"Five Minutes Before the F-ing Match!"

El Dude

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Kieran said:
El Dude, answer Fiero with the "what if", that's what I was doing.

As for goat, I just said it isn't Rafa, now I'm saying it again. That's clear enough, isn't it? You're probably more offended that I don't think it's Roger, either...

I'm not "offended," but feel free to speculate, my friend!

As for the GOAT question, as of this moment I still think Roger has the edge - at least in the Open Era. The overall record is there. But Rafa could equal or surpass him yet.
 

Kieran

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I'm glad you're not offended. You seemed to be thinking I wasn't saying straight what I happened to say very straight. ;)

There is no goat, this why I don't think Rafa is, but it means a lot to Fedfans that Federer should be accepted as one. It's impossible to accept him as better than Rafa, and impossible to accept Rafa as better than everyone who ever played the sport.

There's not even a need to accept any of this, to enjoy them both, but I recognise the entitlement Fedfans feel to this goat stuff...
 

El Dude

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Kieran, I don't care whether you or anyone else considers Federer the GOAT. I'm sure some Fed fans feel that way--just as some Rafa fans seem dead-set on disproving that notion (ahem)--but it really doesn't stir me one way or the other what people think. As a tennis fan first and a Roger fan second, I do find the question heuristically interesting, though, and disagree with you that "there is no GOAT," or rather, I'm open to questioning whether there is or not (although as I have said before, it is GOATSF - with the added "So Far").
 

Fiero425

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Kieran said:
I'm glad you're not offended. You seemed to be thinking I wasn't saying straight what I happened to say very straight. ;)

There is no goat, this why I don't think Rafa is, but it means a lot to Fedfans that Federer should be accepted as one. It's impossible to accept him as better than Rafa, and impossible to accept Rafa as better than everyone who ever played the sport.

There's not even a need to accept any of this, to enjoy them both, but I recognise the entitlement Fedfans feel to this goat stuff...

No one's had the balance of a career as Federer regardless if you think he's the GOAT or not! I put more stock in Wimbledons and USO's; sorry! He has 7 W's and 5 USO's while Rafa has only 2 of each! The FO is a major, but has never had the status of the other 2; or reverence for that matter except to players who coveted the event and only had a chance there like an Andres Gomez in '90! Borg made his name at the FO, but his 5 straight Wimbledons put him on the world map and historically great! What hurt him the most was never acquiring even 1 USO; even when it was on clay! That tourney was his bugaboo and was terribly unlucky in so many ways; court change, Tanner serve in a night match, and of course a couple injuries ('77 defaulting to Stockman with bad shoulder)!
 

El Dude

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Fiero425 said:
I put more stock in Wimbledons and USO's; sorry! He has 7 W's and 5 USO's while Rafa has only 2 of each! The FO is a major, but has never had the status of the other 2; or reverence for that matter except to players who coveted the event and only had a chance there like an Andres Gomez in '90!

Fiero, you've said this before and I just don't see it. I mean, I get that Wimbledon has always been the most prestigious event, but in my mind the FO and USO have been roughly similar for most of history. Obviously the AO was less highly regarded until the late 80s or 90s, and may even still be a slight tick below the other three, but the FO is certainly on par with the USO, especially in the relevant time-frame.

(Or are you a secret Sampras fan? :p)
 

Kieran

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El Dude said:
Kieran, I don't care whether you or anyone else considers Federer the GOAT. I'm sure some Fed fans feel that way--just as some Rafa fans seem dead-set on disproving that notion (ahem)--but it really doesn't stir me one way or the other what people think. As a tennis fan first and a Roger fan second, I do find the question heuristically interesting, though, and disagree with you that "there is no GOAT," or rather, I'm open to questioning whether there is or not (although as I have said before, it is GOATSF - with the added "So Far").

Well, the added "so far" is crucial, isn't it, since the initials stand for "greatest of ALL time", which presumably includes the unknown future. ;)

You may notice how a discussion that began with a proposition by Fiero that Rafa was slow in getting to 14, within two or three posts the Fedfan brought up the word "goat." Then in your first post you had to mention how "Roger is the greatest generalist", and so on.

This sort of stuff is something Fedfans feel we should all accept, but it's a nonsense. There is no Goat, there can only be the best of their own time. The reason why there's no goat is because there is no acceptable criteria for electing one, and players from one era faced different opponents and conditions to players of another.

It makes for good topics, but I think it's usually propaganda...
 

El Dude

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Yeah, fans are biased - thus the propaganda. But 'ware your own as well, my friend! You keep accusing Federer fans of propaganda, of positing certain views in order to prop up their hero, but are you not doing the same to some degree?

Anyhow, to me the term "GOAT" can only ever mean "so far" - without that it is meaningless as the future hasn't happened yet, so therefore I don't think it is necessary to add it; thus GOAT inherently means "so far" to anyone using it. So the future thing is a bit of a red herring, imo, as no one ever uses it that way.

Note that I also mentioned Rafa as the greatest specialist, which you conveniently ignored! Rafa is clearly the greatest clay court player of all time, right? I would also say he's the greatest specialist of any kind. But as Fiero rightly points out, he doesn't have the same degree of dominance on hard and grass courts (although still an excellent record).

I also disagree with your reasoning as to why there can never be a GOAT. Certainly what you say makes it more complex, but what we can do is compare relative dominance across eras. How dominant was Sampras during his era vs. Federer in his? What about Borg vs. Nadal?

Part of the problem is that there is very little good statistical analysis of tennis unlike baseball and, to a lesser degree, other sports. Numerous systems have been designed for baseball--the ultimate stat fetishism sport--to compare players across eras, and the better (and more recent) ones adjust for context. Not just era, but ballpark and other factors. But it is still evolving and, like Zeno's arrow, will never reach its goal of the Perfect System.

There is always going to be a subjective gap, but I'm comfortable with that. In fact, that allows for debate. But tennis needs more objectivity, in my opinion, more statistical analysis. Hopefully some enterprising nerd will come along and get the work done! :p
 

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Buddy, "dominance" is a relative term: Pete was #1 six years straight. After stating this, then we get into spin.

Facts are cold. They show no appreciation for what happened. They only say that it happened. You can't number crunch these things, because if you did, you'd have to say that Laver is goat. Then after looking at this, we'd look elsewhere. For Fedfans, it usually ends up with Federer.

For the rest of us, it usually doesn't.

As for bias and propaganda, all I stated is a statistic: it took Rafa 38 majors to get his 14th, and it took Federer 41. This was in reply to Fiero, who said Rafa was slow in getting there. I'm still waiting, amid all the goat stuff, for him to say, yeah, Rafa got there fairly quick too... ;)
 

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El Dude said:
Fiero425 said:
I put more stock in Wimbledons and USO's; sorry! He has 7 W's and 5 USO's while Rafa has only 2 of each! The FO is a major, but has never had the status of the other 2; or reverence for that matter except to players who coveted the event and only had a chance there like an Andres Gomez in '90!

Fiero, you've said this before and I just don't see it. I mean, I get that Wimbledon has always been the most prestigious event, but in my mind the FO and USO have been roughly similar for most of history. Obviously the AO was less highly regarded until the late 80s or 90s, and may even still be a slight tick below the other three, but the FO is certainly on par with the USO, especially in the relevant time-frame.

(Or are you a secret Sampras fan? :p)

People don't skip the USO while the FO has had on many occasion turned into #3 in the minds and heart of the ATP and WTA; sorry! Even Borg and Lendl skipped it sometimes for different reasons! Before Fed came along, I actually did have Sampras as an honorary GOAT; even w/o a FO! He was like Roger in the respect of having a well balance career with several titles from the other majors including the Masters!
 

El Dude

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See, now you're twisting what I'm saying, Kieran. I am not saying that we should ONLY look at facts, but that we need more statistical analysis to balance subjectivity.

By the way, you do realize that not just Fedfans think Roger is the GOAT, right? Most lists I've seen put him on top - or are you saying this is all just a Fedfan conspiracy?

And yeah, there's a very good argument for Rod Laver as the GOAT and I'm not entirely certain he isn't. It gets tricky with the Pro Slams, though, so it is easier to split at the Open Era. Actually, I was doing some preliminary research for a GOAT blog some time ago and I decided that we really need to look at tennis in (at least) three pretty distinct eras:

1877-1925 - from the first Wimbledon to beginning of the pro tour
1926-1968 - pro tour to Open Era
1968 - present - Open Era

Laver's career was largely in that middle segment and I'd say he's the greatest of that era, with Rosewall second and Gonzales third. Bill Tilden was the greatest in the first era, and in the third we have Roger, Rafa, Pete and maybe Bjorn as the main contenders.

And yeah, Fiero is unbalanced in his view - which makes him a good counterpoint for you! P)
 

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El Dude said:
And yeah, Fiero is unbalanced in his view - which makes him a good counterpoint for you! P)

Thanks for that.

I'm glad you admit it gets tricky. When you realise it gets too tricky, you'll get what I mean...
 

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Fiero425 said:
People don't skip the USO while the FO has had on many occasion turned into #3 in the minds and heart of the ATP and WTA; sorry! Even Borg and Lendl skipped it sometimes for different reasons! Before Fed came along, I actually did have Sampras as an honorary GOAT; even w/o a FO! He was like Roger in the respect of having a well balance career with several titles from the other majors including the Masters!

This may have been true at some point, but no longer - and certainly not for the span of Roger and Rafa's careers.

By the way, the only French Opens that Lendl missed were in 1990 and '91, when he was starting to slip. I'm not sure why he missed them, but his first daughter was born on May 4, with the tournament starting just three weeks later. Even if that wasn't the reason, it was later in his career.

As for Borg, he only missed one FO in 1977. According to Wikipedia he skipped it because of a contract with the World Team Tennis. Don't know much about it, but we're talking one missed FO.

Anyhow, certainly some players in the 70s-90s missed French Opens perhaps more often than Wimbledon and the US Open, but not so much over the last 20 years or so.
 

El Dude

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Kieran said:
El Dude said:
And yeah, Fiero is unbalanced in his view - which makes him a good counterpoint for you! P)

Thanks for that.

I'm glad you admit it gets tricky. When you realise it gets too tricky, you'll get what I mean...

No, not at all. I get what you mean but I don't think you understand where I'm coming from, which is more of a philosophical position and even temperament.

Let me put it this way. In my opinion, there is no grand or ultimate or final philosophical/scientific map or framework that will ever completely or even adequately explain reality. But it sure is fun to try! It is like making castles out of sand or Tibetan sand paintings - they're not meant to be permanent and final, but just expressions of a moment.

So when I ask questions like "who is the GOAT?" I'm not looking for a final and definitive answer that will end all debate. I'm simply approaching the question because it is there, and because it is fun to question and try to come up with answers - all the while realizing that any answer I come up with is not The Answer.

(But the tricky thing is when one thinks that "there is no answer" is The Answer, which is what I think you're doing a bit).
 

Kieran

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Fiero425 said:
People don't skip the USO while the FO has had on many occasion turned into #3 in the minds and heart of the ATP and WTA; sorry! Even Borg and Lendl skipped it sometimes for different reasons! Before Fed came along, I actually did have Sampras as an honorary GOAT; even w/o a FO! He was like Roger in the respect of having a well balance career with several titles from the other majors including the Masters!

That's slightly slanted, Fiero: Lendl skipped the FO because he wanted to prepare for Wimbledon. If he had enough USO's and it came just before the FO, he'd have skipped the USO to get his hands on the FO - if that was all he was lacking from his CV.

Good point on Borg! He skipped the FO for cash tourneys in America. So the slams weren't so big a deal back then. How do we factor this into what we know, when we analyse goats? To Borg, and Evert - the FO became secondary to their needs. Did they ever consider it to be lesser than Wimbledon? There's no evidence that they did. They might easily have skipped Wimbledon too, if there was money across the Atlantic to win.

And lots of clay courters have skipped Wimbledon, considering it inferior to the French...
 

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El Dude said:
Fiero425 said:
People don't skip the USO while the FO has had on many occasion turned into #3 in the minds and heart of the ATP and WTA; sorry! Even Borg and Lendl skipped it sometimes for different reasons! Before Fed came along, I actually did have Sampras as an honorary GOAT; even w/o a FO! He was like Roger in the respect of having a well balance career with several titles from the other majors including the Masters!

This may have been true at some point, but no longer - and certainly not for the span of Roger and Rafa's careers.

By the way, the only French Opens that Lendl missed were in 1990 and '91, when he was starting to slip. I'm not sure why he missed them, but his first daughter was born on May 4, with the tournament starting just three weeks later. Even if that wasn't the reason, it was later in his career.

As for Borg, he only missed one FO in 1977. According to Wikipedia he skipped it because of a contract with the World Team Tennis. Don't know much about it, but we're talking one missed FO.

Anyhow, certainly some players in the 70s-90s missed French Opens perhaps more often than Wimbledon and the US Open, but not so much over the last 20 years or so.

Believe me I know those dates very well and Lendl skipped to get more practice on grass; nothing mysterious about it! He even won Queens taking out Edberg and Becker respectively in semi and final one year! It wasn't that he was slipping! He very well could have won one or 2 more, but decided to bypass the slow clay of RG! That's the way people thought about the surface back then; detriment to Wimbledon aspirations! Heaven knows it hurt Edberg in '89 just making the final! He went out meekly to Becker in that subsequent Wimbledon final! :nono :angel:
 

Kieran

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El Dude said:
Kieran said:
El Dude said:
And yeah, Fiero is unbalanced in his view - which makes him a good counterpoint for you! P)

Thanks for that.

I'm glad you admit it gets tricky. When you realise it gets too tricky, you'll get what I mean...

No, not at all. I get what you mean but I don't think you understand where I'm coming from, which is more of a philosophical position and even temperament.

Let me put it this way. In my opinion, there is no grand or ultimate or final philosophical/scientific map or framework that will ever completely or even adequately explain reality. But it sure is fun to try! It is like making castles out of sand or Tibetan sand paintings - they're not meant to be permanent and final, but just expressions of a moment.

So when I ask questions like "who is the GOAT?" I'm not looking for a final and definitive answer that will end all debate. I'm simply approaching the question because it is there, and because it is fun to question and try to come up with answers - all the while realizing that any answer I come up with is not The Answer.

(But the tricky thing is when one thinks that "there is no answer" is The Answer, which is what I think you're doing a bit).

Come off it, El Dude - "more of a philosophical position and even temperament." :laydownlaughing :clap

You're putting a skirt on it now, and enticing me to peek. You're not really putting any philosophy on it at all: you're trying to find ways of spinning things. That's just pseudo-talk, all this "there is no Answer but the answer" and so forth. It's fortune cookie stuff, which goes well with your Tibetan reference. ;)

You believe in goats. I think that to conclude the space is filled when there is no space at all to fill is philosophically unsound and evidence of an uneven temperament... ;)
 

El Dude

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I guess that just went over your head.

(By the way, I didn't say I have a more philosophical position and even temperament than you, but that my view is informed by my philosophy and temperament - talk about a tower of babel).
 

Kieran

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El Dude said:
I guess that just went over your head.

(By the way, I didn't say I have a more philosophical position and even temperament than you, but that my view is informed by my philosophy and temperament - talk about a tower of babel).

No, it went right into my head and sounded like a whole load of stuff I've heard and read many times before... ;)
 

El Dude

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I'll let this one rest, although it seems clear to me that you aren't getting what I'm saying because you end up with "You believe in a GOAT." That's not at all what I'm saying. I'm saying I agree with you, that it is ultimately impossible--or at least very, very difficult to define--but that it is still worthwhile and interesting to talk about. Think of it as more like art rather than science; art as expressing a symbolic truth rather than scientifically looking for a literal fact. That is what I mean by my philosophical approach and temperament.

But if you want to be POed and think that I'm just trying to push the Fedfan agenda, go right ahead and be happy in your delusion. :cool:
 

Kieran

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You're too uptight about this, buddy. You're not agreeing with me at all, because you believe in a goat -so far. I don't believe in such a thing. There's the best of their own time, and that's our lot. The rest of it is spin - symbolic or otherwise. ;)

But you're right, it always starts a good row... :laydownlaughing