying to the moon before accessing a black market, or even knowing how to find one. Your cultural difference in a nutshell.

This story brings memories of how the black market money exchange was done before in my area. It was so easy actually, probably somewhat similar to how lady in your story got it. There were these people located usually on the local market, call it a bazaar or whatever. So they pick a spot where lots of folks pass by and keep saying "marke marke" (Deutch Marks) or "cigarettes, cigarettes" and if you need what they have then you ask the exchange rate or the price for the cigarettes. You go then somewhere around the corner, a little bit away from the crowd, do the businness and proceed your way. The guy (or a woman) goes back to the spot and repeats the same words until the next customer approaches.

 

[don_fabio]

Seriously? Only Novak is drinking it, right now. Maybe Novak should create a farm in Serbia. It's farmed in the US.

Not to be snide, but if he's manufacturing it to the point of a worldwide shortage, then he's ready to roll it out. (Margaret says he is?) I still ask the question: if it's shelf-stable, then why does his team have to mix it up every time? Spirulina is VERY green, and not all of his drinks are that green. Personally, I think what they're going to market is some expensive form of Gatorade, and not exactly what he gets, since they mix it specially, all the time. Not saying that it's anything more than what is allowed, but I'm just thinking that what is going out to the market is one version. Probably what is taking so long is that they're trying to make it taste less than terrible!

Spirulina was meant to be a joke

But I agree with you about a fancy Gatorade. They will probably add a few marketing things to it, like vegan, eco friendly and made from sustainable sources. Maybe Jelena is behind this drink too, she's obsessed with food same as Novak, but if you ask me she looks like she needs to eat a few slices of pizza.

 

[Nadalfan2013]

Sorry I can't read all the posts... So, has Djokovic been banned from tennis yet? Are we heading towards a Lance Armstrong 2.0? Is the Djokovic charade finally over? Please do tell.

 

[Kieran]

Personally, I don't like the Quixote comparison...Don Quixote (or "Quijote" in Spanish, FYI) is the exact opposite of a cynic. But, OK, Novak does have his own notions of the world, and he comes at the "windmills" often brandishing a lance, it's true. In any case, you elevated the conversation by inserting a great work of literature!

As to the Italians, if you believe the northerners are more honest than the southerners, you must have been told that by a northern Italian. (LOL.) They like to believe so. The richer north just left the south to their poverty and bullying at the hands of the Mafia, and so can put a better sheen on it, but the distrust of authority is ubiquitous it Italy, and, so, therefore, the scoffing of laws. The ways are very similar to what you describe in your area of the world, along with the same attitude. Your point that much of Northern Europe and the US wouldn't even think like this is well-taken. A quick story: when I was living in Turin, I stayed for a time with my good friend's parents, and became particularly close to her mother. They were very elegant, upper-middle class people. As they were preparing a trip to the US, the mother told me, matter-of-factly, and proudly, that she'd bought dollars on the black market at an excellent exchange rate. I was completely shocked! My own parents (and I, myself,) would have considered flying to the moon before accessing a black market, or even knowing how to find one. Your cultural difference in a nutshell.

All of this to say, it was interesting this insight that you gave us into the Balkan mentality, which is why @Kieran brought it back. It helps explain a certain notion that the system is rigged, and you have to game it, or it will game you. I roped in the Italians as a way of saying that it's not unique to the Balkans. A bit of solidarity.

I brought it up because I remembered that @don_fabio mentioned that the Balkan mentality also states that “I might also cheat and break some rules to gain advantage. We also have a saying you play by the book, you be a good guy and then you eat a shit.”

That struck me as very Novak, and I’ve always said he’d kill his granny to get the W. Rules are mere obstacles to him. We can see from how he’s reacting to the crowd now that even his Sally Field desperation to be liked was just another aspect of his selfishness. A need to be satisfied.

He has a distant relationship with the truth. He’s a fraud when it comes to all these nice guy manoeuvres. It wouldn’t surprise me in the slightest if he’s skipped tests before and not been held to account…

 

[kskate2]

Spirulina was meant to be a joke

But I agree with you about a fancy Gatorade. They will probably add a few marketing things to it, like vegan, eco friendly and made from sustainable sources. Maybe Jelena is behind this drink too, she's obsessed with food same as Novak, but if you ask me she looks like she needs to eat a few slices of pizza.

Add a cheeseburger and a milkshake baby...

 

[the AntiPusher]

W

Sorry I can't read all the posts... So, has Djokovic been banned from tennis yet? Are we heading towards a Lance Armstrong 2.0? Is the Djokovic charade finally over? Please do tell.

Who knows what the real deal with Novak's drug test! I think years from now we may know ....

 

[Moxie]

Who knows what the real deal with Novak's drug test! I think years from now we may know ....

Don't kid yourself. Test samples only last so long. Fedfans were hoping for years that Rafa would eventually come bad. Roger's rising from the dead in 2017 had its own questions. I believe they all do what is within the rules. Others believe that they all cheat, and the powers-that-be turn their heads. Novak might be better-advised to try to make things look less dodgy and weird, but that doesn't make him a doper.

 

[atttomole]

Don't kid yourself. Test samples only last so long. Fedfans were hoping for years that Rafa would eventually come bad. Roger's rising from the dead in 2017 had its own questions. I believe they all do what is within the rules. Others believe that they all cheat, and the powers-that-be turn their heads. Novak might be better-advised to try to make things look less dodgy and weird, but that doesn't make him a doper.

I don’t think Fed fans are hoping for any positive test results from Rafa’s samples. We know that Rafa’s physicality is unparalleled, but I can’t recall Fed fans insinuating that Rafa was taking PEDs. However, it looks like Rafa fans are hoping for ‘good news’ from Djokovic’s test samples.

 

[Moxie]

I don’t think Fed fans are hoping for any positive test results from Rafa’s samples. We know that Rafa’s physicality is unparalleled, but I can’t recall Fed fans insinuating that Rafa was taking PEDs. However, it looks like Rafa fans are hoping for ‘good news’ from Djokovic’s test samples.

You must not remember long arguments on the subject with DarthFed and Front. It wasn't even all insinuation...a lot of it was blatant accusation. Darth actually said that he was AS convinced that Roger never used PEDs as he was that Rafa has. There were others, but those 2 went at it long and hard and never gave up.

Clearly, not all Federer Fans, and I could have been more careful about that. Likewise, not all Nadal fans, I guess. Personally, I think he behaves oddly around certain things, and he has some loopy ideas, which has him huffing into bottles. Which he says will all be explained, but isn't. Then we were discussing the rules...was he "refusing" a test, or merely postponing it? Was he being treated preferentially because he's #1?

 

[Kieran]

I don’t think Fed fans are hoping for any positive test results from Rafa’s samples. We know that Rafa’s physicality is unparalleled, but I can’t recall Fed fans insinuating that Rafa was taking PEDs.

I think you might want to sit back and familiarise yourself with the thread you just wrote that in…

 

[the AntiPusher]

You must not remember long arguments on the subject with DarthFed and Front. It wasn't even all insinuation...a lot of it was blatant accusation. Darth actually said that he was AS convinced that Roger never used PEDs as he was that Rafa has. There were others, but those 2 went at it long and hard and never gave up.

Clearly, not all Federer Fans, and I could have been more careful about that. Likewise, not all Nadal fans, I guess. Personally, I think he behaves oddly around certain things, and he has some loopy ideas, which has him huffing into bottles. Which he says will all be explained, but isn't. Then we were discussing the rules...was he "refusing" a test, or merely postponing it? Was he being treated preferentially because he's #1?

DarthFed name still lives On.. bravo

 

[Nadalfan2013]

I’d say the odds that the big three have been on PEDs are Nadal 0%, Pederer 25% especially around 2017+, and Dopak Dopovic 100% from 2011+.

 

[atttomole]

You must not remember long arguments on the subject with DarthFed and Front. It wasn't even all insinuation...a lot of it was blatant accusation. Darth actually said that he was AS convinced that Roger never used PEDs as he was that Rafa has. There were others, but those 2 went at it long and hard and never gave up.

Clearly, not all Federer Fans, and I could have been more careful about that. Likewise, not all Nadal fans, I guess. Personally, I think he behaves oddly around certain things, and he has some loopy ideas, which has him huffing into bottles. Which he says will all be explained, but isn't. Then we were discussing the rules...was he "refusing" a test, or merely postponing it? Was he being treated preferentially because he's #1?

I will try to find Darthfed so that he can explain himself. As I remember, people were wondering why Nadal didn’t get tired easily. At 36, he was outlasting opponents 10 years his junior. On clay!!

 

[the AntiPusher]

I will try to find Darthfed so that he can explain himself. As I remember, people were wondering why Nadal didn’t get tired easily. At 36, he was outlasting opponents 10 years his junior. On clay!!

DarthFed may have perish when the Jedi destroyed the Death Star

 

[Kieran]

I will try to find Darthfed so that he can explain himself. As I remember, people were wondering why Nadal didn’t get tired easily. At 36, he was outlasting opponents 10 years his junior. On clay!!

Who was he outlasting at aged 36?

 

[atttomole]

Who was he outlasting at aged 36?

Ruud. is 12 years younger, as an example.