Federer, Nadal, and the question of GOATness in general...

[Federberg]

One thing I do agree with is that the GOAT in individual sports is easier to determine than team sports. However, even in individual sports it is not always cut and dry and tennis is one of those with pre-open era players as well as the fact the AO was not a priority for top players until the mid 80's or later.

I don't follow golf enough to know if things have changed to affect the comparison of Woods to Nicklaus and earlier golfers but I am still surprised so many consider Woods greater. I think the word "better" is more fitting since Woods is far behind in majors and probably isn't catching up but again I don't follow golf.

Team sport GOAT's is very hard to determine usually. The fact Jordan is considered by an overwhelming majority to be the greatest basketball player shows how amazing he was. Yes there are some that will say it's someone else but there aren't many. Football doesn't really have a GOAT though Brady probably gets the nod for quarterbacks and many would say Jerry Rice as an overall player but QB is way more important than WR or any other position and that makes the argument even more difficult.

I do disagree that "eye test" and perceived skill level should play a role in GOAT and I say that as a Federer fan. If Nadal passes Roger in slams he probably should be considered greater while the argument may still remain that Federer was the "better" player given his level of dominance and all-around game. Again there is that key difference.

I'm a big golf fan and I would agree with your differentiation of Tiger and Jack. I don't think there's anyone who really thinks there's much of a debate that peak Tiger is by far (and I mean there's no argument whatsoever) the best golfer of all time. But that's different from calling him greater than Jack. The number of majors, and the fact he won his last one so late probably still seals it for Jack. The fact that Tiger was winning tournaments at such a pace he almost overhauled Sam Snead and went past Jack gives him more of a case than just the major count, but even then still a wink to Jack at this stage. This is one of those situations where if Tiger matched Jack's number the debate would definitely be over

 

[britbox]

I'm a big golf fan and I would agree with your differentiation of Tiger and Jack. I don't think there's anyone who really thinks there's much of a debate that peak Tiger is by far (and I mean there's no argument whatsoever) the best golfer of all time. But that's different from calling him greater than Jack. The number of majors, and the fact he won his last one so late probably still seals it for Jack. The fact that Tiger was winning tournaments at such a pace he almost overhauled Sam Snead and went past Jack gives him more of a case than just the major count, but even then still a wink to Jack at this stage. This is one of those situations where if Tiger matched Jack's number the debate would definitely be over

Peak Tiger definitely was... the speed he was racking up majors in such a small period of time was unprecedented, and nobody has even looked like establishing that level of dominance since. This is one where I don't think Tiger has to surpass Jack's number, just get a bit closer. Winning a couple more here on in would be enough for me. I still find it incredible that Woods hasn't won a major in 10 years - you'd never have guessed it back in 2008.

 

[DarthFed]

I'm a big golf fan and I would agree with your differentiation of Tiger and Jack. I don't think there's anyone who really thinks there's much of a debate that peak Tiger is by far (and I mean there's no argument whatsoever) the best golfer of all time. But that's different from calling him greater than Jack. The number of majors, and the fact he won his last one so late probably still seals it for Jack. The fact that Tiger was winning tournaments at such a pace he almost overhauled Sam Snead and went past Jack gives him more of a case than just the major count, but even then still a wink to Jack at this stage. This is one of those situations where if Tiger matched Jack's number the debate would definitely be over

That's kind of what I was thinking. Has anything really changed for golf over the years such as number of competitors at majors or other things?

 

[Federberg]

Peak Tiger definitely was... the speed he was racking up majors in such a small period of time was unprecedented, and nobody has even looked like establishing that level of dominance since. This is one where I don't think Tiger has to surpass Jack's number, just get a bit closer. Winning a couple more here on in would be enough for me. I still find it incredible that Woods hasn't won a major in 10 years - you'd never have guessed it back in 2008.

It crazy isn't it? I would love for him to win another couple and seal the deal. In my heart he's already the GOAT

 

[Federberg]

That's kind of what I was thinking. Has anything really changed for golf over the years such as number of competitors at majors or other things?

Without question there is much greater depth now than in 60s. There are so many strong Asian and mainland European players now whereas before it was pretty much and Anglo-phone sport. The sheer number of pros now is extraordinary. And thanks to Tiger they're pretty much all millionaires

 

[britbox]

It crazy isn't it? I would love for him to win another couple and seal the deal. In my heart he's already the GOAT

I'd call him the BOAT. Best of All Time - No golfer has matched his level at his best yet his achievements have been matched. Nicklaus was a level below but carried that level for a lot longer.

 

[Federberg]

I'd call him the BOAT. Best of All Time - No golfer has matched his level at his best yet his achievements have been matched. Nicklaus was a level below but carried that level for a lot longer.

I can live with that.

 

[britbox]

That's kind of what I was thinking. Has anything really changed for golf over the years such as number of competitors at majors or other things?

The main difference will be equipment - you can drive way further with modern day clubs than the old woods.

 

[britbox]

On the OP and Broken's last post I do think spreading the love matters with regard to winning majors. Although, I don't think this is that significant with Nadal because he's done the career grand slam. But let's just say for argument's sake, that if Nadal had only won French Opens would it reduce his overall legacy? I'd say definitely, yes. Still, he's won the lot, so it's not a big deal in this case.

There is a hall of fame career (4 slams, Weeks at #1, YECs etc) between the two... but it doesn't feel like a hall of fame career - it feels fairly close. I said in an earlier post, that if Nadal matches Fed or even gets close and Fed wins no more, then the media will likely crown Nadal the GOAT... because the media love currency... in a kind of, what did you do for me today? manner of speaking.

 

[Horsa]

On the OP and Broken's last post I do think spreading the love matters with regard to winning majors. Although, I don't think this is that significant with Nadal because he's done the career grand slam. But let's just say for argument's sake, that if Nadal had only won French Opens would it reduce his overall legacy? I'd say definitely, yes. Still, he's won the lot, so it's not a big deal in this case.

There is a hall of fame career (4 slams, Weeks at #1, YECs etc) between the two... but it doesn't feel like a hall of fame career - it feels fairly close. I said in an earlier post, that if Nadal matches Fed or even gets close and Fed wins no more, then the media will likely crown Nadal the GOAT... because the media love currency... in a kind of, what did you do for me today? manner of speaking.

I guess you decided to have a tee-break from the golf conversation or go to the 19th hole for a pint then? Lol.

 

[Andy22]

OK...I feel like I'm losing what little mind I have left after a month of no Federer. I haven't been here since just before the mess that was Miami and tried the site on Sunday but it wouldn't load. Today I see that the forum is back to Tennis Frontier? Oy! I missed the announcment. This is what happens when you're too lazy to snark...

Don't worry, you have the chance to do your favorite thing to do on this, fourm which is giving it us nadal fans once federer starts dominating the grass court season bad luck with that.

 

[Busted]

I'm glad you managed to get your access problems solved. It happened so quick. At first I thought it was just a name-change & change in layout & thought it was brighter & more vibrant. Then the rules were laid out by admin which I think was necessary because of all the racism & intimidation which was going on but shouldn't have been because we are all supposedly civilised & mature human beings though you could be forgiven for thinking otherwise sometimes. As a result of admin getting authoritative it's a nicer place to be where people can have fun & interesting conversations & a laugh with each other again & we're free to say what we want (within reason) without feeling that we're going to be ribbed by anyone else except in friendly banter of course. This is just my interpretation of what went on though.

Thanks for the explanation. I haven't seen the new rules but I'm glad things have been spelled out clearly as far as the BS that was going when the forum was at tennis prose. I got into it with a couple of the other posters and just dropped out for a while because I come here to talk tennis not to put up with racist remarks and people being jerks about it.

 

[Busted]

Don't worry, you have the chance to do your favorite thing to do on this, fourm which is giving it us nadal fans once federer starts dominating the grass court season bad luck with that.

LOL! I'm looking forward to it...cuz at the moment I'm not watching much tennis at all. I'm perfectly willing to concede the clay season to Nadal so we can get on with the rest of the REAL tennis season...

 

[Horsa]

Thanks for the explanation. I haven't seen the new rules but I'm glad things have been spelled out clearly as far as the BS that was going when the forum was at tennis prose. I got into it with a couple of the other posters and just dropped out for a while because I come here to talk tennis not to put up with racist remarks and people being jerks about it.

You're welcome. Me too. I agree. Racist remarks & intimidation were rife. I'm very sorry to hear that you were being treated despicably by some people. You shouldn't have had to put up with that sort of attitude. I hope you enjoy yourself & have fun. :0)

 

[Andy22]

LOL! I'm looking forward to it...cuz at the moment I'm not watching much tennis at all. I'm perfectly willing to concede the clay season to Nadal so we can get on with the rest of the REAL tennis season...

We are in the real season, and its awesome man, watching it will bring you closer to nadal then ever.

 

[monfed]

Fed has more talent in his little pinky than Nadull in his entire body so Fed is and always will be the GOAT. dull can have clay

 

[Moxie]

Fed has more talent in his little pinky than Nadull in his entire body so Fed is and always will be the GOAT. dull can have clay

That's a bit of an exaggeration, wouldn't you say? And nice of you to concede clay to Rafa, since he owns it anyway.

 

[GameSetAndMath]

Fed has more talent in his little pinky than Nadull in his entire body

I don't know whether you had this point in mind or not when you wrote that line. I had recently been thinking about the issue of gross motor skills vs. fine motor skills. Of course, both are needed to excel in tennis. If you are unsure of what I am talking about, google up on those terms. I wonder as to who is very good at fine motor skills. Not restricting the discussion to Fedal. Consider others like Novak, Murray etc too.

 

[Andy22]

Federer never hit the level Rafael nadal playing that right now, I mean 46 sets in a row on clay, wow ever in my dreams did I think that anyone would win 46 sets in a row on any surface OMG.:bloodsucker1::bloodsucker2:

 

[MartyB]

Here's how I view the greatness of Fed/Nadal and which I think defines GOAT. Fed's talent even though I'm not a religious person is otherworldly or god given. It's innate and beautiful to watch. There has never been a more perfect tennis player. If one has had the privilege to see him play in person no matter what row I have I always sit up behind the baseline at the US Open and at times just watch him move without hitting the ball first and then I see the court sense and how he analyzes and strategizes his game towards his opponent with guile and computer like wizardry. He is astounding. The greatest athlete the sport has produced. And there have been great ones. Nadal is a "man made" or created tennis player who has honed his skills with his energy and tenacity. He is not left handed but right handed. His coach knew that the only way to beat Fed was to play the relentless style he does. He is a physical specimen but I would not call him a genius on the court. I admire his tennis achievements but watching Fed play as a far more eloquent writer stated it is watching a genius and a religious experience. As McEnroe always states Fed is the Barishnikov of tennis plus his greatness competitiveness and heart make him the GOAT. I don't know what the future brings for either of them in terms of victories into the future but they are astounding in different ways.