Fedalovic Wars

[Moxie]

I think Djokovic will try to surpass Federer with career titles but at age 34…winning 21+ titles is huge tall task.

As for Nadal, we all know for sure he wants the Slam record even though he won’t admit in public. My question is I wonder what will be his other goals IF he achieves that Slam record next month at RG?

He is tied with Djokovic with 36 Masters 1000 titles and he is one win away from tying the H2H record with Djokovic.

That’s why I always thought that out of the Big 3, Nadal is probably the most “content” in terms of his own legacy. What I mean by “content” is that he doesn’t really have a tangible goal other than the slam record. In my opinion (speaking as a Nadal fan), as long Djokovic doesn’t surpasses him in the slam count, he will be totally fine with his legacy or records. Now, he will still compete at a high level until his body cannot handle it anymore.

It's an interesting question. If he wins RG next month, that would be twice in 7 months, so I imagine he would feel he had another one in him. Plus, he might rightly think that 21 isn't enough to quit on, if he wants to have the most at the end of this era, at least. Besides that, the elusive 2nd AO? To finally win the YEC? I can't see why another Wimbledon and/or US Open wouldn't be in there. I think Djokovic will end up with the most MS 1000 of the 3, and I doubt Nadal cares. If he could finish ahead in their h2h, though, he might like that. I agree with you that he is likely the most "content" with his legacy. He's achieved a lot, more than he ever dreamed, as he likes to say, and he can retire, when it happens, with a resume to be very proud of. One thing that probably also helps him to feel so content is that he will leave a clay legacy that may never be topped. His place in the record books may be perfectly secure in that. I know records are made to be broken in sports, but 13 titles at Roland Garros (and counting) is going to be hard to match, much less break. As Jim Courier pointed out when Rafa won #13 last fall, it's hard enough just to qualify for one Major 13 times, much less win it that many times.

 

[rafanoy1992]

Interesting points about extra/external motivations for Roger to keep going. Though by all accounts, he really does enjoy the tour. And Wimbledon hasn't even been played since he nearly won it. (Excellent point that he would have beaten Nadal and Djokovic b2b in that one. Hadn't thought of that bonus.) My pop psychology take on the 3 and their attitude about their GOAT race is this: I think Roger spent the majority of his career not even expecting to be in one. However, he did tip his hand about caring about records when he actively went after #1 ranking again. I also think that winning that Wimbledon meant a lot more to him because of the competition for top records. Did he really need a 9th Wimbledon? Of course he would want it, and he's competitive. But I always felt that the fumble at the goal line was due to the extra pressure of Nadal having 12 (at the time) RG titles, and to knowing that he probably needed one more to secure the top spot in the Majors race. I wasn't sure if I thought he'd play, say, small tournaments to pass Connors for most titles, but now that you suggest reasons he would stick around, then why not? Plus, he's always seemed to like going to places he's never been to play. Now I can see why that might also make Uniqlo happy. Suddenly I can see why that might make sense.

My take on Nadal is a little different that @rafanoy1992's. I believe he means what he says. He says that he'd love to finish with the most Majors, but he won't lose sleep over it (implying that it doesn't matter as much to him.) Both things can be true. Having the most Majors (of all and of all 3,) is a form of winning, and they all really, really like to win. But it has always worked for Nadal to keep his eyes on the immediate goals, and I don't think this is false modesty or a laissez faire attitude about the GOAT race. Just a different approach, and I do honestly think that he's not going to change the way he approaches the work at this stage in his career.

Novak has flat-out said that he wants the records. Even Rafa addressed that. He said there's nothing wrong with it, it's just a different approach. I agree with that. It's not more venal to say it out loud. Whatever motivates you to greatness and to keep producing it, good for you. Maybe that's why he seems more testy of late. He's got a lofty goal and he's the one playing from behind. Bottom line, whatever small variations in the ways they think about the GOAT race, I'm each of them would like to be the one sitting in the last chair when the music stops.

It is why I am curious to see on what the future holds for Nadal's career if he wins Slam #21 next month at RG. When I say curious I meant in a good way. Of course, Slams will always be his priority even if he wins next month. Moreover, you are right that he won't change his approach to work, why would he change that works for him? He would treat every tournament he enters with a goal of winning the whole thing. That's why I am very curious as a fan to see on how his career will fold at this stage of his legendary career.

I am just talking about the realistic and smaller goals from his perspective (and in some other cases the fans perspective of his goals, fair or unfair).

 

[MargaretMcAleer]

I did not think Rafa will play until his 'body fails him" he has stated many times over the years,he wants to play at a high level and be competitive.He recently intimated that he probably will play for another couple of years.As a fan I dont want to see him just making up the numbers in a tournament,he has surpassed my expectations,I would rather see him bow out gracefully and retire.

 

[Moxie]

It is why I am curious to see on what the future holds for Nadal's career if he wins Slam #21 next month at RG. When I say curious I meant in a good way. Of course, Slams will always be his priority even if he wins next month. Moreover, you are right that he won't change his approach to work, why would he change that works for him? He would treat every tournament he enters with a goal of winning the whole thing. That's why I am very curious as a fan to see on how his career will fold at this stage of his legendary career.

I am just talking about the realistic and smaller goals from his perspective (and in some other cases the fans perspective of his goals, fair or unfair).

I took all of what you were saying in a good way. We're Nadal fans. What I mentioned are what I thought might be his goals, though maybe they are just fan goals projected on him. He would probably say that his goal is to win the next tournament, which is RG, and then to be healthy enough to keep playing and enjoying it.

 

[MargaretMcAleer]

I took all of what you were saying in a good way. We're Nadal fans. What I mentioned are what I thought might be his goals, though maybe they are just fan goals projected on him. He would probably say that his goal is to win the next tournament, which is RG, and then to be healthy enough to keep playing and enjoying it.

Rafa has always stayed 'in the moment' and has never looked too far forward into the future.

 

[Moxie]

I did not think Rafa will play until his 'body fails him" he has stated many times over the years,he wants to play at a high level and be competitive.He recently intimated that he probably will play for another couple of years.As a fan I dont want to see him just making up the numbers in a tournament,he has surpassed my expectations,I would rather see him bow out gracefully and retire.

I agree with you. I think he's the least likely of the 3 to drag it out when his results start to fail. (See reasonings above for Roger and Novak to do that.) My secret hope, as a fan, is that he win 1, maybe 2 more Roland Garros', then retire without losing there again. Basically everything else is gravy, though I'm hoping for other things, too. Greedy? Yes.

 

[Moxie]

Rafa has always stayed 'in the moment' and has never looked too far forward into the future.

Exactly. This is his method. I cannot think of one instance that he could be said to have looked ahead to the next round to the detriment of the one he was in. Whereas, Federer has admitted that he was looking at the final with Rafa when he got side-swiped by Novak in the SF at the USO in 2010. And I rather do think that Novak was anticipating the final when Nishikori took him down in 4 at USO in 2014. This is my opinion. But I do think Rafa takes a simple approach: work on improving what is not working well, and focus on what is directly in front of you.

 

[the AntiPusher]

I would be very satisfied with RG..another US Open and an AO...the number 25 is achievable but I don't want him to damage his body like poor Andy destroyed his chasing Novak for #1 YE ranking

 

[Moxie]

I would be very satisfied with RG..another US Open and an AO...the number 25 is achievable but I don't want him to damage his body like poor Andy destroyed his chasing Novak for #1 YE ranking

This is a false notion, IMO, about Andy Murray. Hip damage is not something that happened to him in one late season push to take #1. He had a good year, and a great late season. He didn't really play more than he would have, in terms of tournaments. Yes, he won a lot, and there was DC in there, but he only played 2 ties. Djokovic has had several great late season runs, as has Federer, and their hips didn't give out. I'm no doctor, but the damage to Andy's hip(s) seems to be long-coming and either bad genes, and/or poor ergonomics based on his body and his playing style. Maybe @MargaretMcAleer can shed some light, but I don't think the hip damage happened in a short 4 month span.

 

[rafanoy1992]

Exactly. This is his method. I cannot think of one instance that he could be said to have looked ahead to the next round to the detriment of the one he was in. Whereas, Federer has admitted that he was looking at the final with Rafa when he got side-swiped by Novak in the SF at the USO in 2010. And I rather do think that Novak was anticipating the final when Nishikori took him down in 4 at USO in 2014. This is my opinion. But I do think Rafa takes a simple approach: work on improving what is not working well, and focus on what is directly in front of you.

And that simple approach has given him a golden opportunity to actually get the Slam record next month, who would have thunk it, Moxie?

I actually agree with @MargaretMcAleer that Nadal, when all said done, will probably "retire" first out of the Big Three once he knows he has "accomplish" everything he has on his career with it his absolute very best whatever that is for him. While he is still enjoying playing tennis at a high level, at the back of his head, he wants to have children with his wife, Maria, and just goes boating at the island of Mallorca. Either way, if he ever does accomplish the Slam record next month, then I will enjoy every moment of his career right after he accomplishes it, of course.

I would be very satisfied with RG..another US Open and an AO...the number 25 is achievable but I don't want him to damage his body like poor Andy destroyed his chasing Novak for #1 YE ranking

I actually hope he does not think about a certain number of slam if he achieves the slam record next month because that might actually be detrimental for him in a way...

 

[Nadalfan2013]

I'm still very happy with the Rome victory.

If Djokovic had won he would have lead 37-35 in M1000 titles and 30-27 in h2h. It would have gotten that much harder for GOATdal to win those stats.

But with GOATdal's win he is now tied 36-36 in M1000 titles and only 28-29 in h2h. He is making a big move on both.

Of course the slam race is by far the biggest thing but those extra stats would be a good added bonus.

I also have a good feeling about Wimbledon, he did very well in the last 2 years that he played and he definitely has a shot.

 

[Moxie]

And that simple approach has given him a golden opportunity to actually get the Slam record next month, who would have thunk it, Moxie?

I actually agree with @MargaretMcAleer that Nadal, when all said done, will probably "retire" first out of the Big Three once he knows he has "accomplish" everything he has on his career with it his absolute very best whatever that is for him. While he is still enjoying playing tennis at a high level, at the back of his head, he wants to have children with his wife, Maria, and just goes boating at the island of Mallorca. Either way, if he ever does accomplish the Slam record next month, then I will enjoy every moment of his career right after he accomplishes it, of course.



I actually hope he does not think about a certain number of slam if he achieves the slam record next month because that might actually be detrimental for him in a way...

Realistically, I don't think any of us would have "thunk" it. Even in 2017, it seemed like Rafa would be perpetually 3 Majors behind Roger. If he really does pass him, next month, or whenever, I'm with you...I'm just going to enjoy it. I do not think that Rafa will think of a specific amount of Majors. He'll know when he's done.

 

[Jelenafan]

Nadal, when all said done, will probably "retire" first out of the Big Three once he knows he has "accomplish" everything he has on his career with it his absolute very best whatever that is for him. While he is still enjoying playing tennis at a high level, at the back of his head, he wants to have children with his wife, Maria, and just goes boating at the island of Mallorca. Either way, if he ever does accomplish the Slam record next month, then I will enjoy every moment of his career right after he accomplishes it, of course.

Goodness, I take it you mean Rafa will retire the youngest chronologically at whatever age he does?

Because I couldn't take the other possible interpretation that geriatric Federer would be playing at age 44 with Rafa long gone from the game....

 

[MargaretMcAleer]

This is a false notion, IMO, about Andy Murray. Hip damage is not something that happened to him in one late season push to take #1. He had a good year, and a great late season. He didn't really play more than he would have, in terms of tournaments. Yes, he won a lot, and there was DC in there, but he only played 2 ties. Djokovic has had several great late season runs, as has Federer, and their hips didn't give out. I'm no doctor, but the damage to Andy's hip(s) seems to be long-coming and either bad genes, and/or poor ergonomics based on his body and his playing style. Maybe @MargaretMcAleer can shed some light, but I don't think the hip damage happened in a short 4 month span.

In Andy's case it can be genetic and also his playing style and it certainly did not happen in a 4 month span.A lot of people wait to have surgery on their hips and it is usually a last resort treatment.If my memory serves me well,Andy did try other unconventional methods before his hip surgery.Deteriorated hip joints can make surgery difficult to perform,which does require additional physical therapy afterward,can also limit the maxium flexibilty that the new joint can achieve.

 

[Moxie]

Goodness, I take it you mean Rafa will retire the youngest chronologically at whatever age he does?

Because I couldn't take the other possible interpretation that geriatric Federer would be playing at age 44 with Rafa long gone from the game....

Hey, you're the guy that gave us good reasons why Roger might still be playing at 41-42. Probably Roger will retire first, but I don't see Rafa going much beyond 2023. It's been a while since we've discussed what Roger's valedictory year might be like, and he may do one, and I don't expect that Rafa would steal his thunder. But if Roger really might hang in there, for the reasons you suggest, I don't think Rafa would be far behind. Not to be morbid, but we've always thought that Roger would retire at Basel. I think Rafa will at Barcelona. Novak at Belgrade? Is it unseemly to do it at a Major, even where you've dominated?

 

[Moxie]

In Andy's case it can be genetic and also his playing style and it certainly did not happen in a 4 month span.A lot of people wait to have surgery on their hips and it is usually a last resort treatment.If my memory serves me well,Andy did try other unconventional methods before his hip surgery.Deteriorated hip joints can make surgery difficult to perform,which does require additional physical therapy afterward,can also limit the maxium flexibilty that the new joint can achieve.

Thanks for saying that it didn't happen in a 4-month span. I always sort of hate that kind of talk of "blaming" Andy for blowing out his hips by pressing to do what he did at the end of 2016. I think there are those who would make it a lesser achievement because it took so much effort. As if, and WTF? Murray got to #1, and he got the YE#1, and he won it by beating Djokovic in the final of the YEC. That was a great achievement. Full stop, as you like to say.

 

[Moxie]

Nadal asked to compare his win yesterday over Djokovic with his 2006 win in Rome over Federer. That seems an unfair comparison. (First of all, just because Bo5 v Bo3.) I would have thought a better comparison was their 2009 SF in Madrid. Other preferences in Bo3 between Nadal and Djokovic? (And it is always interesting to revisit the 2006 Rome Final. The article calls it perhaps the greatest match of all time.)

Rafael Nadal: 'I can't compare this win with the one against Roger Federer in 2006'

Tennis - 15 years after saving match points in the Rome Open final against Federer, Nadal did the same against Shapovalov in R3

www.tennisworldusa.org

 

[Jelenafan]

Realistically, I don't think any of us would have "thunk" it. Even in 2017, it seemed like Rafa would be perpetually 3 Majors behind Roger. If he really does pass him, next month, or whenever, I'm with you...I'm just going to enjoy it. I do not think that Rafa will think of a specific amount of Majors. He'll know when he's done.

I hate the "binary" POV of Rafa vis a vis Federer, so to me it wasn't that Rafa would be perpetually behind Federer but rather if Rafa's body would continue to allow him to play tennis at a very high level. 2015/16 was probably the darkest period for Rafa fans , with the “consensus” of pundits of his demise (along with.. cough, cough....a whole slew of arrogant and smug Fedfans..cough..cough..cough...) Once Rafa roared back in 2017 and won 2 more Majors, well, do the math, he is 5 years younger than Methuselah so if he remained healthy...

The funny thing is to me Rafa seems to enjoy the competition as much if not more than the other two. The issue with him has always been his body, can it sustain him. Rafa’s injuries gave him the perspective that you enjoy the moment because it is fleeting. It’s something unique to him, when he won the FO over Soderling in 2010 after the injury-ravaged 2009, the emotions and tears that poured out of him that day , that joy and appreciation of the fragility of the sporting moment, it so encapsulates the man.

Hey, you're the guy that gave us good reasons why Roger might still be playing at 41-42. Probably Roger will retire first, but I don't see Rafa going much beyond 2023. It's been a while since we've discussed what Roger's valedictory year might be like, and he may do one, and I don't expect that Rafa would steal his thunder. But if Roger really might hang in there, for the reasons you suggest, I don't think Rafa would be far behind. Not to be morbid, but we've always thought that Roger would retire at Basel. I think Rafa will at Barcelona. Novak at Belgrade? Is it unseemly to do it at a Major, even where you've dominated?

Again, why is it on Rafa’s shoulders not to steal his thunder?

Rafa will retire when it’s best for Rafa and the timing of it shouldn’t be placed in the context of anyone else.

 

[the AntiPusher]

And that simple approach has given him a golden opportunity to actually get the Slam record next month, who would have thunk it, Moxie?

I actually agree with @MargaretMcAleer that Nadal, when all said done, will probably "retire" first out of the Big Three once he knows he has "accomplish" everything he has on his career with it his absolute very best whatever that is for him. While he is still enjoying playing tennis at a high level, at the back of his head, he wants to have children with his wife, Maria, and just goes boating at the island of Mallorca. Either way, if he ever does accomplish the Slam record next month, then I will enjoy every moment of his career right after he accomplishes it, of course.



I actually hope he does not think about a certain number of slam if he achieves the slam record next month because that might actually be detrimental for him in a way...

I said I hope he gets to number #25..I didn't say Rafa should use it as a gauge or a barometer to shoot for.

 

[tented]

Nadal asked to compare his win yesterday over Djokovic with his 2006 win in Rome over Federer. That seems an unfair comparison. (First of all, just because Bo5 v Bo3.) I would have thought a better comparison was their 2009 SF in Madrid. Other preferences in Bo3 between Nadal and Djokovic? (And it is always interesting to revisit the 2006 Rome Final. The article calls it perhaps the greatest match of all time.)

Rafael Nadal: 'I can't compare this win with the one against Roger Federer in 2006'

Tennis - 15 years after saving match points in the Rome Open final against Federer, Nadal did the same against Shapovalov in R3

www.tennisworldusa.org

I think one of their greatest best-of-three was their Miami final in 2011, when Novak prevailed in a third set tiebreak. It was also a key win for Djokovic, after having already beaten Rafa in the IW final a few weeks before — that, after (I think) having never triumphed over Nadal in a final. It set the tone for 2011, when Novak was all over everyone, including Nadal.

Overall, though, their absolute best was the Madrid 2009 SF, which held the record for the longest best-of-three for a few years (I believe the Federer-del Potro SF at the London Olympics beat that record).