Cincinnati Final: John Isner vs. Rafael Nadal

[Kieran]

No difference between 5 and 7 and I guarantee the top 3 are hoping to see Roger in their QF instead of DP.

It's a good question. Remember back in 2008 we used to ask, which half of the draw will Novak land in? Now things have gotten so tight, we ask, which quarter of the draw will Roger and del Potro land in. I think the top 3 would like to face neither of them (providing they all get that far, which is never guaranteed)...

 

[imjimmy]

UsOpen 2010 and the fall season that year: Nadal served incredible (more variety, higher mph, higher peak speed), won more cheap points on serve,

I think his serve was quite fast in Cincy, though. I thought I saw a missed first serve at 125. Didn't miss by much, either...

Kieran - I was looking at the average speeds. He rolled quite a few in. His peak may be 120-125, but lots of 100-115 mph's. He's serving well, but 2010 fall was something else. Back then he was winning a lot of cheap points on unreturnable serves, and 1-2 combos. His serve avg was between 115-120 mph then and the peaks were in the 130s. I also believed he had more variety - outwide in the deuce court and down the T in the ad.

 

[zalvar]

I missed this but grats Rafa woo hoo!

 

[honey1269]

No question Nadal is a great player but I wish they would qiut referring to his time off to heal his knee asbeing a medical time out. We hear time and time again how remarkable it is that he is playing such awesome tennis (which he is) after his time off when Del Potro did not come back so quickly and ready. Nadal DID NOT have surgery. There is a big difference. I still think much of the time was to heal his ego from losing so early at Wimbledon, to work on his game and figure out how to get back big points after the lay off.

 

[DarthFed]

No difference between 5 and 7 and I guarantee the top 3 are hoping to see Roger in their QF instead of DP.

It's a good question. Remember back in 2008 we used to ask, which half of the draw will Novak land in? Now things have gotten so tight, we ask, which quarter of the draw will Roger and del Potro land in. I think the top 3 would like to face neither of them (providing they all get that far, which is never guaranteed)...

They all probably rather see Berdych than those 2 except for maybe Murray. Who is going to be seeded 8? Probably no one that is a threat

 

[Front242]

Isner - I'm So Not Elite Really.
Nadal - Nearly Always Delivering Agony Lately.

Nadal's by far the favourite going into the US Open based on everyone else's form really even if it's his least favourite surface. He looked pretty damn happy there saying "Go, go go!" after the win and is back to number 2. An absolutely stellar year. I know Winston Salem is Isner's hometown tournament and he's defending a title there, but if he has any sense he'll pull out.

 

[rafanoy1992]

No difference between 5 and 7 and I guarantee the top 3 are hoping to see Roger in their QF instead of DP.

It's a good question. Remember back in 2008 we used to ask, which half of the draw will Novak land in? Now things have gotten so tight, we ask, which quarter of the draw will Roger and del Potro land in. I think the top 3 would like to face neither of them (providing they all get that far, which is never guaranteed)...

They all probably rather see Berdych than those 2 except for maybe Murray. Who is going to be seeded 8? Probably no one that is a threat

Darth, Wawrinka will be seeded 8th at the US Open. So, yeah you are right that he is no threat

 

[calitennis127]

Finally, I don't think this is the best hardcourt tennis Nadal's ever played. That's a bit much. UsOpen 2010 and the fall season that year: Nadal served incredible (more variety, higher mph, higher peak speed), won more cheap points on serve, moved better and also played more offensively than he is now. Not to mention he was way quicker then.

Nonsense.

No way did Nadal "move better" in the fall of 2010. No way he was "way quicker". That is pure nonsense. In 2010 Nadal lost to Murray in Toronto and Baghdatis in Cincinnati. His draw at the 2010 US Open was a joke. He played Simon, an exhausted Verdasco (in cold weather no less), and an exhausted Youzhny. The myth of the unplayable 2010 US Open Nadal never ceases to amaze me.

But the main point, no, you are completely wrong that Nadal moved better in 2010 or was "way quicker". That is you just looking at his age and the traditional tennis age parameters instead of the play on the court.

 

[calitennis127]

No question Nadal is a great player but I wish they would qiut referring to his time off to heal his knee asbeing a medical time out. We hear time and time again how remarkable it is that he is playing such awesome tennis (which he is) after his time off when Del Potro did not come back so quickly and ready. Nadal DID NOT have surgery. There is a big difference. I still think much of the time was to heal his ego from losing so early at Wimbledon, to work on his game and figure out how to get back big points after the lay off.

Interesting theory. Not sure that I completely buy it but I definitely think there is truth to what you are saying.

 

[imjimmy]

Finally, I don't think this is the best hardcourt tennis Nadal's ever played. That's a bit much. UsOpen 2010 and the fall season that year: Nadal served incredible (more variety, higher mph, higher peak speed), won more cheap points on serve, moved better and also played more offensively than he is now. Not to mention he was way quicker then.

Nonsense.

No way did Nadal "move better" in the fall of 2010. No way he was "way quicker". That is pure nonsense. In 2010 Nadal lost to Murray in Toronto and Baghdatis in Cincinnati. His draw at the 2010 US Open was a joke. He played Simon, an exhausted Verdasco (in cold weather no less), and an exhausted Youzhny. The myth of the unplayable 2010 US Open Nadal never ceases to amaze me.

But the main point, no, you are completely wrong that Nadal moved better in 2010 or was "way quicker". That is you just looking at his age and the traditional tennis age parameters instead of the play on the court.

I never said Nadal was "unplayable" at the UsOpen 2010 EVER. But still, that was some of the best hardcourt tennis he's played in his career. Even you (grudgingly) admitted once that Nadal was playing offensive tennis and deserved it. I think Nadal is playing really well right now, but definitely not the best he's played ever. That's ridiculous. He's not been the career-best at clay, hardcourts or grass this year.

As for the speed, he was definitely quicker then. Speed does go down with age and mileage whichever way you look at it. Watch Nadal through the years. His speed before 2008 was ridiculous. He was a wall and could defend forever. He lost a little after the injury in 2009, but was still quicker in 2010 than he is now. I am not saying Nadal cannot run as fast, if he wanted to now. But I don't think he can consistently defend as much and maintain his intensity as he used to. He's played what 700+ matches, I guess? The mileage does catchup. Especially with his brand of tennis.

 

[Kieran]

No question Nadal is a great player but I wish they would qiut referring to his time off to heal his knee asbeing a medical time out. We hear time and time again how remarkable it is that he is playing such awesome tennis (which he is) after his time off when Del Potro did not come back so quickly and ready. Nadal DID NOT have surgery. There is a big difference. I still think much of the time was to heal his ego from losing so early at Wimbledon, to work on his game and figure out how to get back big points after the lay off.

Interesting theory. Not sure that I completely buy it but I definitely think there is truth to what you are saying.

Come off it, Cali, this is one of Front's theories - one among many (silent ban, small injury, sulk, etc) - and it's beneath you. I know you don't like Rafa, but this is beneath you, bro. Keep punching, but no silly low blows...

 

[Front242]

No question Nadal is a great player but I wish they would qiut referring to his time off to heal his knee asbeing a medical time out. We hear time and time again how remarkable it is that he is playing such awesome tennis (which he is) after his time off when Del Potro did not come back so quickly and ready. Nadal DID NOT have surgery. There is a big difference. I still think much of the time was to heal his ego from losing so early at Wimbledon, to work on his game and figure out how to get back big points after the lay off.

Interesting theory. Not sure that I completely buy it but I definitely think there is truth to what you are saying.

Come off it, Cali, this is one of Front's theories - one among many (silent ban, small injury, sulk, etc) - and it's beneath you. I know you don't like Rafa, but this is beneath you, bro. Keep punching, but no silly low blows...

Thanks for including me on this for no reason. I'd like to add though that regardless, there are many people out there who think this. I also see nothing wrong with the premise given it hardly took the full 7 months to heal his knee so he was definitely practicing. His backhand in particular was being exploited a lot by Djokovic but nowhere near as much since the comeback. When did he find the time to practice this shot if he was sitting watching tv and not practicing? Anyway, no need to bring me into this but there's all I'm saying on the issue since you dragged me into it. And nice to label me again as the only one making silly low blows when I didn't say anything at all for probably over 1.5 years. A bit like a little kid's antics really and especially since I just congratulated Nadal's win a few posts back. Pfff.

 

[Kieran]

:snigger

Well done Front, you can always be relied upon, like a fish in rainy weather, to swim to the surface with your gob open and gnash on the bait.

Anyway, that kind of theory is one I only ever saw you put forward, more recently than 1.5 years, by the way, but however, it's silly season stuff and Cali needn't rubber-stamp it (Honey neither)...

 

[Front242]

:snigger

Well done Front, you can always be relied upon, like a fish in rainy weather, to swim to the surface with your gob open and gnash on the bait.

Anyway, that kind of theory is one I only ever saw you put forward, more recently than 1.5 years, by the way, but however, it's silly season stuff and Cali needn't rubber-stamp it (Honey neither)...

Why, just 'cos you don't agree with it it's silly? The most likely thing there is clearly that, yes, he was using the extended to break to seriously practice hard on his game. The rest I wasn't commenting on in my post above at all but he hardly seriously improved his BH off the court.

 

[Kieran]

Why, just 'cos you don't agree with it it's silly? The most likely thing there is clearly that, yes, he was using the extended to break to seriously practice hard on his game. The rest I wasn't commenting on in my post above at all but he hardly seriously improved his BH off the court.

He did, but his backhand wasn't great when he returned. In fact, he's hitting it better now than ever before this year.

It's silly because the anti-Rafa reasons for his break just morph depending on the occasion (silent ban, sulk, you've even agreed he was injured, etc)...

 

[Front242]

Why, just 'cos you don't agree with it it's silly? The most likely thing there is clearly that, yes, he was using the extended to break to seriously practice hard on his game. The rest I wasn't commenting on in my post above at all but he hardly seriously improved his BH off the court.

He did, but his backhand wasn't great when he returned. In fact, he's hitting it better now than ever before this year.

It's silly because the anti-Rafa reasons for his break just morph depending on the occasion (silent ban, sulk, you've even agreed he was injured, etc)...

I said he took time off to heal aches and pains and you know this as he himself even referred to it as pain in his knee. So if he calls it pain in his knee so will I. You just said yourself he's hitting his BH better than ever this year lol? So, what exactly did Honey say that was wrong and that I also backed up? He clearly knew his BH was a big liability against the guy who had his number in 2011, a certain Novak Djokovic, and by rectifying that deficiency as he has, they are now much more even. He clearly spent an awful lot of time working on that shot during the 7 month break he took and that is all I'm saying. No one is trying to start world war 3 here except you by dragging me into this in the first place a few posts ago. And thanks again for that.

 

[Kieran]

His backhand wasn't great on his return and he wasn't hitting it as well as this on clay. It's post-W that he's found this HC sharpness - and not too soon.

But not before it, either.

I think he re-tooled bigtime after Wimbledon, his serve is fairly smashing too. None of these were in evidence in IW or the clay season.

I just hope he absconds to a beach now for a few days, rests the knees, the serve and the backhand and gets ready to climb an even steeper mountain in NY next week...

 

[huntingyou]

Rafa disposition and commitment to hit forehands on the rise and inside the court during the last two weeks it's a first. I mean, he is just thumping balls or like some people say "ball bashing"

There are only two tournaments where Rafa came close to hit as good of a "hardcourt" forehand as he is doing now. That was 2008 Olympics and 2010 UO. He must be feeling really good to go for it as often as he is doing it now. That's what won him the match against Novak which was crucial for him.

Interestingly, Rafa said Montreal was a faster court than cincy..........funny how people's myth become truth after repeating it for a million times. My guess is, the weather was mild this year and that made a difference. I always thought Montreal was pretty quick and this confirms it. For sure it has to be the lower bounce what gives Rafa problems (see WTF)

http://www.rtve.es/m/alacarta/videos/tenis/nadal-voy-intentar-ir-numero-uno/1997567/?media=tve

It's still funny how people bring up draws when Rafa wins titles like this. I mean, in 2010 he beat Novak but it didn't count because it didn't happen a year later, but a year later an inferior rafa with a WTA serve still made the final, beat Murray in the SF with conviction and took a set of ultra Novak. The fact is, in 2010 there was NO player on tour that would have beaten Rafa at the UO......

Basically, it's lose-lose scenario. Beat Novak and it was because he was at C level with mental issues, beat Federer on his favorite court and well he is a granpa isn't he? Maybe he should beat the guy he owns 13-5 too......nah who am I kidding; excuses will be made because that the life of a Rafa hater

 

[JesuslookslikeBorg]

[attachment=15]that chip/slice dropshot rafa/wafa threw in somewhere near the end was interesting.

its the JJ effect kicking in..if jj can alternate 141mph serves with feathery dropshots so can everyone else..:idea:

oh yeah..vamos wafa..thats a record equalling 5 masters titles in a season (Laver 1970, Connors 1976, Djokovic 2011, and Nadal this season..:clap

the only downside if you like all the top p[layers like me is murray going down to no3 rank tomorrow, that's what happens when you win 2 majors but do bugger all on clay I suppose..

 

[calitennis127]

No question Nadal is a great player but I wish they would qiut referring to his time off to heal his knee asbeing a medical time out. We hear time and time again how remarkable it is that he is playing such awesome tennis (which he is) after his time off when Del Potro did not come back so quickly and ready. Nadal DID NOT have surgery. There is a big difference. I still think much of the time was to heal his ego from losing so early at Wimbledon, to work on his game and figure out how to get back big points after the lay off.

Interesting theory. Not sure that I completely buy it but I definitely think there is truth to what you are saying.

Come off it, Cali, this is one of Front's theories - one among many (silent ban, small injury, sulk, etc) - and it's beneath you. I know you don't like Rafa, but this is beneath you, bro. Keep punching, but no silly low blows...

I don't see it as a low blow.

First of all, the part I most strongly agreed with was that Nadal did not have surgery - and that is a big difference from Del Potro, as well as all of the hip repairs to significant players, wouldn't you say?

Second, in the event that Nadal did take some time off to re-evaluate his approach to Djokovic and to re-invigorate, what's wrong with that? It has obviously worked marvelously this year, when he has had the best hard-court results of his career.