Basel 2014 ATP 500

[brokenshoelace]

Had this been 2006 Roger then we'd be talking. But time to accept reality.

That's the point. This is not 2006 Federer, but no 2010 Nadal either. And the fact is that Federer seems to be dealing better with time than Nadal. "Reality" says that Nadal is not playing that well for a while, injury or no injury. I am the last person to get in those "he is done" (about any player) bandwagons, but, margins are small. Those top guys are far from "done", but they can be in different relative levels according to their own peaks, and this can surely alter the dynamics of their match ups.

Nadal is a better player than Federer at this point in their careers. Unless you're strictly judging based on the last few weeks. So yeah, this isn't 2010 Nadal, but 2013 Nadal was enough to beat Fed every time they played without breaking much of a sweat with the exception of that Cincinnati match.

Federer dealing better with time than Nadal? That's an unfair comparison...to Federer. He's dealing with having to be 33, not 28. The reason I would say this is unfair is because my response to that statement would be: "Federer is not the one winning majors consistently, Rafa is." But, that WOULD be unfair given Fed is 5 years older. Still, people get too caught up in the moment. You guys realize that in a year filled with injuries, Nadal made the finals of two out of the three majors he participated in, and won one of them.

So yeah, I really don't mean to rain on anyone's parade but the current feeling of optimism is eerily familiar, and I've been seeing it pretty much every year at this point of the season with the exception of last year. That's not a bad thing, mind you, as it shows that Fed is still delivering the goods despite his age, but no, he's not going to start beating Nadal even semi consistently, on any surface. That ship has sailed.

 

[Fiero425]

If Rafa can't bully Roger with the forehand by hitting it high then there isn't much of a matchup issue and therefore it becomes a match Roger should win flat out with having way more firepower all around. That's why losses like Cincy, indoors and yes wimbledon are the inexcusable head scratching kind.

And that's exactly the kind of simplistic analysis that I don't agree with. Yeah, obviously, if he's not hitting balls at shoulder height, he's better off. But that still doesn't negate other aspects of the match up, such as Nadal forcing him to overhit, worrying about getting stuck in backhand-to-forehand exchanges (even on a surface like Cinci, that can be a problem, and it was evident last year once Nadal started changing directions and firing his forehand up the line), not being able to do anything on Nadal's serve, being unsure how to return his second serve, etc...

Obviously, the faster surfaces neutralize some aspects of the match-up and it becomes easier for Roger to play "his game," but this isn't 2006. He still gets moved around the court and he can't grind as much, and he's still prone to just making errors. You call the errors unjustifiable, like all other Fed fans, but maybe after 33 meetings in which this happened at least 23 times, there's something more to it.

Ok Broken_Record; errrr Broken_Shoelace! :angel: :dodgy: The record, dynamics, and history making of this rivalry will go on longer than their tenure at the top! I didn't think we'd see anyone better than Sampras, but it happened and we're witnessing a couple sea-changes after Emerson held record for decades! Even with Laver being denied entrance to MAJORS for 5+ prime years, after what we've seen Roger and Rafa do with more competition and different surfaces, those memories will fade of pre-Open tennis! Rafa still has a chance to overtake Roger and cement his legacy even with limited dominance of his era!

 

[JesuslookslikeBorg]

Federer's been in form, been rewarded with 2 masters, a Wimbledon final, halle, Dubai, basel titles and has a daviscup final and a possible world no1 rank to look forward to.

..those clowns who claimed fedster was old and too injured and too out of focus with his kids are the ones who are eating the smelly cake of defeat. :ras::wave

 

[mrzz]

^
I have to disagree. First, a disclaimer: My point is much less radical than it might sound. My point is simply that RF has a (fair) shot in any future match with RN FROM NOW ON, factoring in physical condition and surface. It seems (but I may be wrong) that you're guarantiing 5x0 in the next five matches. I'm saying 3x2 or 2x3.

The matches you mentioned were in 2013 and early in 2014. 2013 was the worst year in RF's carreer for more than a decade. In contrast, Nadal was playing pretty well.

It is true that there were 2 finals out of 3, but those were carefully choosen words. Those 2 finals were the first 2, the second one was on clay. From RG onwards, injuries or not, his level wasn't enough for GS finals. His own level on clay was far bellow his usual.

My assertion about time was more concerned about the future than about the past. Take into account mainly your own analysis about Nadal this year's movement and serve, for example. You cannot think that a poor serving Nadal against a sharp Federer (yes, those are two if's) would simply be a walk in the park.

I see your point about the "current wave of optimism" and I agree with it. I simply do not agree with opposite, deterministic view. Much of this view is based on facts frozen in the past, and the timming of their last matches. What would be the outcome if Nadal had found a way to be in today's final? And yet, this guys are still changing and adapting their games, to their ages, their body, and the evolving field.

2014 has shown that anything (ok, a lot of things) can happen. This includes Federer beating Nadal.

 

[brokenshoelace]

If Rafa can't bully Roger with the forehand by hitting it high then there isn't much of a matchup issue and therefore it becomes a match Roger should win flat out with having way more firepower all around. That's why losses like Cincy, indoors and yes wimbledon are the inexcusable head scratching kind.

And that's exactly the kind of simplistic analysis that I don't agree with. Yeah, obviously, if he's not hitting balls at shoulder height, he's better off. But that still doesn't negate other aspects of the match up, such as Nadal forcing him to overhit, worrying about getting stuck in backhand-to-forehand exchanges (even on a surface like Cinci, that can be a problem, and it was evident last year once Nadal started changing directions and firing his forehand up the line), not being able to do anything on Nadal's serve, being unsure how to return his second serve, etc...

Obviously, the faster surfaces neutralize some aspects of the match-up and it becomes easier for Roger to play "his game," but this isn't 2006. He still gets moved around the court and he can't grind as much, and he's still prone to just making errors. You call the errors unjustifiable, like all other Fed fans, but maybe after 33 meetings in which this happened at least 23 times, there's something more to it.

Ok Broken_Record; errrr Broken_Shoelace! :angel: :dodgy: The record, dynamics, and history making of this rivalry will go on longer than their tenure at the top! I didn't think we'd see anyone better than Sampras, but it happened and we're witnessing a couple sea-changes after Emerson held record for decades! Even with Laver being denied entrance to MAJORS for 5+ prime years, after what we've seen Roger and Rafa do with more competition and different surfaces, those memories will fade of pre-Open tennis! Rafa still has a chance to overtake Roger and cement his legacy even with limited dominance of his era!

This has nothing to do with anything.

 

[brokenshoelace]

^
I have to disagree. First, a disclaimer: My point is much less radical than it might sound. My point is simply that RF has a (fair) shot in any future match with RN FROM NOW ON, factoring in physical condition and surface. It seems (but I may be wrong) that you're guarantiing 5x0 in the next five matches. I'm saying 3x2 or 2x3.

The matches you mentioned were in 2013 and early in 2014. 2013 was the worst year in RF's carreer for more than a decade. In contrast, Nadal was playing pretty well.

It is true that there were 2 finals out of 3, but those were carefully choosen words. Those 2 finals were the first 2, the second one was on clay. From RG onwards, injuries or not, his level wasn't enough for GS finals. His own level on clay was far bellow his usual.

My assertion about time was more concerned about the future than about the past. Take into account mainly your own analysis about Nadal this year's movement and serve, for example. You cannot think that a poor serving Nadal against a sharp Federer (yes, those are two if's) would simply be a walk in the park.

I see your point about the "current wave of optimism" and I agree with it. I simply do not agree with opposite, deterministic view. Much of this view is based on facts frozen in the past, and the timming of their last matches. What would be the outcome if Nadal had found a way to be in today's final? And yet, this guys are still changing and adapting their games, to their ages, their body, and the evolving field.

2014 has shown that anything (ok, a lot of things) can happen. This includes Federer beating Nadal.

My analysis assumes that Nadal will be fine next year, as I believe he will be. We've seen this before. Nadal gets injured, misses some time, people wonder if he'll be the same...and he snatches up majors. Now, granted, as he gets older and gains more mileage on his body, this will be more difficult, but he's still 28. He'll be fine.

2014 did show that a lot of things can happen, but not Federer beating Nadal since it didn't happen the one time they played

Ok, no but seriously, of course Fed can beat Nadal still. If they play, say, 7 times by the time their careers are over (and they may well play more than that), surely Federer will win a few. But I don't see him beating Rafa at a major for example, other than maybe Wimbledon. Yes, I wouldn't give Federer much of a chance at the US Open against Nadal at this point.

 

[crystalfire]

looks like this is another fedal thread. glad fed won today. cant wait to see what he does in paris

 

[DarthFed]

If Rafa can't bully Roger with the forehand by hitting it high then there isn't much of a matchup issue and therefore it becomes a match Roger should win flat out with having way more firepower all around. That's why losses like Cincy, indoors and yes wimbledon are the inexcusable head scratching kind.

And that's exactly the kind of simplistic analysis that I don't agree with. Yeah, obviously, if he's not hitting balls at shoulder height, he's better off. But that still doesn't negate other aspects of the match up, such as Nadal forcing him to overhit, worrying about getting stuck in backhand-to-forehand exchanges (even on a surface like Cinci, that can be a problem, and it was evident last year once Nadal started changing directions and firing his forehand up the line), not being able to do anything on Nadal's serve, being unsure how to return his second serve, etc...

Obviously, the faster surfaces neutralize some aspects of the match-up and it becomes easier for Roger to play "his game," but this isn't 2006. He still gets moved around the court and he can't grind as much, and he's still prone to just making errors. You call the errors unjustifiable, like all other Fed fans, but maybe after 33 meetings in which this happened at least 23 times, there's something more to it.

Yeah but the head to head on the quick/low bouncing outdoor courts and indoor courts is 6-3 in his favor and that's with Roger dropping 2 easily last year when he couldn't beat a fly. On those courts the matchup is just different and Roger can and still should beat him there consistently.

Edit: actually 6-4. Forgot Dubai before

 

[GameSetAndMath]

looks like this is another fedal thread. glad fed won today. cant wait to see what he does in paris

I don't know. May be the admins should create some sort of a sticky thread for fedal wars
so that other threads are not hijacked. But, I don't know whether it will work even if they
do. :idea:

 

[kskate2]

looks like this is another fedal thread. glad fed won today. cant wait to see what he does in paris

I don't know. May be the admins should create some sort of a sticky thread for fedal wars
so that other threads are not hijacked. But, I don't know whether it will work even if they
do. :idea:

It won't. People ignore the titles of threads, they ignore when fellow posters try to bring the thread back on topic and they ignore the mods or admins attempt to restore order to a thread.

 

[mrzz]

^Ok, guilty. As a punishment, I'll search in youtube some Ferrer x Simon complete matches.

 

[Front242]

^Ok, guilty. As a punishment, I'll search in youtube some Ferrer x Simon complete matches.

A fate worse than death :clap Actually watch this pos instead. It's like a practice session for teenage girls.

[video=youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zk_rhsDxUFs&feature=player_detailpage[/video]

 

[Fiero425]

^Ok, guilty. As a punishment, I'll search in youtube some Ferrer x Simon complete matches.

A fate worse than death :clap Actually watch this pos instead. It's like a practice session for teenage girls.

[video=youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zk_rhsDxUFs&feature=player_detailpage[/video]

I know better than to even look! It's absolutely criminal watching these guys who can do so much more, but revert to this kind of defensive game so inexplicably; same with Murray today struggling for well over 3 hours in Valencia vs Robredo! :nono :cover :cry

 

[Front242]

Well Robredo really should've won both their last encounters and is actually playing very aggressive lately but he's equally a great defender. A ridiculous amount of match points blown in 2 successive matches.

 

[GameSetAndMath]

This hasn't been updated with today's win and title but I guess it's 62-10 for the year for Roger.

http://www.atpworldtour.com/Tennis/Players/Top-Players/Roger-Federer.aspx?t=rb

Those numbers haven't been updated for the whole tournament, so he's actually 66-10 for the year now.

One interesting tidbit. So far, in this year even though Roger was leading in number of
matches won and number of matches played, he was not leading in winning percentage.
Novak was ahead of Roger so far. But, with today's win Roger edged Novak on
that too. Roger has 66-10 record for a 86.8% whereas Novak has a 52-8 record for a 86.7%.

 

[Fiero425]

Well Robredo really should've won both their last encounters and is actually playing very aggressive lately but he's equally a great defender. A ridiculous amount of match points blown in 2 successive matches.

It goes back to what I think of the 2nd tier that can't seem to "finish!" Why continue to play a defensive game when you get ahead? You just give your opponent time to regroup and then start attacking back! Robredo gave this away more than Murray winning it! This is so "Maria Sharapova;" getting into unnecessary battles "playing back deep" and making bad UFE's! I won't say totally gutless since there have been several huge upsets the last couple weeks! "The Big 3/4" are having to work for it!

 

[Front242]

^ Well Robredo was ranked as high as number 5 and had dropped due to injuries but will be back to number 16 next week. Had he won both the finals he lost he'd be obviously ranked even higher but is 2nd tier mostly due to age. He's not normally one to squander match points like that. Was pretty shocked the exact same thing happened today to be honest and before both their last encounters began I thought he'd win both in 2 based on respective form of each guy and he nearly did. Hopefully his confidence won't take a nose dive now.

 

[JesuslookslikeBorg]

looks like this is another fedal thread. glad fed won today. cant wait to see what he does in paris

I don't know. May be the admins should create some sort of a sticky thread for fedal wars
so that other threads are not hijacked. But, I don't know whether it will work even if they
do. :idea:

the fedal bore war gimps have been running amok without a care to anyone else.

if it continues there is hardly any point poasting in a tourney thread like this one..it has been ruined.

 

[mrzz]

Fantastic final today. Best 50 minutes I had all year.

By the way, I watched the whole video. Oh boy... I stand punished.

 

[Murat Baslamisli]

looks like this is another fedal thread. glad fed won today. cant wait to see what he does in paris

I don't know. May be the admins should create some sort of a sticky thread for fedal wars
so that other threads are not hijacked. But, I don't know whether it will work even if they
do. :idea:

It won't. People ignore the titles of threads, they ignore when fellow posters try to bring the thread back on topic and they ignore the mods or admins attempt to restore order to a thread.

Certainties in life: Death, taxes....threads that turn into Fedals.