AUSTRALIAN OPEN, Melbourne, ATP GRAND SLAM

brokenshoelace

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The fact that people try to switch the narratives cracks me up too. The initial conversation was about volleys, not serve and volley, but sometimes people want to be so right that the point gets lost in the "arguing." The fact that Federer considers himself an aggressive baseliner seals the deal for me, no matter how many stats people try to use, and then, only in the four majors although they play all year? Not convinced. That type of data would have to be all-inclusive, not cherry picked, IMO.

I hate to be aggressive to you because you are a chill, nice poster, but the above post is ridiculous. You do understand the concept of a sample, right? Masterclass brought forth a sample that involved literally every Grand Slam semi final and final match Roger played since 2003, and your response is it's not all inclusive? Well yeah, no shit, because all inclusive means the sample would have included literally every MATCH he's played for the past 14 years, which is absolutely insane (not to mention said data can't be found on the internet).

The data he brought is actually VERY convincing because top players will typically save their best for majors and employ the strategies they think will give them the best chance to win even more so than they would otherwise. So the numbers are very telling in that regard. Not to mention, the fact that the sample covers semis and finals means that most of the time, Roger's opponent was a very good player, so it's not like he was just playing against some scrubs and having a field day volleying.

You're being stubborn for the sake of it, which is all the more silly since you've refused to offer a single argument backing up your initial claim (while others have provided a ton), yet you're ridiculing every argument that others are raising, including comprehensive data that directly contradicts your narrative.
 
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brokenshoelace

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I'm probably late to the party on this but have they mentioned what has caused the conditions to be faster this year than before? New surface composition or lighter balls perhaps? If Roger meets Stan that might be a factor, Roger usually handles him on faster stuff but Stan is very tough for Roger to beat on slower surfaces.

I seriously think most of the time, nobody has any idea what they're talking about when it comes to surface speeds, causes of surface speed and such.

Marcus Baghdatis was actually complaining to the umpire that the surface was super slow against Nadal, while most players were saying the courts are playing faster (which I think they are).

Mats Wilander said the main reason is that the balls they're using have less "fluff" on them so the ball would appear smaller, hence the quicker conditions.
 

masterclass

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Very well said mr. zz (edit - and brokenshoelace). I'll add the below because I had coincidentally already written it up; it echos most of what you have said.

The net stats I've provided are more than sufficient for statistical analysis because I provided the most important complete subset of all available data. Every tournament's and match stats are not needed for such analysis. It is a more than valid statistical sample, not a "cherry picking" of data.

I've taken the time to provide all of the available stats for the most important tournaments and the most important rounds from the start of Federer's prime to now. That should be good enough for any reasonable person. Why? Knowledge, reason and logic apply.

1. Net stats are only consistently kept & saved for majors. If you don't know or believe that, someone can try finding them for all the minor tournaments and show them to all of us. And I won't engage in fruitless arguments whether his stats might be better or worse or even necessary to know for the minor tournaments. It would be a red herring fallacy and a total waste of time.

2. For much the same reason, earlier rounds in majors are usually against more inferior players, and if anything, the net stats would tend to be even higher. But again anyone is welcome to pull up the available stats to inform themselves and others. My guess is that those that express their "observational" statements won't do it because a. it is much easier to make unsubstantiated assertions, and b. they might suspect that their assertions will be proven to be more foolish than already shown.

3. I didn't present the net stats in any of the 12 losses Federer has had in majors post 2003 Wimbledon where he didn't reach the semi-finals. Why? I didn't need to, because even in the worst case, it would not cause an significant decrease in his overall net stats. However, if a reasonable person thinks it would be interesting to research and compile these, I'll consider it. I charge very little. ;)

Mr. zz's last point about net stats and volleys is well taken. But as he said, there is no official data available that analyzes the different types of net shots. Considering his game, I would guess that Federer has a healthy variety of half-volleys, normal volleys, swinging volleys, overheads, and a few ground stroke shots.

Respectfully,
masterclass
 
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Tennis Fan

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I hate to be aggressive to you because you are a chill, nice poster, but the above post is ridiculous. You do understand the concept of a sample, right? Masterclass brought a simple that involved literally every Grand Slam semi final and final match Roger played since 2003, and your response is it's not all inclusive? Well yeah, no shit, because all inclusive means the sample would have included literally every MATCH he's played for the past 14 years, which is absolutely insane (not to mention said data can't be found on the internet).

The data he brought is actually VERY convincing because top players will typically save their best for majors and employ the strategies they think will give them the best chance to win even more so than they would otherwise. So the numbers are very telling in that regard. Not to mention, the fact that the sample covers semis and finals means that most of the time, Roger's opponent was a very good player, so it's not like he was just playing against some scrubs and having a field day volleying.

You're being stubborn for the sake of it, which is all the more silly since you've refused to offer a single argument backing up your initial claim (while others have provided a ton), yet you're ridiculing every argument that others are raising, including comprehensive data that directly contradicts your narrative.

I think you're a nice, chill poster too, but I believe in what I say as I'm sure you do too, and everyone else who voices an opinion. The discussion was about volleying and it morphed into something totally different. I don't see why ya'll don't see that. You think it's convincing. I don't. I see it as a red herring that deviated from the original subject and turned it into a point that was never the nucleus of the discussion. It went all over the place and ended up nowhere because the original intent was obscured.

The sample makes no sense because the issue started out being that Roger had better volleys, not how many times he volleyed. That was never the topic of the discussion. It then went to accuracy and precision. Again, that has nothing to do with the sample.

I'm not being stubborn, but I also don't allow people to give me my opinion. Ever. I don't care if the entire world sees it differently. That's fine. I don't get mad about that, but how I feel is how I feel, and how you or anyone else takes it is on you, not me. Because in the scheme of the universe how many times Roger, Rafa, Novak or Andy volleys is infinitesimal, or in other words it doesn't amount to a hill of beans.

What I think is ridiculous is how people try to convince others to see things their way. When I state an opinion I'm not saying "I'm right, and you're wrong." So there's nothing to prove on my end. I believe that you have just reasons for feeling as you do. But here's the thing, I was talking to Carol not any of you guys because she and I tend to be on the same plane in many areas. I know that you all aren't, so to me it's rather silly to demand answers from you that I know in advance differ from my own. I also don't like or appreciate how it always turns into "ill-informed, ridiculous, stubborn, etc." I would never deign to tell you or anyone else who or what they are. I don't know you or anything about you to be that high-handed and arrogant, because that's what that comes off as to me. If you think Roger does this or that. That doesn't bother me. Why would I care about that? You're entitled to feel that way, and I'm entitled to not feel that way. It's that simple to me. People arguing about stuff that doesn't affect their life is ludicrous to me. I'll read your post and that's it. I don't feel a need to chastise you or anyone else about your opinion. Honestly, that is so stupid to me. I accept others opinions because it's based on them, their backgrounds and their experiences. Because of that we all have different opinions. I'm not trying to make anyone see it my way, and I'm not accepting your way when I feel differently.

That boggles my mind all the time on the internet, how people want to argue and debate AN OPINION. You can't debate an opinion, you can only debate facts and the fact of the matter is that we all have different opinions and opinions are neither right or wrong, they're simply how someone views the same situation.

But thank you for actually having a conversation and trying to understand where I'm coming from. Most people don't do that, they just barge in issuing directives as to what you need to do to fall in line with them. Understand, that I don't think the way that most people do. That's what I like most about myself. I'm an independent thinker with respect for everyone else opinions too.
 

Federberg

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^for the record, the original debate was NOT about volleying, but about Roger being the most complete player :). And ironically @brokenshoelace was the originator of it, as he made an observation about Federer. He's the last person in the world that should be told about why this debate started :lol6:
 

mrzz

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@Federberg, Lendl was a better at the net then Edberg. If you answer to that, I will take it as a personal offense.
 

Tennis Fan

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^for the record, the original debate was NOT about volleying, but about Roger being the most complete player :). And ironically @brokenshoelace was the originator of it, as he made an observation about Federer. He's the last person in the world that should be told about why this debate started :lol6:

That's what I responded to (volleys), so that's where my point originates from.
 

isabelle

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Roger v Stan... that might be a piece of dynamite.
I can't wait to hear awful Mirka yell at Stan to make him derail...hope to see a good match with some fairplay from both parst including player's boxes....please Mirka SHUT UP and let the sport do the talking
 
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britbox

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Results from the Australian Open Men's Singles Quarterfinal matches on Tuesday

17-Roger Federer (Switzerland) beat Mischa Zverev (Germany) 6-1 7-5 6-2
4-Stanislas Wawrinka (Switzerland) beat 12-Jo-Wilfried Tsonga (France) 7-6(2) 6-4 6-3
 

britbox

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Order of Play - Wednesday
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