Djokovic Era

[Billie]

In these years 2011, 2012, 2013, 2014 and so far in 2015 Nadal has been just an average player on all other surfaces other than clay.

Really?

2011 he reached the Wimbledon and USO finals, the finals of IW and Miami.

Yeah, 2011 was one of the best years in Nadal's career. There was only 1 player better than him...you know

But seriously, I am not saying that Cilic and Wawrinka were better players during this time. Nadal is clearly much better than them during the course of this period. I was merely comparing the big wins among them.

 

[El Dude]

I agree with much of what you are saying, Billie, but think the word "average" is over-stated and inaccurate. As Kieran pointed out, Rafa was far from average off clay in 2011-12 and 2014 - he was still very, very good.

Kieran, as to whether Rafa was the "best player in the world on hards" in 2013, let's look at the actual results:

Rafa: 1 Slam, 3 Masters, WTF finalist
Novak: 1 Slam (+1 Final), 2 Masters, WTF title, 2 ATP 500s

Actually, Novak had the better record on hard courts in 2013 - and by a solid margin. If you play process of elimination, you have the difference their 2013 hard court record being:

Rafa: 1 Masters, WTF finalist
Novak: Slam finalist, WTF title, 2 ATP 500s

Novak's Slam finalist edges Rafa's WTF finalist, as does his WTF title over Rafa's Master, and then you have Novak's two ATP 500s to seal he deal.

So clearly Novak was the best hard court player in 2013 - as he has been every year since 2011 - with Rafa number two.

 

[Kieran]

In these years 2011, 2012, 2013, 2014 and so far in 2015 Nadal has been just an average player on all other surfaces other than clay.

Really?

2011 he reached the Wimbledon and USO finals, the finals of IW and Miami.

Yeah, 2011 was one of the best years in Nadal's career. There was only 1 player better than him...you know

But seriously, I am not saying that Cilic and Wawrinka were better players during this time. Nadal is clearly much better than them during the course of this period. I was merely comparing the big wins among them.

You weren't, you were trying to score cheap points.

Fact is, if we were to "compare big wins among them" the way you did, we would have to conclude that Novak has only been as good on clay as Gulbis, and JJ. You see what I done there?

Exactly...

 

[Kieran]

Yeah, now 2nd places mean something. Well he needed the time off in order to try to do his best in chosen tournaments. If he had played in Australia that year, I hardly doubt he would have been able to post the results he did later in the year.

BTW: ITF did not consider Nadal the best player in 2013, it was Nole as well:clap

Actually, 2nd best does mean something: it means you're doing better than "average".

And he didn't need "the time off in order to try to do his best in chosen tournaments." He needed time off because he was injured. You might have missed that, though it's surprising if you did because you tend to post when Novak is doing well...

 

[Carol]

My goodness, to each his own theme
The only thing I can say it's I want to see a healthy Nadal, then we'll see who is going to dominate or not
I can imagine if Delpo would be helphier how many results would be different for now too...
It's a shame that the injuries and surgeries don't allow the players to show their best game, it has to be very frustrated for them having a superb game and also the capacity to get more achievements and they can't make it due to be out of the courts for long time and later taking time to be fitted to be able to beat anyone.
We'll see what is going on these next years but I hope to see these next tournaments better and more
competitive matches and finals than I've seen these last months including London

Reading again this comment ........I meant 'if Delpo would be HEALTHIER' and not helphier (only me lol)

 

[Kieran]

My goodness, to each his own theme
The only thing I can say it's I want to see a healthy Nadal, then we'll see who is going to dominate or not
I can imagine if Delpo would be helphier how many results would be different for now too...
It's a shame that the injuries and surgeries don't allow the players to show their best game, it has to be very frustrated for them having a superb game and also the capacity to get more achievements and they can't make it due to be out of the courts for long time and later taking time to be fitted to be able to beat anyone.
We'll see what is going on these next years but I hope to see these next tournaments better and more
competitive matches and finals than I've seen these last months including London

Reading again this comment ........I meant 'if Delpo would be HEALTHIER' and not helphier (only me lol)

I dunno, Carol, he could use all the "help" he needs... :snicker

 

[Carol]

My goodness, to each his own theme
The only thing I can say it's I want to see a healthy Nadal, then we'll see who is going to dominate or not
I can imagine if Delpo would be helphier how many results would be different for now too...
It's a shame that the injuries and surgeries don't allow the players to show their best game, it has to be very frustrated for them having a superb game and also the capacity to get more achievements and they can't make it due to be out of the courts for long time and later taking time to be fitted to be able to beat anyone.
We'll see what is going on these next years but I hope to see these next tournaments better and more
competitive matches and finals than I've seen these last months including London

Reading again this comment ........I meant 'if Delpo would be HEALTHIER' and not helphier (only me lol)

I dunno, Carol, he could use all the "help" he needs... :snicker

 

[Billie]

Yeah, now 2nd places mean something. Well he needed the time off in order to try to do his best in chosen tournaments. If he had played in Australia that year, I hardly doubt he would have been able to post the results he did later in the year.

BTW: ITF did not consider Nadal the best player in 2013, it was Nole as well:clap

Actually, 2nd best does mean something: it means you're doing better than "average".

And he didn't need "the time off in order to try to do his best in chosen tournaments." He needed time off because he was injured. You might have missed that, though it's surprising if you did because you tend to post when Novak is doing well...

Ha ha...cheap shots...you should have learned by now that I really don't care what others say about posting here.

It is a very well documented fact that fans of a player who wins a tournaments post more in the aftermath, Nadal, Federer and Nole fans alike.

I don't even want to attempt to justify my posting or not posting here, that is my right. My free time is my business and if I don't want to post here, that is up to me. Do you really think I want to argue with Nadal fans about silly things over and over again? It gets exhausting considering I've had to do it since 2010.:snicker By the way there are nice posters here who are Nole and Federer fans and it is nice to catch up with them from time to time.

I usually let other players fans have their day in the sun after their player wins and would never create a trolling thread or post trolling things to diminish their achievements in a way that some Nadal fans do. If I have nothing nice to say, I usually don't say anything. I think that is much better attitude, don't you agree?

Even if I don't post here, I can assure you that I follow all the action closely and watch matches.

Don't worry Kieran, I won't have much time to post here in the next few months so it should be all back to normal. And I can bet that if Nadal wins FO, there will be a whole bunch of his fans here with dozens of articles, threads and all the accolades that come with it.

 

[Carol]

Yeah, now 2nd places mean something. Well he needed the time off in order to try to do his best in chosen tournaments. If he had played in Australia that year, I hardly doubt he would have been able to post the results he did later in the year.

BTW: ITF did not consider Nadal the best player in 2013, it was Nole as well:clap

Actually, 2nd best does mean something: it means you're doing better than "average".

And he didn't need "the time off in order to try to do his best in chosen tournaments." He needed time off because he was injured. You might have missed that, though it's surprising if you did because you tend to post when Novak is doing well...

Ha ha...cheap shots...you should have learned by now that I really don't care what others say about posting here.

It is a very well documented fact that fans of a player who wins a tournaments post more in the aftermath, Nadal, Federer and Nole fans alike.

I don't even want to attempt to justify my posting or not posting here, that is my right. My free time is my business and if I don't want to post here, that is up to me. Do you really think I want to argue with Nadal fans about silly things over and over again? It gets exhausting considering I've had to do it since 2010.:snicker By the way there are nice posters here who are Nole and Federer fans and it is nice to catch up with them from time to time.

I usually let other players fans have their day in the sun after their player wins and would never create a trolling thread or post trolling things to diminish their achievements in a way that some Nadal fans do. If I have nothing nice to say, I usually don't say anything. I think that is much better attitude, don't you agree

Even if I don't post here, I can assure you that I follow all the action closely and watch matches.

Don't worry Kieran, I won't have much time to post here in the next few months so it should be all back to normal. And I can bet that if Nadal wins FO, there will be a whole bunch of his fans here with dozens of articles, threads and all the accolades that come with it.

Can you imagine then IF Novak would win the RG for the first time what would happen here and there? what his fans would say with dozens of articles, threads and all accolades that come with it? :lolz:
And talking about trolls posting trolling things it seems that you don't read too much another's blogs and what some Novak's fans say......

 

[Riotbeard]

Glad to see we have replaced supposed Novak Fanboying with a combination of Rafa and Novak Fanboying... :snicker

 

[brokenshoelace]

In these years 2011, 2012, 2013, 2014 and so far in 2015 Nadal has been just an average player on all other surfaces other than clay. In this period of time, he has won as many off clay slams like Federer, Wawrinka and Cilic.

2013? The year in which he won 3 hard court masters and 1 hard court slam? He actually did better on hards than he did on clay.

2014? AO final. Miami final.

2011? IW and Miami finals. Wimbledon final. US Open final.

That's like saying Novak was an average player anywhere outside of hards in 2012 (ignoring he reached the MC final, the Rome final, and the FO final, all on clay), or an average player outside of hards in 2013, or an average player outside of grass in 2014.

Might want to rethink those standards.

 

[brokenshoelace]

I agree with much of what you are saying, Billie, but think the word "average" is over-stated and inaccurate. As Kieran pointed out, Rafa was far from average off clay in 2011-12 and 2014 - he was still very, very good.

Kieran, as to whether Rafa was the "best player in the world on hards" in 2013, let's look at the actual results:

Rafa: 1 Slam, 3 Masters, WTF finalist
Novak: 1 Slam (+1 Final), 2 Masters, WTF title, 2 ATP 500s

Actually, Novak had the better record on hard courts in 2013 - and by a solid margin. If you play process of elimination, you have the difference their 2013 hard court record being:

Rafa: 1 Masters, WTF finalist
Novak: Slam finalist, WTF title, 2 ATP 500s

Novak's Slam finalist edges Rafa's WTF finalist, as does his WTF title over Rafa's Master, and then you have Novak's two ATP 500s to seal he deal.

So clearly Novak was the best hard court player in 2013 - as he has been every year since 2011 - with Rafa number two.

Nadal was the best player in the world on hards in 2013.

 

[El Dude]

Nadal was the best player in the world on hards in 2013.

So you're wilfully ignoring the actual results? Novak had better results on hards than Rafa in 2013.

 

[Carol]

I agree with much of what you are saying, Billie, but think the word "average" is over-stated and inaccurate. As Kieran pointed out, Rafa was far from average off clay in 2011-12 and 2014 - he was still very, very good.

Kieran, as to whether Rafa was the "best player in the world on hards" in 2013, let's look at the actual results:

Rafa: 1 Slam, 3 Masters, WTF finalist
Novak: 1 Slam (+1 Final), 2 Masters, WTF title, 2 ATP 500s

Actually, Novak had the better record on hard courts in 2013 - and by a solid margin. If you play process of elimination, you have the difference their 2013 hard court record being:

Rafa: 1 Masters, WTF finalist
Novak: Slam finalist, WTF title, 2 ATP 500s

Novak's Slam finalist edges Rafa's WTF finalist, as does his WTF title over Rafa's Master, and then you have Novak's two ATP 500s to seal he deal.

So clearly Novak was the best hard court player in 2013 - as he has been every year since 2011 - with Rafa number two.

Nadal was the best player in the world on hards in 2013.

Incredible what Rafa did in 2013 after to be 7 months out of the courts. He won IW, Montreal, Cincinnati, USO and also RG and several more tournaments on clay :woohoos:

 

[MargaretMcAleer]

Nadal was the best player in the world on hards in 2013.

So you're wilfully ignoring the actual results? Novak had better results on hards than Rafa in 2013.

Novak had a chance to win his 4th MS title at Cincinnati in 2013?

Also Rafa joined Andy Roddick,Pat Rafter as the only 3 players in the history that have won the 2 leading HC tournaments and the USO final in 2013,winning Rogers Cup and Cincinnati and the USO,his 2nd USO title? I think that stat stands alone dosent it?

 

[brokenshoelace]

Nadal was the best player in the world on hards in 2013.

So you're wilfully ignoring the actual results? Novak had better results on hards than Rafa in 2013.

No, I'm just actually going beyond the numbers because it's not always that simple. For instance, Nadal did not play the AO. That's not Novak's fault, but that affects perception in hindsight. Why does it affect perception? Because Nadal then came back, played in the same hard court tournaments Novak did between March and September, and went undefeated...beating Novak twice along the way, one of which being in a slam final.

Yeah, I'm sorry, raw data alone doesn't always tell the full story. I like and respect what you do but you need to sometimes be able to see beyond the numbers.

Nadal went 4 undefeated tournaments on hards (3 masters and a slam). There was no doubt in anyone's mind, including Novak (since he commented on it) who was the best hard court player in the world throughout that time.

Novak did have an extremely strong end to the season. However, fair or not, that time of the season has historically somehow counted for less, likely due to the absence of a major.

 

[El Dude]

Don't be so condescending, Broken. I've said countless times that numbers don't tell the whole story. But they tell a lot and you're just looking at what you want to see and ignoring the other side of the story, or at least skewing it to fit your view of things.

Sorry, but Shanghai and Paris count. Also, you can't ignore the Australian Open just because Rafa was out, or Miami, or the last few months with Shanghai, Paris, and the World Tour Finals. So yeah, Rafa was great on hards - for six months. But not for 11 months. You can't just assume he would have won the AO and Miami, and he certainly didn't win Shanghai, Paris, and the WTF. At the least it isn't so clear who was best on hards in 2013 because 2013 isn't six months; the season is 11 months.

 

[Kirijax]

Not a Nadal fan myself, but IMO you have to give the 2013 HC crown to Nadal. What he did in August-September of that year was amazing. But Djokovic is right there too. How about someone adding up the HC ATP points both players won that year? Maybe someone did that and I missed it...

 

[Carol]

In 2013 Rafa Played less than 10 months to begin with. He played an incredible year and was the best one on HC and clay without any doubts
I'm not a Novak's fan but I have to say that since 2011 which was his best and unrepeatable year he is (until now) the best player in indoor but outdoor is a different story, I would say he is one of the best

 

[Kirijax]

IMO, Nadal was injured so that's on him. If he is too hurt to play, then Djokovic wins because he had the stronger body and was able to play. Nadal shouldn't get a pass just because he was out with an injury.