Fedalovic Wars

[El Dude]

It does fill out the resume, doesn't it? I was strongly against the idea that Novak's (or Roger's) lack of Olympics Gold didn't factor into GOATness, but if we're looking for someone who has done everything, well, here we have it. I suppose the only way his resume could be more complete would be to win another 11 titles and pass Connors. But title count is a bit dubious, given how variable they are. Connors piled up a ton of titles that were barely ATP 250 equivalent - some of them more like today's Challengers (like this one, for example). In fact, I think two or three of his year-end #1s are largely because of that. But my point is, if Novak wants to own truly everything, then title count is the biggest one left.

 

[Moxie]

Obviously he got crushed in the Wimbledon final by an ascendant Carlos. The Spaniard’s best level was just superior to anything Nole was able to reach on that day. Credit to Novak… at 37 he made his fifth attempt for the gold. He faced the reigning Roland Garros champion in the gold medal match and prevailed in two fantastic sets of tennis.

When asked if this completed the puzzle, his answer was “Yes.” If he retires tomorrow he has the career Golden Slam, 24 Slams, two (2) Golden Masters which neither Fed nor Nadal even have one. He has a winning h2h against future greats Sinner and Alcaraz. I think he would be the GOTE of the GOAT era. I would be happy for him if he hangs it up at this point.

Clearly, it was the one big thing left on the bucket list for him. Frankly, I'm not sure how many small things there even are. I thought of the 11 titles to pass Connors, which @El Dude mentioned above. Or tying Roger's total at Wimbledon. Personally, I don't think either is likely, though he's now playing his best tennis of the year. If I were to guess, I'd say he may weigh his motivation level when the glow of this win wears off a bit. And his wife may have an opinion. If he's still feeling motivated, and enjoying the training, the travel and the competition, I'd think he'd play the USO, the rest of the year, and, what, maybe retire at the AO? Or play on...who knows? He's ever said he'd like to play to 40 and even beyond, but that was before this year. Anyway, he'd certainly be ending on a high note, including the #2 ranking, if he decided it was time to walk away now.

EDITED: I changed the above where I meant to say he's playing HIS best tennis of the year. Sinner and Alcaraz are still playing the best tennis of the year.

 

[El Dude]

I'm guessing he doesn't really care about the title record. I mean, he could in that he could be the type that checks his record page frequently and basks in the glory of it all, but it just doesn't seem like enough of a priority to change whatever his plans are. Meaning, if he gets to 110, it will be tangential to him going after #25. He probably really wants #25, or "just one more," more than he does 109 titles or anything else.

My guess is that he'll go all in at the USO and again at the AO. 25 has a nice, round quality to it, and I'm guessing after going through his longest Slamless streak since 2017-18, he's hungry to hoist one more trophy.

But I do think we're approaching the end. There's just a vibe about this year - not that it is an off year and he'll re-adjust and play a few more, but that we're winding down.

But ultimately I have no idea how much longer he'll play. Maybe Novak doesn't know, either, and things change. I was certain that 2024 was Rafa's last, but now it sounds like he might give it another go in 2025, or at least until he gets injured again. I could see Novak setting his mind on #25 and quitting after he either wins it or is sure he can't. The former could happen in a couple months, while the latter might take a year or two.

 

[Moxie]

I'm guessing he doesn't really care about the title record. I mean, he could in that he could be the type that checks his record page frequently and basks in the glory of it all, but it just doesn't seem like enough of a priority to change whatever his plans are. Meaning, if he gets to 110, it will be tangential to him going after #25. He probably really wants #25, or "just one more," more than he does 109 titles or anything else.

My guess is that he'll go all in at the USO and again at the AO. 25 has a nice, round quality to it, and I'm guessing after going through his longest Slamless streak since 2017-18, he's hungry to hoist one more trophy.

But I do think we're approaching the end. There's just a vibe about this year - not that it is an off year and he'll re-adjust and play a few more, but that we're winding down.

But ultimately I have no idea how much longer he'll play. Maybe Novak doesn't know, either, and things change. I was certain that 2024 was Rafa's last, but now it sounds like he might give it another go in 2025, or at least until he gets injured again. I could see Novak setting his mind on #25 and quitting after he either wins it or is sure he can't. The former could happen in a couple months, while the latter might take a year or two.

Another way of looking at it is that he's no longer chasing records, but that, suddenly, he has interesting competition again. And today he beat Alcaraz. Maybe the competition could keep him interested for a while longer. As I said, if I'm guessing, I'd say he'll play the USO to assess where he's at, both in terms of level/health, and motivation.

 

[PhiEaglesfan712]

I'm guessing he doesn't really care about the title record. I mean, he could in that he could be the type that checks his record page frequently and basks in the glory of it all, but it just doesn't seem like enough of a priority to change whatever his plans are. Meaning, if he gets to 110, it will be tangential to him going after #25. He probably really wants #25, or "just one more," more than he does 109 titles or anything else.

My guess is that he'll go all in at the USO and again at the AO. 25 has a nice, round quality to it, and I'm guessing after going through his longest Slamless streak since 2017-18, he's hungry to hoist one more trophy.

But I do think we're approaching the end. There's just a vibe about this year - not that it is an off year and he'll re-adjust and play a few more, but that we're winding down.

But ultimately I have no idea how much longer he'll play. Maybe Novak doesn't know, either, and things change. I was certain that 2024 was Rafa's last, but now it sounds like he might give it another go in 2025, or at least until he gets injured again. I could see Novak setting his mind on #25 and quitting after he either wins it or is sure he can't. The former could happen in a couple months, while the latter might take a year or two.

I disagree. I can't see Novak retiring before Rafa. I think Rafa has played his last significant singles match. Maybe he shows up for the Laver Cup, but his body is saying no mas. Besides, I think he'd much rather go out losing to Novak, than playing on and maybe losing to a guy like Lloyd Harris. Rafa's Protective Ranking is going to run out soon.

Novak, if healthy, I think will try to at least defend his gold medal at Indian Wells in 2028. If he's still short of the all-time titles and/or match wins records, and it's within reach, I think he might even play past the 2028 Olympics.

 

[shawnbm]

Nole certainly is the most accomplished male tennis player of the Open Era--he beat all the stats of the guys he battled against coming up who were--both of them--being bantered about by many as the best we had ever seen. And then along came Novak. I can't think of any meaningful record he does not own other than most consecutive weeks at number one. He has the most Australian titles by a long way, almost tied Roger at SW19, and is one short of Pete and Roger at the US Open. (Rafa at RG is in another universe). I mean, he owns every other record I do believe--most majors, most major semifinals and finals, most weeks at number one by a loooong margin, most year end number ones, most Masters Shields (by a long margin again), most "big" titles (majors and masters taken together) by a looong margin, head to head over both Roger and Rafa and he is not even done. Amazing career. Truly.

 

[El Dude]

I disagree. I can't see Novak retiring before Rafa. I think Rafa has played his last significant singles match. Maybe he shows up for the Laver Cup, but his body is saying no mas. Besides, I think he'd much rather go out losing to Novak, than playing on and maybe losing to a guy like Lloyd Harris. Rafa's Protective Ranking is going to run out soon.

Novak, if healthy, I think will try to at least defend his gold medal at Indian Wells in 2028. If he's still short of the all-time titles and/or match wins records, and it's within reach, I think he might even play past the 2028 Olympics.

I didn't say I think he'll retire before Rafa, just that it is up in the air - as far as how long both will play. Who knows, maybe one element of inspiration for Novak is hanging around to make sure Rafa doesn't make an(other) improbable resurgence.

I was saying that in the context of being fairly certain that Rafa was going to retire this year, but him overtly leaving the door open for next year, to the point that I think there are better than even odds that he'll, at least, give Roland Garros one more go. I would be very surprised if Rafa played a full season next year or at all in 2026. With Novak, I think there's a wider range, but that's basically on a year-to-year basis. For Rafa, it is more of a "seasonal" or even Slam-by-Slam basis.

All that said, I doubt Novak will play in the 2028 Olympics, but who knows. Dude will be 41.

 

[MargaretMcAleer]

El Dude,

The latest news from Rafa he will take a break after the Olympics, I highly doubt he will play the USO, personally speaking , though I could be wrong, I feel he would have to play at warm up tournament before the USO, he hasnt taken a PR ranking into Montreal, I doubt he would play Cinncinati.Rafa is still confirmed to play in the Laver Cup.Rafa told reporters during his break with family he will then make up his mind if he will continue playing tournaments, though a positive sign was despite the setbacks and disappointments of the last 4 months he still enjoys his tennis.

 

[El Dude]

El Dude,

The latest news from Rafa he will take a break after the Olympics, I highly doubt he will play the USO, personally speaking , though I could be wrong, I feel he would have to play at warm up tournament before the USO, he hasnt taken a PR ranking into Montreal, I doubt he would play Cinncinati.Rafa is still confirmed to play in the Laver Cup.Rafa told reporters during his break with family he will then make up his mind if he will continue playing tournaments, though a positive sign was despite the setbacks and disappointments of the last 4 months he still enjoys his tennis.

Interesting. I'm curious: How are y'all (Rafa fans) feeling about it right now? @Moxie ? @the AntiPusher ? Do you want him to carry on in the hopes that he finds his groove again, or are you ready for him to hang up the racquet and call it a pretty good career? (haha).

I'm glad he's still enjoying tennis, but I have a twinge of @Fiero425 in that I don't want to see him carry on this way for too long. He's such a giant in my eyes and, even though there were moments I rooted for him to lose (so he wouldn't beat Roger!), I don't want to see him lose in early rounds and to lesser players for too long.

That said, it isn't like he's playing poorly in terms of the tour as a whole. I think Tennis Abstract's Elo illustrates this with him currently ranking #24. He's mainly been losing to pretty good and elite players, and beating most of the field. But...is that Rafa?

I suppose I kind of want to see him give it one more shot next clay season. Rest and train for the rest of this year, staying healthy and improving fitness as much as possible - but nothing that risks injury. Then, maybe, get some matches in after the AO, and go hard during clay season with the hopes of peaking, winning, and retiring at Roland Garros. I suppose that's sort of a repeat of this year, but maybe he has a better sense of what he needs to work on.

But I don't have the deep emotional attachment to him, so I'm wondering where y'all are at. I will say that even though I knew Roger was done winning Slams after Wimbledon 2019, I was still bummed out when he announced his retirement. I'm not sure how I would have felt if he carried on in 2021 and beyond like he was playing, though, which was pretty similar to Rafa's current level.

 

[Moxie]

Interesting. I'm curious: How are y'all (Rafa fans) feeling about it right now? @Moxie ? @the AntiPusher ? Do you want him to carry on in the hopes that he finds his groove again, or are you ready for him to hang up the racquet and call it a pretty good career? (haha).

I'm glad he's still enjoying tennis, but I have a twinge of @Fiero425 in that I don't want to see him carry on this way for too long. He's such a giant in my eyes and, even though there were moments I rooted for him to lose (so he wouldn't beat Roger!), I don't want to see him lose in early rounds and to lesser players for too long.

That said, it isn't like he's playing poorly in terms of the tour as a whole. I think Tennis Abstract's Elo illustrates this with him currently ranking #24. He's mainly been losing to pretty good and elite players, and beating most of the field. But...is that Rafa?

I suppose I kind of want to see him give it one more shot next clay season. Rest and train for the rest of this year, staying healthy and improving fitness as much as possible - but nothing that risks injury. Then, maybe, get some matches in after the AO, and go hard during clay season with the hopes of peaking, winning, and retiring at Roland Garros. I suppose that's sort of a repeat of this year, but maybe he has a better sense of what he needs to work on.

But I don't have the deep emotional attachment to him, so I'm wondering where y'all are at. I will say that even though I knew Roger was done winning Slams after Wimbledon 2019, I was still bummed out when he announced his retirement. I'm not sure how I would have felt if he carried on in 2021 and beyond like he was playing, though, which was pretty similar to Rafa's current level.

You're kind to ask. Personally, I've been very "in my feelings" about Rafa in the last many months, and watching him play. You have a favorite player over such a long time, as you know, and it's hard when you can see that the end is coming.

With Rafa, we're lived through the struggles with injury, and even confidence, and we've seen him come back. But it's getting harder to believe in. I'd love it if he can pull it together for one more resurgence, and yes, another win at RG would be a dream. (I will remind you and others of when we Rafa fans just hoped he'd come back, after a fallow period, and finally get #15 to pass Pete. So dreams do come true.)

That said, to the other part of your question, and citing Fiero, by which you mean, how much do we fear he'll limp towards the end? I read Wertheim's recent Mailbag to this effect: he says that every player has a right to play as long as they like, and it in no way affects their legacy. Fans love the romance of seeing someone go out on a high note, or hoping they will. But that's hard to time perfectly. I'll support Rafa as long as he plays. The decision of when to quit is up to him.

 

[Nadalfan2013]

Djokovic needs to beat Nadal at least 4 more times in slams cause being down 7-11 h2h were it matters most just doesn't cut it for an alleged GOAT.

 

[Shivashish Sarkar]

Guys just stop fighting over who's the GOAT and who's not. Djokovic with the most slams cannot be denied the GOAT title at the moment. I will always remain a Federer fan.

 

[Shivashish Sarkar]

The way I see it is :

Federer = King of grass
Nadal = King of clay
Djokovic = King of hard

Also, everyone has their unique strengths and weaknesses making everyone awesome in a way if you love the game.

 

[Shivashish Sarkar]

Nole certainly is the most accomplished male tennis player of the Open Era--he beat all the stats of the guys he battled against coming up who were--both of them--being bantered about by many as the best we had ever seen. And then along came Novak. I can't think of any meaningful record he does not own other than most consecutive weeks at number one. He has the most Australian titles by a long way, almost tied Roger at SW19, and is one short of Pete and Roger at the US Open. (Rafa at RG is in another universe). I mean, he owns every other record I do believe--most majors, most major semifinals and finals, most weeks at number one by a loooong margin, most year end number ones, most Masters Shields (by a long margin again), most "big" titles (majors and masters taken together) by a looong margin, head to head over both Roger and Rafa and he is not even done. Amazing career. Truly.

I agree with you.

 

[Nadalfan2013]

The way I see it is :

Federer = King of grass
Nadal = King of clay
Djokovic = King of hard

Also, everyone has their unique strengths and weaknesses making everyone awesome in a way if you love the game.

Exactly. And if there were 2 slams on clay and 1 on hardcourt/grass each then it wouldn't be a 2 slam lead but more like a 10 slam trail. Djokovic fangirls think that Djokovic is so great but in reality he is just lucky, not only with the surface ratio but also with Nadal having hundreds of injuries opening the door for Djokovic to win much more than he should have.

 

[nehmeth]

The way I see it is :

Federer = King of grass
Nadal = King of clay
Djokovic = King of hard

Also, everyone has their unique strengths and weaknesses making everyone awesome in a way if you love the game.

Roger has 8 Wimbledon titles and Novak has 7. But Novak has a 3-1 h2h against Roger on the turf.

 

[nehmeth]

Nole certainly is the most accomplished male tennis player of the Open Era--he beat all the stats of the guys he battled against coming up who were--both of them--being bantered about by many as the best we had ever seen. And then along came Novak. I can't think of any meaningful record he does not own other than most consecutive weeks at number one. He has the most Australian titles by a long way, almost tied Roger at SW19, and is one short of Pete and Roger at the US Open. (Rafa at RG is in another universe). I mean, he owns every other record I do believe--most majors, most major semifinals and finals, most weeks at number one by a loooong margin, most year end number ones, most Masters Shields (by a long margin again), most "big" titles (majors and masters taken together) by a looong margin, head to head over both Roger and Rafa and he is not even done. Amazing career. Truly.

And he has two Golden Masters (and 1 title short of 3)… having won all Masters 1000’s at least twice. Neither Roger nor Rafa have one. I think Queen’s Club or Halle (or both) should have been made 1000 level events so that all surfaces would be represented among the top ATP tournaments. Still hasn’t happened.

 

[Shivashish Sarkar]

Roger has 8 Wimbledon titles and Novak has 7. But Novak has a 3-1 h2h against Roger on the turf.

Hm..

But Roger has more USO titles than Novak and a positive h2h with him too, viz., 3-2.

 

[nehmeth]

Hm..

But Roger has more USO titles than Novak and a positive h2h with him too, viz., 3-2.

Absolutely.

 

[Nadalfan2013]

Nadal is 11-7 in slams vs Pushovic and 10-4 in slams vs Frauderer.

That's 21-11 total.

Unbilibable, no?