Fedalovic Wars

[britbox]

Give it two generations and it becomes about stats. The emotion and nuance dwindles away as do the people who witnessed it.

If you recall when Pete was going for 12/13.. suddenly Roy Emerson emerges into the mix. Roy was a great player in his own right but let's be honest, he should never regarded in the same bracket as Laver or Rosewall... and never was by people who were there (not me by the way, but earlier generations... i.e. parents)

Suddenly, stats come up and Emerson is catapulted into a top bracket player by the youngsters squabbling on Youtube threads. I ask my old man, and he rolls his eyes... "Pancho Gonzalez was the man".

Of course, that was a stats manipulation magnified by the amateur/pro divide... and the Career Slam keeps Laver in the mix until somebody matches it. Even Rosewall fades from memory. But it's a reality propped up by stats without nuance.

Moving outside of tennis... I followed NBA in the 80s and recall the annual changeover of prospective GOAT between Magic and Larry Byrd. Then came Jordan.... Now I hear young folks putting Kareem above Magic, and sometimes above Jordan... why? STATS. Kareem has actually improved his ranking in the hypothetical GOAT charts since he retired!

 

[El Dude]

Give it two generations and it becomes about stats. The emotion and nuance dwindles away as do the people who witnessed it.

If you recall when Pete was going for 12/13.. suddenly Roy Emerson emerges into the mix. Roy was a great player in his own right but let's be honest, he should never regarded in the same bracket as Laver or Rosewall... and never was by people who were there (not me by the way, but earlier generations... i.e. parents)

Suddenly, stats come up and Emerson is catapulted into a top bracket player by the youngsters squabbling on Youtube threads. I ask my old man, and he rolls his eyes... "Pancho Gonzalez was the man".

Of course, that was a stats manipulation magnified by the amateur/pro divide... and the Career Slam keeps Laver in the mix until somebody matches it. Even Rosewall fades from memory. But it's a reality propped up by stats without nuance.

Moving outside of tennis... I followed NBA in the 80s and recall the annual changeover of prospective GOAT between Magic and Larry Byrd. Then came Jordan.... Now I hear young folks putting Kareem above Magic, and sometimes above Jordan... why? STATS. Kareem has actually improved his ranking in the hypothetical GOAT charts since he retired!

Good post. Emerson vs. Rosewall is a good Rorschach of basic historical tennis knowledge, and one that plenty fail - not just kids on Youtube, but, well, the Tennis Channel. Some years ago they did a "100 Greatest" thing, and they ranked Emerson 11th among men, with Rosewall 13th, and Pancho 22nd! In reality (imo, of course), the latter two are definitely top 10 all-time, while Emerson is probably somewhere in the latter half of the top 50.

As for Kareem, that's a tricky one. I too (vaguely) remember the Kareem of the 80s, when he was really old. I misse his prime in the early 70s when he was a beast, and the advanced stats put him in the top tier. Meaning, I think Kareem is better than our memory of him in the 80s, but maybe not as good as some who only look at stats might say.

Tennis is hard enough to encapsulate statistically, due to shifting eras, context, etc etc, but basketball is even harder because it is a team sport. Look at Patrick Mahomes - this year he's having his worst record statistically, but his team is 13-1.

And with tennis, we always have the problem of "Slam absolutism" who don't seem to recognize the difference between Jan Kodes and Andy Murray, or Ilie Nastase and Johan Kriek.

 

[Moxie]

But don't the two posts above prove that we talk about the past legends forever? This is sports. Stats, records, etc. Sure, some of the nuance can get lost as memories fade and die-out, and stat preferences, such as "Slam absolutism" color the discussions. However, unlike the more distant past, this Golden Age of the Big 3 is well-documented on video. Plus, for the foreseeable future, there are 3 men at the top of the Slam records, so all will be in the conversation for quite some time. FFS, Pancho Gonzalez comes up around here, and we can't be the last of the tennis nerds, right?

 

[kskate2]

Good post. Emerson vs. Rosewall is a good Rorschach of basic historical tennis knowledge, and one that plenty fail - not just kids on Youtube, but, well, the Tennis Channel. Some years ago they did a "100 Greatest" thing, and they ranked Emerson 11th among men, with Rosewall 13th, and Pancho 22nd! In reality (imo, of course), the latter two are definitely top 10 all-time, while Emerson is probably somewhere in the latter half of the top 50.

As for Kareem, that's a tricky one. I too (vaguely) remember the Kareem of the 80s, when he was really old. I misse his prime in the early 70s when he was a beast, and the advanced stats put him in the top tier. Meaning, I think Kareem is better than our memory of him in the 80s, but maybe not as good as some who only look at stats might say.

Tennis is hard enough to encapsulate statistically, due to shifting eras, context, etc etc, but basketball is even harder because it is a team sport. Look at Patrick Mahomes - this year he's having his worst record statistically, but his team is 13-1.

And with tennis, we always have the problem of "Slam absolutism" who don't seem to recognize the difference between Jan Kodes and Andy Murray, or Ilie Nastase and Johan Kriek.

And then we have some players in team sports who are absolutely clunky in the reg season, but are solid gold in the post season.

 

[shawnbm]

Gonzales beat the young and upcoming teen sensation, Borg, in the early seventies--when he was approaching 50!!! He has to be one of the top five or so players ever.

 

[El Dude]

Gonzales beat the young and upcoming teen sensation, Borg, in the early seventies--when he was approaching 50!!! He has to be one of the top five or so players ever.

He also beat a 19-year old Jimmy Connors when he was 43. His greatest accomplishments, though, were totally dominated the World Pro Tours during the 50s and early 60s. Those were grueling.