Djokovic Era

El Dude

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I hear you, Broken - there is no doubt that Novak's 2011 was better than Roger's 2005. But I disagree with your assertion that it is "not particularly close." I think the numbers I listed speak for themselves. It is, at the least, closer than you're saying it is.
 

brokenshoelace

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El Dude said:
I hear you, Broken - there is no doubt that Novak's 2011 was better than Roger's 2005. But I disagree with your assertion that it is "not particularly close." I think the numbers I listed speak for themselves. It is, at the least, closer than you're saying it is.

Like I said, there are only 4 slams. Winning one more slam than the other player already makes it not too close because in today's criteria, slams are at least 80% of what counts among the great players (for better or worse, that's how it is). So when you win one more slam than the other player, you're kinda set. Like I said, it's not like Masters events where there are 9 per year.

The other thing I'll say is this: Yes, numbers wise, there's not a big discrepancy (though like I said above, it's still noticeable enough), but rather what transpired:

Between the beginning of the year and the US Open: Djokovic lost TWO matches only. That's it. He lost in the semis of Roland Garros, and the final of Cincinnati, having retired against Murray. In other words, he had won: The Australian Open, Indian Wells, Miami, Rome (he skipped Monte Carlo), Madrid, Wimbledon, Toronto and the US Open. That's a stellar 9 months to have. He went 6 months undefeated.

A lot of the losses he amassed came after the US Open when he had back issues. Immediately after the US Open, he retired against DP at the Davis Cup, and had an underwhelming fall season due to both injury and burn out. Now don't get me wrong, it's a huge testament to Roger that he was always able to keep it together at the end of the year despite winning everything beforehand, but for Djokovic, perception wise, we tend to ignore the post-US Open part of his 2011 season due to his back injury. So when we think of his dominance, we think of the everything from AO up to the US Open.
 

El Dude

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OK, because I just couldn't resist I came up with a point system for determining a season's greatness. Here's the key:

Slam results (W/F/SF/QF): 10/5/3/1
World Tour Finals (W/F/SF): 6/3/1
Masters (W/F): 5/2
ATP 500/250 Wins: 2/1
Multi-Slam Bonus: 2 GS +5, GS +10

I didn't include ranking or weeks at #1 because I figured that is akin to "double-dipping" - that this is going on results alone, which would in turn translate to #1. In other words, tournament results and rankings are two different domains that, I think, shouldn't be crossed over.

Now you may quibble with the points I assign, but it is the best I could come up with quickly. I think the biggest fault is that it probably doesn't weight Slam wins highly enough. I then looked at every year in the Big Three's careers and assigned points. Here's their seasons in order of greatness (tiebreakers are ranked by better Slam results):

2006 Federer 81
2011 Djokovic 73
2007 Federer 71
2004 Federer 66

2010 Nadal 61
2005 Federer 61
2013 Nadal 60
2012 Djokovic 52
2008 Nadal 51
2013 Djokovic 48
2014 Djokovic 47

2009 Federer 46
2005 Nadal 41
2012 Federer 39
2011 Nadal 37
2010 Federer 35
2014 Federer 35
2009 Nadal 34
2006 Nadal 31
2008 Federer 30
2012 Nadal 27
2014 Nadal 25

2007 Djokovic 27
2011 Federer 26
2003 Federer 25
2009 Djokovic 25
2010 Djokovic 15

2002 Federer 11
2013 Federer 8

2006 Djokovic 3
2001 Federer 2
2004 Nadal 1

Just a disclaimer (again): As with ALL of my statistical rankings, this is not meant to be definitive. It is just one way of seeing, one perspective that is based upon tournament results. Whenever I post something like this there's inevitably someone who is annoyed and says something to the effect, "No way, so-and-so was much better in XXXX - I saw it with my own eyes!" That may be. But the point of statistical analysis is two-fold: One, to give a talking point, a perspective or lens to look through; two, to try to step out from subjectivity ("my own eyes!") as much as possible. It isn't totally possible; for instance, there is a subjective element in the point system I created. But again--and back to the first point--it gives us something beyond John McEnroe's rants and Rod Laver's memories.

But again (and again, ad adsurdium): Don't take these statistics and rankings too literally or definitively. They're just one way of looking at things.
 

Kieran

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I think the fact that he destroyed Nadal, who'd just come off a career year, should count for triple points, or something...
 

brokenshoelace

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Kieran said:
I think the fact that he destroyed Nadal, who'd just come off a career year, should count for triple points, or something...

Not just that, but he had a ridiculous record against the top 10, including a quite outrageous record against Fedalray (ie the other 3 of the top 4) in the first 6 months alone. I never subscribed to the weak competition thing but it's hard to deny that at the top, Djokovic had far stiffer competition in 2011 than, well, most people in history. So doing as well as he did, especially with having to play these guys so often, is remarkable.
 

Kieran

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Djokovic has played about 13% of his career matches against either Nadal, Federer or Murray.

Nadal is at about 11%...
 

El Dude

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I find it interesting how, depending upon what angle or lens one uses, different players look better or worse. For instance, if you compare to Roger Federer to his peers, meaning his own generation, then he ends up looking amazing. Consider, for instance, Roger's H2H against players born within a two-year span of him (1979-83):

Roddick 21-3
Davydenko 19-2
Hewitt 18-9
Ferrer 16-0
Youzhny 15-0
Niemenin 14-0
Ljubicic 13-3
Gonzalez 12-1
Karlovic 12-1
Lopez 11-0
Robredo 11-1
Nalbandian 11-8
Blake 10-1
Malisse 10-1
Safin 10-2
Ferrero 10-3
Kohlschreiber 8-0
Fish 8-1
Verdasco 5-0
Ginepri 5-0
F Mayer 5-0
Tursunov 5-0
Coria 3-0
Melzer 3-1

Etc

Now those are twenty-four peers that were, at least, top 20 players at some point - and many much better than that. But we could say that they are if not the twenty best (other) players of Roger's generation, than twenty-four of the thirty or so best. Total record against those 24? 255-37 - that's an 87.3% winning percentage!

On the other hand, if we look at his record against the best of Nadal and Djokovic's generation he doesn't fare as well:

Djokovic 19-17
Soderling 16-1
Wawrinka 15-2
Del Potro 15-5
Gasquet 13-2
Berdych 12-6
Murray 12-11
Tsonga 11-5
Seppi 10-0
Nadal 10-23
Monfils 8-3
Tipsarevic 6-0
Ancic 6-1
Almagro 5-0
Cilic 5-1
Simon 5-2
Monaco 4-0
Fognini 3-0
Gulbis 3-3

That's 178-82, or 68.5%. Now if we tease that a part, Roger is 41-51 (44.6%) against the three best players of that generation and 137-31 (81.5%) against everyone else. In other words, while there is some decline against the younger generation overall, it is mainly against the very best of that generation. I wonder if this is true of all greats - if they maintain their dominance over the next generation, with a slight down-turn, except for against the elite of the younger generation, whom they struggle against.

We just can't know that about Novak and Rafa (and Andy) because there is no elite of a younger generation. Raonic, Nishikori, and Dimitrov are the best of the next generation, and they are nowhere near the level of Nadal-Djokovic-Murray. We can only hope that Kyrgios-Coric-Zverev will be! But regardless, Rafa, Novak, and Andy will never have to face the equivalent of themselves relative to Roger.

Anyhow, just musing and researching aloud here.
 

Billie

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JesuslookslikeBorg said:
what is domination anyway ?..winning more big tourneys ? or just majors ?, can we really have slight domination/semi domination/non dominant domination./domination-free dominance ??.

2014 djokovic "only" won one major, so sounds non dominant..but then we see he also won 4 masters titles and the wtf and was year end no1. looking at it that way it sounds more dominant.

Well I am talking about the performance throughout the years starting from January of 2011 till now. He has won most majors, most titles, been #1 much longer than anybody else, earned 14,000+ more points than the next competitors, who are not just regular tennis players but 2 goats!!! That alone should give him extra points.;)

Nole is one of the favourites for any tournament that he enters, his matches are regularly in the top of ATP's best matches of the year.

To me, it looks like he has been the most dominant player in the last 4 years, but if somebody can make a case for another player during this same timeframe, they are welcome.:angel:
 

Billie

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Also I am touched by somebody's concern about my skin. I try to extra moisturize during winter time, so I should be good. But the concern is appreciated.;)
 

Billie

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Here is an article about uncle Toni and what he had to say about Nole:

"Rafael has won more titles than Novak Djokovic, but speaking merely about tennis and about the game, Rafa has to be considered slightly lower than Djokovic. The Serb is such a good player that he is as close as you can get to Roger Federer".

http://www.tennisworldusa.org/Toni-Novak-Djokovic-a-Better-Player-Than-Rafael-Nadal-And-Federer-articolo21423.html
 

El Dude

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So Toni basically said:

1. Federer
2. Djokovic
3. Nadal

Wonder what Rafa things about that.
 

brokenshoelace

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Billie said:
Here is an article about uncle Toni and what he had to say about Nole:

"Rafael has won more titles than Novak Djokovic, but speaking merely about tennis and about the game, Rafa has to be considered slightly lower than Djokovic. The Serb is such a good player that he is as close as you can get to Roger Federer".

http://www.tennisworldusa.org/Toni-Novak-Djokovic-a-Better-Player-Than-Rafael-Nadal-And-Federer-articolo21423.html

Toni is saying Djokovic is a more complete player. Which is a fact. Results are results though, and that's something you and your inferiority complex have to deal with. 14 > 7. That's actually double the amount, in case your math is as awful as your logic.
 

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El Dude said:
I find it interesting how, depending upon what angle or lens one uses, different players look better or worse. For instance, if you compare to Roger Federer to his peers, meaning his own generation, then he ends up looking amazing

I've pointed this fact out a thousand times. Generally speaking, a player almost always loses h2hs against the generation right after him/her. It's easy to see why. Most players don't come on the scene until they are 20, and their prime is from 24-26. That means they don't get to play a lot of young players (b/c the young players aren't making finals) but however they do get to play them a lot when they are past their prime.

From that point on, its a skewed relationship. eg 25 beats 30, 30 beats 35, 35 beats 40. This creates a biased distribution.

In tennis history this has almost always happened, (Laver lost to Connors, Connors lost to Borg, Borg began losing to McEnroe but retired before it got worst, McEnroe with Lendl, Lendl with Sampras, Samprass with Hewitt, Federer With Hewitt, Nadal with Federer, Djokovic with Nadal) except with very few exceptions. Players that happened to peak very young, and retire quite young (eg Borg) are the exceptions. And of course there exist a few 'lost' generations that happen to for one reason or another, underperform.
 

Riotbeard

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Broken_Shoelace said:
Billie said:
Here is an article about uncle Toni and what he had to say about Nole:

"Rafael has won more titles than Novak Djokovic, but speaking merely about tennis and about the game, Rafa has to be considered slightly lower than Djokovic. The Serb is such a good player that he is as close as you can get to Roger Federer".

http://www.tennisworldusa.org/Toni-Novak-Djokovic-a-Better-Player-Than-Rafael-Nadal-And-Federer-articolo21423.html

Toni is saying Djokovic is a more complete player. Which is a fact. Results are results though, and that's something you and your inferiority complex have to deal with. 14 > 7. That's actually double the amount, in case your math is as awful as your logic.

Do you honestly think anybody is saying novak has had a better career? And you say Novak fans are defensive:eyepop
 

El Dude

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Exactly, Haelfix.

I have a series of articles on the back-burner that are based upon what I call "generational theory," that A) tennis generations are best viewed as roughly five years in length, and B) while all lines are arbitrary, the most useful demarcation of generations is the last year of the decade, not the first, and C) A generation is best centered on its best player(s). So in other words, Federer's generation of peers are those players born from 1979-83. Roger's birth year is 1981, thus the center point, with a five year span. That also lines up nicely with Nadal's generation being centered on his birth year, 1986, from 1984-88.

I don't want to steal thunder from my blog articles, but the point of bringing this up here is that it is useful to see what is ahead. We have two post-Nadal generations already on tour:

1989-93: Nishikori, Raonic, Dimitrov, Tomic, Goffin, Janowicz, Schwartzman, Vesely, Thiem, etc
1994-98: Kyrgios, Pouille, Nishioka, Saville, Coric, Kokkinakis, Zverev, Garin, Tiafoe, etc.

It seems clear that the 89-93 generation is the weakest in quite a few generations, at least back until Gustavo Kuerten's (born 1976, spanning 74-78). To find a similarly weak generation you have to go all the way back to Arthur Ashe's, born 1939-43.

Now here's the tricky thing. Ashe was the best player of his generation, but there really were no other standouts. The only other Slam winners were William Bowery and Chuck McKinley, both of whom won only a single Slam and both within the weak amateur era of the 60s when the best players (Laver and Rosewall in particular) were playing professionally. But here's the question: Was "Generation Ashe" particularly weak, or was it simply that the two generations on either side were just so strong? Consider:

1944-48: Newcombe, Nastase, Kodes, Smith, Okker, Roche
1939-43: Ashe, McKinley, Bowery, Drysdale
1934-38: Rosewall, Laver, Hoad, Emerson, Santana, Gimeno, Stolle

The prior generation was one of the very greatest in the game and both Rosewall and Laver remained dominant into their 30s, when the younger generation would have been peaking. By the time Laver faded (and it was quick, after he won all four Slams in 1969 he never won another), Rosewall was still playing strongly, but you had the next generation--in particular Newcombe, Nastase, Kodes, and Smith--coming of age. In other words, it wasn't Ashe's generation that stole the crowns from Rosewall and Laver, it was Newcombe's, with Newcombe, Nastase, Kodes and Smith (and Rosewall) being the dominant players of the early Open Era before Connors, Borg and Vilas took over in the mid-70s.

So in other words, the generation prior to Ashe's was so good that they lasted so long, and Ashe's generation wasn't good enough to compete once the next generation started peaking. So it was a bit of a lost generation.

And the same could be said of Generation Kuerten, although less so. Kuerten's generation included Yevgeny Kafelnikov, Marcelo Rios, and numerous one-Slam wonders like Moya, Johansson, Guadio, as well as near-elites like Corretja, Enqvist, Medvedev, Philippoussis, and Haas (yes, Tommy is that old - part of Generation Kuerten). This generation won some Slams, but only 8 - compared to 32 in the prior generation that included Sampras, Agassi, and Courier, not to mention Chang, Rafter, Bruguera, Ivanisevic, and Krajicek.

And of course by the time Sampras' generation started slowing down around the turn of the century, when Kuerten's generation should have reigned, you had the next great generation - Generation Federer - rising up, starting with Marat Safin and Lleyton Hewitt, but also Andy Roddick, Juan Carlos Ferrero, and of course Roger Federer.

So I imagine that we're seeing another lost generation, one that is skipped in the passing of the baton from one generation of greats to the next. We don't yet know who among the youngest generation will be a true great, although teenagers Nick Kyrgios, Borna Coric, and Alexander Zverev seem the most likely candidates--all having drawn varying degrees of attention this year--with curious looks in the direction of Garin, Kokkinakis, Tiafoe, and Donaldson. Actually 2014 could be remembered when the next great players all started getting some attention.

So by my reckoning, this will be the third Lost Generation in the last century or so of tennis history because before Ashe's generation, every generation had at least one great player. 1929-33 was pretty weak but had Tony Trabert who was borderline great, but before that you have to go all the way back to 1894-98 in which Bill Johnston was the best player born, and he was pretty damn good.

OK, got to go to bed. All of this will be part of a series of blog articles that looks at different tennis generations, including tennis generations as a whole, the "Lost Generations," and a focus on Generation Federer.
 

brokenshoelace

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Riotbeard said:
Broken_Shoelace said:
Billie said:
Here is an article about uncle Toni and what he had to say about Nole:

"Rafael has won more titles than Novak Djokovic, but speaking merely about tennis and about the game, Rafa has to be considered slightly lower than Djokovic. The Serb is such a good player that he is as close as you can get to Roger Federer".

http://www.tennisworldusa.org/Toni-Novak-Djokovic-a-Better-Player-Than-Rafael-Nadal-And-Federer-articolo21423.html

Toni is saying Djokovic is a more complete player. Which is a fact. Results are results though, and that's something you and your inferiority complex have to deal with. 14 > 7. That's actually double the amount, in case your math is as awful as your logic.

Do you honestly think anybody is saying novak has had a better career? And you say Novak fans are defensive:eyepop

Please, take shots at fans for what they're guilty of. Rafa fan shot-taking 101: Excuse making, injuries, etc...

The inferiority complex and defensiveness are all about Novak fans.

Federer fans have the arrogance.

It's all good, we all have our flaws. I wasn't getting defensive. I was explaining Toni's comments. You'd think they'd be obvious and everybody would understand them, but then again, we actually have people proclaiming this the Novak era because he's amassed the most points since 2011.
 

DarthFed

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Like everything else we should take what Toni says with a big grain of salt. When he says stuff like that he is just trying to motivate his nephew.
 

Billie

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Riotbeard said:
Broken_Shoelace said:
Billie said:
Here is an article about uncle Toni and what he had to say about Nole:

"Rafael has won more titles than Novak Djokovic, but speaking merely about tennis and about the game, Rafa has to be considered slightly lower than Djokovic. The Serb is such a good player that he is as close as you can get to Roger Federer".

http://www.tennisworldusa.org/Toni-Novak-Djokovic-a-Better-Player-Than-Rafael-Nadal-And-Federer-articolo21423.html

Toni is saying Djokovic is a more complete player. Which is a fact. Results are results though, and that's something you and your inferiority complex have to deal with. 14 > 7. That's actually double the amount, in case your math is as awful as your logic.

Do you honestly think anybody is saying novak has had a better career? And you say Novak fans are defensive:eyepop

:laydownlaughing He is a bully and that is his MO. When he doesn't have any arguments, he starts with insults. From time to time somebody will PM him to tell him to tone it down, but we have a saying: wolf can change his skin but not his nature, so not a lot can be done in his case.;)

What the heck inferiority complex is in my case? I can't talk about my favourite player here and make case for him that he is #1 player for most of the last 4 years and a great player. Gee..:rolleyes:
 

Billie

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DarthFed said:
Like everything else we should take what Toni says with a big grain of salt. When he says stuff like that he is just trying to motivate his nephew.

You are going to hear it now. I smell a complex issue here.:lolz: In case you didn't get the memo, there is only one person who can tell us what Toni meant.;)
 

brokenshoelace

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Billie said:
Riotbeard said:
Broken_Shoelace said:
Toni is saying Djokovic is a more complete player. Which is a fact. Results are results though, and that's something you and your inferiority complex have to deal with. 14 > 7. That's actually double the amount, in case your math is as awful as your logic.

Do you honestly think anybody is saying novak has had a better career? And you say Novak fans are defensive:eyepop

:laydownlaughing He is a bully and that is his MO. When he doesn't have any arguments, he starts with insults. From time to time somebody will PM him to tell him to tone it down, but we have a saying: wolf can change his skin but not his nature, so not a lot can be done in his case.;)

What the heck inferiority complex is in my case? I can't talk about my favourite player here and make case for him that he is #1 player for most of the last 4 years and a great player. Gee..:rolleyes:

Oh my god. The sensitivity. You're right, I didn't have any arguments when I pointed out that winning 1 slam per year does not make an era. Or when I said that points tally isn't the end all be all since you can reach every final, not win tournaments, but be very consistent and amass points.

Inferiority complex: It's simple. Novak was in the shadow for Nadal and Federer for so long that you guys are desperate to put him on their level. Now that he became the best in the world, it's not enough. You want to put him on their level career-wise. He's not.

Arguments. No insults. Jesus.

And for the love of god stop playing the bullying card. It's an insult to people who actually get bullied.