Barcelona Open 2019, Spain, ATP 500

[Federberg]

Well, that would be you. There are other folks around here and over the years who spend a lot of time discounting clay and bemoaning how boring the season is, because of Rafa.

I get that. I'll admit that I used to enjoy the clay swing a bit more when it was more competitive. Watching Rafa grinding everyone to dust is a bit demoralising for me. It became more interesting when Novak got really good on clay and then Stan arrived. There was a period where the red dirt just meant Federer being destroyed by Rafa.... I didn't like that so much

 

[Fiero425]

I get that. I'll admit that I used to enjoy the clay swing a bit more when it was more competitive. Watching Rafa grinding everyone to dust is a bit demoralising for me. It became more interesting when Novak got really good on clay and then Stan arrived. There was a period where the red dirt just meant Federer being destroyed by Rafa.... I didn't like that so much

I didn't even watch those FO contests with Fedal; even the so called competitive ones! I don't mind the unexpected blow-out like Nole over Rafa in Australia, but I wouldn't even bother to wake up to see them in those FO finals over 10 years ago! It just wasn't worth it and knew it ahead of time! Rafa would "game" his way to a win no matter what it took! :whistle: :cuckoo:

 

[El Dude]

Well, that would be you. There are other folks around here and over the years who spend a lot of time discounting clay and bemoaning how boring the season is, because of Rafa.

Yes, I agree that there are folks here that feel that way - but I don't think it is some huge majority and it certainly isn't the case with me.

If anything, it is a compliment to Rafa: he so dominates the surface that it takes some of the mystery out of each tournament. That seems to be changing, which makes it more interesting from a "tennis fan perspective."

 

[Moxie]

Yes, I agree that there are folks here that feel that way - but I don't think it is some huge majority and it certainly isn't the case with me.

If anything, it is a compliment to Rafa: he so dominates the surface that it takes some of the mystery out of each tournament. That seems to be changing, which makes it more interesting from a "tennis fan perspective."

If it's a compliment, it's often a back-handed one, or comes with an insult. (See Fiero's above about "gaming" his way to a win. Now, I know that Fiero can be biased and idiotic, but he's not the only one that spends effort at delegitimizing Rafa's wins.) Believe me, even I have admitted in recent years that only a Nadal fan can be rooting for him to win a 12th (11th/10th) RG and I get why. But Nadal fans are tennis fans, too, so you can't claim to speak for all "tennis fans" as far as perspective. In any case, my point to you was that Thiem winning Barcelona is not what has made this clay season interesting, "from a tennis fan perspective." Thiem is on the short-list, anyway. It got interesting before. (See Mrzz's list of players new to the list of making things complicated on his Early RG predictions thread.) I say this with all affection and respect.

 

[Moxie]

I get that. I'll admit that I used to enjoy the clay swing a bit more when it was more competitive. Watching Rafa grinding everyone to dust is a bit demoralising for me. It became more interesting when Novak got really good on clay and then Stan arrived. There was a period where the red dirt just meant Federer being destroyed by Rafa.... I didn't like that so much

I can understand this, but I do take umbrage with the above bolded. Please see Mrzz's post #203 on p.11 of this thread: there is a distinction between "grinding" and out-playing. I don't think you meant that exactly as it sounded...more of a rhetorical and rather (understandably) resentful flourish. But you should understand that it grates on the last nerve of those of us who love the clay, that those of you who love the fast play think that great clay play is just "grinding."

 

[El Dude]

OK, fair enough. My attention to tennis tends to fade in the times between big tournaments...also, I'm a big baseball fan so April sees my focus more on that as it is the beginning of the year, and I only have so much mental space I can dedicate to sports fandom (and already dedicate way too much!). My point being, I wasn't paying all that much attention to South America or Houston/Marrakech, so maybe missed some developments, but am paying more attention now, and my sense of things is that it is a more interesting clay season (that is, more wide open) than in the past couple years - and this is not only because of players rising but Rafa seeming more vulnerable, and thus outcomes being less certain.

I don't mean to speak for all tennis fans. I am merely pointing out that each of us has a "player fan perspective" and a "tennis fan perspective," and the two don't always align. For example, my player fan perspective wants to see Roger blow others out of the water, but the tennis fan in me enjoys five-set nail-biters. You get what I mean, hopefully.

There is another aspect of this. I do think that all of us, to varying degrees, have a tendency to subconsciously find ways to spin things to make "our guy" look better. I think what bugs you--and rightfully so--is when people do that via going on the offensive about other players, namely Rafa. But it is an endless war with no real solution except opting out and focusing on other aspects of tennis. I find it tedious and try to minimize that game (although occasionally indulge), but to each their own!

 

[Moxie]

^ I do think you hear what I'm saying, which I appreciate. When people take cheap shots at Rafa, I am on a one-woman mission to combat them. And I know I can be tedious about semantics, even with fair posters like you and Federberg. But it wouldn't be the internet if we didn't joust over the small points. We all love good tennis, or we wouldn't be here. (With trollish exceptions.) However, fan bias is fan bias, whether sub-conscious or not. I've never pretended that I'm not a partisan.

 

[mrzz]

@Moxie, thanks for quoting my posts as a decent reference.

About the discussion you are having with @Federberg, there is something I would like to post for a while (even if exactly you two probably are quite aware of my point).

One Nadal trait that drives other player's fans crazy is that he knows perfectly well when to attack and when to play "neutral" (that is, grind, if you will). All players do that to some extent, some do it well, some not. It is a fundamental part of the game of tennis. There are two moments when it is wise to "grind", when you don't feel good about your own shots, and when your opponent is in self-destruct mode. Nadal easily goes from one extreme to the other with an irritating sense of opportunity. Hardly a match passes by that at some point he does not earn an important point "grinding". However, in the same match maybe he would win three times more important points with fearless attack, but it doesn't matter, because the selection bias will make the other players fans remember just those "grinding" moments. I can go as far as saying that this even influenced Federberg's choice of words when he wrote "Watching Rafa grinding everyone to dust". It is just part of the picture, but one that sticks (for the ones on the receiving end).

Obviously all players are well aware of that and other guys do it well too. Even Federer (who used to be as stubborn as a mule) became a good practitioner of this art -- something that DarthFed coined as "vanilla Fed", which is frustrating to watch (when you want to see a full display of TMF), but pays dividends on the long run.

 

[Moxie]

^ Really illuminating post. Thank you, @mrzz.

 

[Fiero425]

If it's a compliment, it's often a back-handed one, or comes with an insult. (See Fiero's above about "gaming" his way to a win. Now, I know that Fiero can be biased and idiotic, but he's not the only one that spends effort at delegitimizing Rafa's wins.) Believe me, even I have admitted in recent years that only a Nadal fan can be rooting for him to win a 12th (11th/10th) RG and I get why. But Nadal fans are tennis fans, too, so you can't claim to speak for all "tennis fans" as far as perspective. In any case, my point to you was that Thiem winning Barcelona is not what has made this clay season interesting, "from a tennis fan perspective." Thiem is on the short-list, anyway. It got interesting before. (See Mrzz's list of players new to the list of making things complicated on his Early RG predictions thread.) I say this with all affection and respect.

B!tch, b!tch, b!tch; that's all you ever are! :whistle: :cuckoo:

 

[El Dude]

@Moxie, thanks for quoting my posts as a decent reference.

About the discussion you are having with @Federberg, there is something I would like to post for a while (even if exactly you two probably are quite aware of my point).

One Nadal trait that drives other player's fans crazy is that he knows perfectly well when to attack and when to play "neutral" (that is, grind, if you will). All players do that to some extent, some do it well, some not. It is a fundamental part of the game of tennis. There are two moments when it is wise to "grind", when you don't feel good about your own shots, and when your opponent is in self-destruct mode. Nadal easily goes from one extreme to the other with an irritating sense of opportunity. Hardly a match passes by that at some point he does not earn an important point "grinding". However, in the same match maybe he would win three times more important points with fearless attack, but it doesn't matter, because the selection bias will make the other players fans remember just those "grinding" moments. I can go as far as saying that this even influenced Federberg's choice of words when he wrote "Watching Rafa grinding everyone to dust". It is just part of the picture, but one that sticks (for the ones on the receiving end).

Obviously all players are well aware of that and other guys do it well too. Even Federer (who used to be as stubborn as a mule) became a good practitioner of this art -- something that DarthFed coined as "vanilla Fed", which is frustrating to watch (when you want to see a full display of TMF), but pays dividends on the long run.

Well put. And let's be blunt: nothing wrong with winning by forcing the other player to make mistakes. That is a skill.

Of course that is not all that Rafa is or does. How many times have we seen him win long rallies with a screaming down-the-line forehand or a cross-court two-handed backhand? And of course what makes him truly great is his mental game - which is, in my opinion, unequalled in at least recent history.

 

[Moxie]

B!tch, b!tch, b!tch; that's all you ever are! :whistle: :cuckoo:

LOL, well, I guess it takes one to know one. Except that I'm not so thin-skinned, nor nearly as inclined to abuse emoticons. Cheers!

 

[Federberg]

I can understand this, but I do take umbrage with the above bolded. Please see Mrzz's post #203 on p.11 of this thread: there is a distinction between "grinding" and out-playing. I don't think you meant that exactly as it sounded...more of a rhetorical and rather (understandably) resentful flourish. But you should understand that it grates on the last nerve of those of us who love the clay, that those of you who love the fast play think that great clay play is just "grinding."

Lol! You're absolutely right. I freely admit my stylistic resentment. If this type of play is given space to breathe just on clay and wasn't nurtured on other surfaces I would be even more tolerant and probably embrace it. That's why the last couple of decades of slowing has been such a disappointment. I'll admit it, I miss the heck out of carpet I respect what Rafa does and what he's achieved. I just don't.... love it

 

[Horsa]

^ I do think you hear what I'm saying, which I appreciate. When people take cheap shots at Rafa, I am on a one-woman mission to combat them. And I know I can be tedious about semantics, even with fair posters like you and Federberg. But it wouldn't be the internet if we didn't joust over the small points. We all love good tennis, or we wouldn't be here. (With trollish exceptions.) However, fan bias is fan bias, whether sub-conscious or not. I've never pretended that I'm not a partisan.

Excuse me, please! I love good tennis but don't get a chance to watch much now although I did in the past so I can only really bring up good memories & wish the British guys luck rather than talk properly about it. Therefore, people could get the impression by what you said here that I'm a troll when I'm not. I just want to fit in, make friends & have a nice, interesting conversation & a laugh & joke like everyone else. Sometimes others have accused me of having an agenda. If I have it's the sentence above starting "I just want".

 

[Fiero425]

Lol! You're absolutely right. I freely admit my stylistic resentment. If this type of play is given space to breathe just on clay and wasn't nurtured on other surfaces I would be even more tolerant and probably embrace it. That's why the last couple of decades of slowing has been such a disappointment. I'll admit it, I miss the heck out of carpet I respect what Rafa does and what he's achieved. I just don't.... love it

Thank you! Too bad some out here can't respect other people's opinion and thoughts!

 

[mrzz]

Excuse me, please! I love good tennis but don't get a chance to watch much now although I did in the past so I can only really bring up good memories & wish the British guys luck rather than talk properly about it. Therefore, people could get the impression by what you said here that I'm a troll when I'm not. I just want to fit in, make friends & have a nice, interesting conversation & a laugh & joke like everyone else. Sometimes others have accused me of having an agenda. If I have it's the sentence above starting "I just want".

From all the impossibilities in the world, one of the greatest is you having trollish behavior, and Moxie knows that quite well. From the Urban Dictionary:

Trolling – (verb), as it relates to internet, is the deliberate act, (by a Troll – noun or adjective), of making random unsolicited and/or controversial comments on various internet forums with the intent to provoke an emotional knee jerk reaction from unsuspecting readers to engage in a fight or argument

The bolded parts are basically the opposite of your behavior. What Moxie is calling trolling is specific related to tennis (in this discussion at least), yet more specifically regarding Nadal. I could bet my head that the last person she had in mind when she wrote her post was you.

 

[Horsa]

From all the impossibilities in the world, one of the greatest is you having trollish behavior, and Moxie knows that quite well. From the Urban Dictionary:

Trolling – (verb), as it relates to internet, is the deliberate act, (by a Troll – noun or adjective), of making random unsolicited and/or controversial comments on various internet forums with the intent to provoke an emotional knee jerk reaction from unsuspecting readers to engage in a fight or argument

The bolded parts are basically the opposite of your behavior. What Moxie is calling trolling is specific related to tennis (in this discussion at least), yet more specifically regarding Nadal. I could bet my head that the last person she had in mind when she wrote her post was you.

Moxie said that "We all love good tennis or we wouldn't be here (with trollish exceptions)". I don't always give the impression I love tennis & don't always get the chance to watch therefore some people could assume that I don't love good tennis so as I'm here I'm a troll. I know what a troll is & I don't fit that definition but because I fitted into her statement with the behaviour I show I thought that that was the impression I gave out. I know I'm 1 of the least argumentative & confrontational people here about 99.99% of the time. O.K. I took it in a more general sense.

 

[Fiero425]

Moxie said that "We all love good tennis or we wouldn't be here (with trollish exceptions)". I don't always give the impression I love tennis & don't always get the chance to watch therefore some people could assume that I don't love good tennis so as I'm here I'm a troll. I know what a troll is & I don't fit that definition but because I fitted into her statement with the behaviour I show I thought that that was the impression I gave out. I know I'm 1 of the least argumentative & confrontational people here about 99.99% of the time. O.K. I took it in a more general sense.

I did what people do to me; put the person on ignore! I don't need to be beat up out here by her! Peeps want me here & have said so! :whistle:

 

[Horsa]

I did what people do to me; put the person on ignore! I don't need to be beat up out here by her! Peeps want me here & have said so! :whistle:

She hasn't said or done anything wrong to me. We're friends. I just had a little misunderstanding because of how things were said. That's all. We do indeed want you here. :0)

 

[Moxie]

She hasn't said or done anything wrong to me. We're friends. I just had a little misunderstanding because of how things were said. That's all. We do indeed want you here. :0)

Horsa, I see that you do know that I didn't mean you. All that Mrzz said is correct. I know you love tennis, or you wouldn't be here. There really aren't that many trolls around. I don't even mean "trolls" by people I disagree with. A "troll" is a specific thing, and you are not it.