Djokovic Era

[brokenshoelace]

Like everything else we should take what Toni says with a big grain of salt. When he says stuff like that he is just trying to motivate his nephew.

You are going to hear it now. I smell a complex issue here.:lolz: In case you didn't get the memo, there is only one person who can tell us what Toni meant.

Wait wait wait, but when I actually explained what Toni meant, Riotbeard replied by saying it's pretty obvious and it needed no explanation (ie Toni wasn't talking career wise). Yet you seem to imply that I was wrong about what Toni meant. So was Riotbeard wrong too? Call him out on it instead of your passive aggressive nonsense.

OH MY GOD I'm sorry. I'm bullying you. Please don't pack up and leave (again).

 

[tented]

Like everything else we should take what Toni says with a big grain of salt. When he says stuff like that he is just trying to motivate his nephew.

Bingo! That was my first thought, too. But that doesn't mean Toni doesn't mean it -- I genuinely think he believes Roger is the GOAT, for example, but yes, there's an element of motivation in there, too.

 

[El Dude]

BS, Novak is not on the same level as Roger and Rafa career-wise, but he's slowly closing the gap. Over the last four years he has the best record, edging over Rafa during that same time span (2011-14).

Will he end up catching Roger and Rafa? Chances are he won't - he's only a year younger than Rafa but with half as many Slams. At a similar point in Roger's career - the end of 2008 - Roger had 13 Slams, which is the same number that Rafa had at Novak's current age.

So on one hand we can say that Roger and Rafa are 6 Slams ahead of Novak, which is a massive difference in pace. That said, every career is different and tennis a fickle game. Novak has a couple things going for him. I'd say that he's got an edge on Roger, Rafa, and Andy - due to age, health, and consistency (and skill), respectively. There's also the fact, which I mentioned up-thread, that the younger generation is just not that competitive. So it may not be for another two or three years until another truly elite player matures in their prime, which gives the current elite a 2-4 year period in which they are still young enough to play at a high level, and the next generation hasn't stepped it up.

So while I think the odds are against Novak catching Rafa and Roger, I think he's got a legitimate shot, or at least coming close enough to make things interesting.

 

[El Dude]

Quick comparison - 2011-14 Period:

NOVAK
6 Slams
3 World Tour Finals
15 Masters
30 titles overall

RAFA
5 Slams
0 World Tour Finals
9 Masters
21 titles overall

 

[brokenshoelace]

BS, Novak is not on the same level as Roger and Rafa career-wise, but he's slowly closing the gap. Over the last four years he has the best record, edging over Rafa during that same time span (2011-14).

Will he end up catching Roger and Rafa? Chances are he won't - he's only a year younger than Rafa but with half as many Slams. At a similar point in Roger's career - the end of 2008 - Roger had 13 Slams, which is the same number that Rafa had at Novak's current age.

So on one hand we can say that Roger and Rafa are 6 Slams ahead of Novak, which is a massive difference in pace. That said, every career is different and tennis a fickle game. Novak has a couple things going for him. I'd say that he's got an edge on Roger, Rafa, and Andy - due to age, health, and consistency (and skill), respectively. There's also the fact, which I mentioned up-thread, that the younger generation is just not that competitive. So it may not be for another two or three years until another truly elite player matures in their prime, which gives the current elite a 2-4 year period in which they are still young enough to play at a high level, and the next generation hasn't stepped it up.

So while I think the odds are against Novak catching Rafa and Roger, I think he's got a legitimate shot, or at least coming close enough to make things interesting.

Sure, and when he does catch up, we'll talk.

My response was to a pretty irrelevant quote by Toni that means nothing really, and to the notion that this is some sort of Djokovic era. The above you stated, while factually correct, has nothing to do with my stance.

 

[brokenshoelace]

Quick comparison - 2011-14 Period:

NOVAK
6 Slams
3 World Tour Finals
15 Masters
30 titles overall

RAFA
5 Slams
0 World Tour Finals
9 Masters
21 titles overall

And that's pretty much this isn't the Novak era. He's been the best player, but not by a hugely significant margin (and in this case, a 1 slam difference is not quite as significant as 1 slam difference in a single year, since we have 4 seasons worth of data. Because I'm sure someone would have brought up my initial claim re: Fed's 2005 and Novak's 2011).

 

[El Dude]

But its not just one Slam. It is +1 Slam, +3 WTFs, +6 Masters, and +9 titles overall.

 

[brokenshoelace]

But its not just one Slam. It is +1 Slam, +3 WTFs, +6 Masters, and +9 titles overall.

Does that make it an era though? Isn't that the whole point of this thread (if the answer is yes, then standards have really lowered)? Also, an era was never defined by Masters 1000 events, let's be real here.

 

[El Dude]

Well remember, Broken, that Obsi was saying if Novak continued being the "first among equals" for another couple years, would we later look back and consider this the Novak Era?

But yeah, "era" is semantics. I think we can say without too much controversy that 2004-07 was the Federer Era as he was so dominant for those four years. And maybe we could say 1993-97 or '98 was the Sampras Era, as he was the clear dominant player during that time (although it started to breakdown a bit in '98). But since 2008, there has been no two-year period of sustained dominance by a single player - and I would think an "era" would have to be at least two years, otherwise we might as well speak of "year." (Now if Rafa had been healthy in 2009, despite what my fellow Federer fans might say I think we'd be looking back at 2008-10 as the Nadal Era; on the other hand, Rafa seems to play best from behind so if might not have been able maintain playing at the top for three years in a row...he seems to thrive on falling behind and utilizes that for inspiration).

But again, it depends on how you want to slice the cake. We could say:

2004-07 Federer Era
2008-09 Fedal Era
2010 Year of Rafa
2011 Year of Novak
2012 Year of the Big Four
2013 The Spaniard's Revenge
2014 The Serbian Sneak-back

Or something like that!

But all joking aside, there are so many ways to slice the cake, how you want to define things. I don't know if I'd call 2011-14 the "Novak Era" because in only one of those years was he truly dominant and in another someone else finished #1. But I do think he's been the overall best and most consistent player during the last four years. To make it an "era" I think we'd need to see another multi-Slam year, even if only "just" two.

 

[Riotbeard]

Like everything else we should take what Toni says with a big grain of salt. When he says stuff like that he is just trying to motivate his nephew.

You are going to hear it now. I smell a complex issue here.:lolz: In case you didn't get the memo, there is only one person who can tell us what Toni meant.

Wait wait wait, but when I actually explained what Toni meant, Riotbeard replied by saying it's pretty obvious and it needed no explanation (ie Toni wasn't talking career wise). Yet you seem to imply that I was wrong about what Toni meant. So was Riotbeard wrong too? Call him out on it instead of your passive aggressive nonsense.

OH MY GOD I'm sorry. I'm bullying you. Please don't pack up and leave (again).

If you read Billie's stuff more closely, you will see that she is not making the argument you are accusing her of. All she said is novak has been the most dominant since 2011 in general. So much of rafa's accomplishments (9 slams) are before 2011. I think you are inventing a straw man.

Also which fan group isn't defensive or have a victim complex, it's just on different things. Every time he mentions the number of slams rafa has won in the last couple years, kieran has had to bring up how many rafa missed, as if you get extra credit for winning percentage by having to miss a bunch of slams. Fed fans get defensive if rafa is discussed as the goat. Novak fans think there guys has never quite gotten his due in terms of fan love, publicity.

 

[brokenshoelace]

You are going to hear it now. I smell a complex issue here.:lolz: In case you didn't get the memo, there is only one person who can tell us what Toni meant.

Wait wait wait, but when I actually explained what Toni meant, Riotbeard replied by saying it's pretty obvious and it needed no explanation (ie Toni wasn't talking career wise). Yet you seem to imply that I was wrong about what Toni meant. So was Riotbeard wrong too? Call him out on it instead of your passive aggressive nonsense.

OH MY GOD I'm sorry. I'm bullying you. Please don't pack up and leave (again).

If you read Billie's stuff more closely, you will see that she is not making the argument you are accusing her of. All she said is novak has been the most dominant since 2011 in general. So much of rafa's accomplishments (9 slams) are before 2011. I think you are inventing a straw man.

Where in the hell did she ever state the above?

She presented selective stats pertaining to points amassed since 2011, claiming that this indeed makes this the Novak era and then dug up a random Toni quote.

I know people have a tendency to just agree with their fanbase but things around here are getting absurd. Everything is so agenda driven it's actually taken the quality of the conversation down quite a bit.

 

[Front242]

Personally I think that because he's amassed so many points from playing every week for the last 3 + years, David Ferrer should be in the conversation for having his own era too. Clearly the most dominant former world number 3 I can ever recall

 

[Riotbeard]

Wait wait wait, but when I actually explained what Toni meant, Riotbeard replied by saying it's pretty obvious and it needed no explanation (ie Toni wasn't talking career wise). Yet you seem to imply that I was wrong about what Toni meant. So was Riotbeard wrong too? Call him out on it instead of your passive aggressive nonsense.

OH MY GOD I'm sorry. I'm bullying you. Please don't pack up and leave (again).

If you read Billie's stuff more closely, you will see that she is not making the argument you are accusing her of. All she said is novak has been the most dominant since 2011 in general. So much of rafa's accomplishments (9 slams) are before 2011. I think you are inventing a straw man.

Where in the hell did she ever state the above?

She presented selective stats pertaining to points amassed since 2011, claiming that this indeed makes this the Novak era and then dug up a random Toni quote.

I know people have a tendency to just agree with their fanbase but things around here are getting absurd. Everything is so agenda driven it's actually taken the quality of the conversation down quite a bit.

You are right she said most dominant thus novak era, but she did not try and make a case that novak has had in any way a better career than rafa. I don't think this is the novak era, but it's a subjective standard, so she can certainly make the claim if she wants to.

 

[Billie]

I was only talking about 2011 to today...and why would he be so upset that 1 biased fan is calling it a Nole era?uzzled I can call it anything I want, does it matter? I think Nole was the best in this period, as facts confirm it. Nobody else was so offended by it, El Dude made a nice post including other players in this so called "era".

But BS is like a bull when Nole fans say something complimentary of Nole, it enrages him and brings the worst out of him.:nono Even his handle is Nole inspired:cover

I know how to settle this, please on behalf of the worst fans in the history of all sports, accept my apologies for calling this short period of time "Nole era" and seeing how upset you are, I am not calling it that way anymore. If by any chance or luck Nole wins 2 majors next year and finishes #1, can we call it that then? Anyway, you tell us when the time comes. No hard feelings, OK.






crybaby:lolz:

 

[Billie]

You are right she said most dominant thus novak era, but she did not try and make a case that novak has had in any way a better career than rafa. I don't think this is the novak era, but it's a subjective standard, so she can certainly make the claim if she wants to.

I never claimed that Nole has had better career than Rafa or Roger, that would be silly and simply not true. I don't know what is it with some people here, their lack or comprehension, reading, or something else.uzzled

I never even commented on Toni's words so how does that person know what I think of Toni's comments. I just read it yesterday and I thought it was funny considering what has been going on here, so just thought I would light up the fire even more, yes I am guilty of that. Anyway the article is open to anybody's interpretation. I was interested to know what others thought.

And I thought I was sensitive.:laydownlaughing

 

[tented]

But yeah, "era" is semantics. I think we can say without too much controversy that 2004-07 was the Federer Era as he was so dominant for those four years. And maybe we could say 1993-97 or '98 was the Sampras Era, as he was the clear dominant player during that time (although it started to breakdown a bit in '98). But since 2008, there has been no two-year period of sustained dominance by a single player - and I would think an "era" would have to be at least two years, otherwise we might as well speak of "year."

Well put, El Dude.

Since the Federer Era, there hasn't been another well-defined era. (Where "Era" equates to more than one or two years.) It has been a mix of a handful of players peaking, then falling, then peaking again, in a cyclical manner. But no one player has had the level of dominance that Roger had from 04-07 -- the Federer Era.

 

[tented]

Toni is saying Djokovic is a more complete player. Which is a fact. Results are results though, and that's something you and your inferiority complex have to deal with. 14 > 7. That's actually double the amount, in case your math is as awful as your logic.

Do you honestly think anybody is saying novak has had a better career? And you say Novak fans are defensive:eyepop

:laydownlaughing He is a bully and that is his MO. When he doesn't have any arguments, he starts with insults.

crybaby:lolz:

Why would you criticize Broken, then do the same thing?

 

[Front242]

Seeing as things have gone downhill fast on this thread, here's an attempt at getting things back on track.

 

[Billie]

I am just telling the truth:laydownlaughing

I did not start anything about any complexes, inferiority feelings, skin types or all the other crap he pulls out over and over again with your blessing. You should criticize him as well F|at chance but go ahead and surprise me.:snigger

Did he or did he not start first with all this nonsense? What is my fault....loving Nole too much?:cover

 

[brokenshoelace]

If you read Billie's stuff more closely, you will see that she is not making the argument you are accusing her of. All she said is novak has been the most dominant since 2011 in general. So much of rafa's accomplishments (9 slams) are before 2011. I think you are inventing a straw man.

Where in the hell did she ever state the above?

She presented selective stats pertaining to points amassed since 2011, claiming that this indeed makes this the Novak era and then dug up a random Toni quote.

I know people have a tendency to just agree with their fanbase but things around here are getting absurd. Everything is so agenda driven it's actually taken the quality of the conversation down quite a bit.

You are right she said most dominant thus novak era, but she did not try and make a case that novak has had in any way a better career than rafa. I don't think this is the novak era, but it's a subjective standard, so she can certainly make the claim if she wants to.

I never said she claimed Novak has had a better career. I simply asked her, if Toni's comments are to be taken in any way for face value, then explain the discrepancy in slam count between Nadal and Novak.