Basel 2014 ATP 500

Front242

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Well he's unsure whether to even challenge a match point that was out for one thing in Cincy last year! That was one of his worst muppet moments as the ball was clearly out even to the naked eye without a replay. :s
 

Murat Baslamisli

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Broken_Shoelace said:
The above is to highlight a point: There are way too many errors, way too many different struggles (on the return, poor approach shots, etc...), too many different elements that don't click to simply say it's mostly mental. The mental game plays a part when Roger blows leads to Nadal, when, no matter the scoreline, you always get the feeling there's only going to be one winner, when Roger plays bad tie-breaks, when he makes terrible errors on break points, etc... But key points are, in the grand scheme of things, very few (relatively), albeit very decisive. The mental game does not explain why other elements in the match-up that occur at "neutral" moments in the match. There's clearly much in Rafa's game that forces Federer to overthink at times, and I think that's actually the most under-discussed aspect of Fedal matches: They've played 33 times, and yet Federer is STILL unsure what's the best way to approach their matches, tactically.


Not agreeing with that part. The problem Roger has against Rafa (beyond the mental aspect of the game) is that Rafa's tactic against him is WAY easier to implement than his tactic against Rafa. All Rafa has to do is hit a topspin forehand cross court shot deep, which he can do with his eyes closed. And that tactic never ever changes. Even Tony said once something like " We could play Roger straight up but why mess with it" . So BEFORE Roger can implement what HE wants to, he has to deal with a shot that is the easiest for his opponent but the most difficult for him to deal with. It is a nightmare match up.
 

brokenshoelace

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Front242 said:
Well he's unsure whether to even challenge a match point that was out for one thing in Cincy last year! That was one of his worst muppet moments as the ball was clearly out even to the naked eye without a replay. :s

While I think this was more a case of Federer's weird relationship with the challenge system, and probably, not wanting to challenge on match point in order not to come off wrong, a match-point obviously falls under the mental category, and it's an instance in which Nadal being in his head matters. That still doesn't explain 70% of the points played during a match that aren't decisive points.
 

brokenshoelace

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1972Murat said:
Broken_Shoelace said:
The above is to highlight a point: There are way too many errors, way too many different struggles (on the return, poor approach shots, etc...), too many different elements that don't click to simply say it's mostly mental. The mental game plays a part when Roger blows leads to Nadal, when, no matter the scoreline, you always get the feeling there's only going to be one winner, when Roger plays bad tie-breaks, when he makes terrible errors on break points, etc... But key points are, in the grand scheme of things, very few (relatively), albeit very decisive. The mental game does not explain why other elements in the match-up that occur at "neutral" moments in the match. There's clearly much in Rafa's game that forces Federer to overthink at times, and I think that's actually the most under-discussed aspect of Fedal matches: They've played 33 times, and yet Federer is STILL unsure what's the best way to approach their matches, tactically.


Not agreeing with that part. The problem Roger has against Rafa (beyond the mental aspect of the game) is that Rafa's tactic against him is WAY easier to implement than his tactic against Rafa. All Rafa has to do is hit a topspin forehand cross court shot deep, which he can do with his eyes closed. And that tactic never ever changes. Even Tony said once something like " We could play Roger straight up but why mess with it" . So BEFORE Roger can implement what HE wants to, he has to deal with a shot that is the easiest for his opponent but the most difficult for him to deal with. It is a nightmare match up.

But that's not really disagreeing. I'm not saying Federer is just randomly unsure of how to play against Nadal. He's obviously unsure as to how to play him for a reason, and that Nadal's game bothers him.

I still don't think Federer has figured out quite what's the best way to deal with Nadal's game in general, and not just his spin, despite playing him a million times. I'm talking about a realistic strategy, of course.
 

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Broken_Shoelace said:
1972Murat said:
Broken_Shoelace said:
The above is to highlight a point: There are way too many errors, way too many different struggles (on the return, poor approach shots, etc...), too many different elements that don't click to simply say it's mostly mental. The mental game plays a part when Roger blows leads to Nadal, when, no matter the scoreline, you always get the feeling there's only going to be one winner, when Roger plays bad tie-breaks, when he makes terrible errors on break points, etc... But key points are, in the grand scheme of things, very few (relatively), albeit very decisive. The mental game does not explain why other elements in the match-up that occur at "neutral" moments in the match. There's clearly much in Rafa's game that forces Federer to overthink at times, and I think that's actually the most under-discussed aspect of Fedal matches: They've played 33 times, and yet Federer is STILL unsure what's the best way to approach their matches, tactically.


Not agreeing with that part. The problem Roger has against Rafa (beyond the mental aspect of the game) is that Rafa's tactic against him is WAY easier to implement than his tactic against Rafa. All Rafa has to do is hit a topspin forehand cross court shot deep, which he can do with his eyes closed. And that tactic never ever changes. Even Tony said once something like " We could play Roger straight up but why mess with it" . So BEFORE Roger can implement what HE wants to, he has to deal with a shot that is the easiest for his opponent but the most difficult for him to deal with. It is a nightmare match up.

But that's not really disagreeing. I'm not saying Federer is just randomly unsure of how to play against Nadal. He's obviously unsure as to how to play him for a reason, and that Nadal's game bothers him.

I still don't think Federer has figured out quite what's the best way to deal with Nadal's game in general, and not just his spin, despite playing him a million times. I'm talking about a realistic strategy, of course.

I know what you are saying but a high top spin forehand deep to a single handers backhand gives you only so many options and I am sure he has tried all of them...they even worked sometimes. But most of the time, they don't. realistically, what can he do?

A) Run around the backhand, unleash a forehand. You make it , great you miss, the whole forehand side of the court is open.

B) Step back, take a big cut. Nah, that means giving up the baseline.

C) Hit a slice backhand as good as you can. Some will even work but rafa eats slices for lunch

D) Come over the ball hit flat...easier said that done but he has managed sometimes.

No matter how you cut it, it is just a horrible match up. :nono
 

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Broken_Shoelace said:
I still don't think Federer has figured out quite what's the best way to deal with Nadal's game in general, and not just his spin, despite playing him a million times. I'm talking about a realistic strategy, of course.

I always felt that Novak approached the rivalry in the best way. Rafa used to own him, but Novak didn't radically change his strategy. Instead of doing what the entire tour does against Rafa (force the issue by going for more than they're comfortable) he played within himself, took his early losses and just got better. Eventually that strategy turned into a consistent way of getting wins against him.

I think what happened with Fedal is that during the early part of their rivalry, when Roger wanted the FO, he started experimenting with ways of beating Nadal. But he never stuck with any one particular strat. So you see that a lot of the wins Rafa has against him, its matches where Federer is trying S/V or trying to grind, but doing it in a way that he's clearly not comfortable with.

A lot of talk about the lefty fh to the 1handed bh, but what isn't usually mentioned is that it isn't that bad anymore. It used to be, in the early stages of their rivalry, but I often feel that Federer is so freaked out about the dynamic that he forces things way too early. He then gives away a lot of points without making Rafa work for it. And as we all know, if you make Rafa work for things, eventually he does become human and you see cracks. Particularly when Federer was still in his prime and could compete athletically/stamina wise, I think he gave away a few matches that he would have won had he been a bit more patient and within himself.

Incidentally, this often happens with bad matchups. Roddick gave away a bunch of matches to Federer, b/c he was trying to be something that he is not. It's part of the self fulfilling mental game that goes through players heads, and that coaches really can't change.
 

Front242

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On fast surfaces like Cincy Federer doesn't needed to do anything special in terms of strategy because Nadal's topspin isn't bouncing shoulder height to Roger's one handed BH. Anyone who watched their Cincy 2013 match could easily see the only thing Roger needed to do to win that match was just be consistent and nothing more. He had a good shot at winning that match if not for the poor service game he played to lose serve at the end of set 2. On surfaces like clay obviously Nadal's topspin FH to one handed BH is where the match up becomes hardest for Federer but I don't think there's anything that Roger's too unable to handle from Wimbledon until the end of the year in terms of surface. It's all about keeping the play clean which is hard obviously but no real improvisation is needed except on surfaces with high bounce.
 

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2014 Basel 1/2 Roger Federer vs Ivo Karlovic Highlights [HD]

http://www.tennishdhighlights.com/basel/
 

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Marty McFly trying to make a match of it after Fed dusted him in the opener 6-2
 

JesuslookslikeBorg

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marty mcfly needs to shift his arse to a different dimension if he wants to beat the fedster.
 

GameSetAndMath

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Fed takes his break in the second set. It is 3-2 Fed now. Sounds like it is over to me.
 

JesuslookslikeBorg

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6-2, 4-2. :)

I don't want to say get that trophy ready right now..but......:woohoos
 

Front242

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A Swiss master class. That's another tournament he's won 6 times now. He was returning really well today and seeing the ball like a football.
 

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Net play was great too and the winning point featured a sweet volley.
 

Murat Baslamisli

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Well done Roger. Solid play today. Goffin was maybe a bit gassed and overplayed at this point but he tried.

There was one point in the first set where Roger hit a great DTL backhand which Goffin got to but then Roger hit another great cross court backhand to win the point. That point was big for me. He is trusting his shots much more.

Goffin seems like a very likeable guy. He is going to rise to #22 the TV guys say. Well deserved.

%93 second serve points won is a great stat for Roger.

On to Paris.

Quick note: Gilbert is right. Always choose to receive if you win the toss. Especially against an opponent who is young and probably very nervous to begin with.
 

JesuslookslikeBorg

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nice one. :cool:

6-2, 6-2. demolition job in 51 minutes. 5th title of 2014. 82nd title of career.

career wins 989.
 

Front242

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1972Murat said:
Well done Roger. Solid play today. Goffin was maybe a bit gassed and overplayed at this point but he tried.

There was one point in the first set where Roger hit a great DTL backhand which Goffin got to but then Roger hit another great cross court backhand to win the point. That point was big for me. He is trusting his shots much more.

Goffin seems like a very likeable guy. He is going to rise to #22 the TV guys say. Well deserved.

%93 second serve points won is a great stat for Roger.

On to Paris.

Yeah that DTL BH and cross court BH combo was sweet! Impressed how cleanly he's hitting lately.
 

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Couldn't see it today but must have been a great performance, Roger is rolling going into Paris