2025 ATP General News

[MargaretMcAleer]

ATP500 Doha Update:
, Monfils has withdrawn today
IN: Marozsan

The draw ceremony will take place on Saturday 15 February at 12pm local time

 

[don_fabio]

Navone showed a lot of class. Twice Rune went for a body shot from close range (and with all the power he could muster), not only Navone won both points, but he never came close to complaining (I would have gone for a fist fight right away), as Rune not even considered apologizing. At the hand shake Navone was all smiles. Zero grudge. Kudos to him.

Indeed. Navone kept his cool and didn't let those low punches throw his game off. I'm even surprised how calm he was, because the shots were nasty, right at the body with full power.

 

[don_fabio]

I haven’t yet written him off but he’s become forgettable, which is the stage before I write him off…

We keep waiting for Rune to do something big, but he can't even become a reliable player to go far in the tournaments. He had a few good runs here and there since 2022, but he doesn't look like he developed as a player at all. I mean I like his game, but it's still messy. He is struggling to put it all together, lot's of ups and downs during the match. Player like him need to be able to beat lower quality opponents even on the bad day. Not to take anything away from Navone who played great yesterday.

 

[El Dude]

Rune is looking like he's following the Tomas Berdych career path. If you remember, Berdych also had an early Masters win. It turned out to be a bit flukish, and he spent the next few years waffling around the top 10-20 range, before taking a step forward around age 24-25 and was a fixture in the top 10 for the next seven years. He never won another big title, but was an overall better player and a regular in the second week at Slams.

I think that would be a huge disappointment for Rune, but he might be following a slightly better version of that path.

 

[mrzz]

Rune is looking like he's following the Tomas Berdych career path. If you remember, Berdych also had an early Masters win. It turned out to be a bit flukish, and he spent the next few years waffling around the top 10-20 range, before taking a step forward around age 24-25 and was a fixture in the top 10 for the next seven years. He never won another big title, but was an overall better player and a regular in the second week at Slams.

I think that would be a huge disappointment for Rune, but he might be following a slightly better version of that path.

As much as I hated Rune attitude in his match yesterday (I haven't seen him play in a big while), I still think he does have some fundamental traits of a great player. Maybe all he needs is a really really hard line head coach, but you guys probably already beat this argument to death.

 

[MargaretMcAleer]

We keep waiting for Rune to do something big, but he can't even become a reliable player to go far in the tournaments. He had a few good runs here and there since 2022, but he doesn't look like he developed as a player at all. I mean I like his game, but it's still messy. He is struggling to put it all together, lot's of ups and downs during the match. Player like him need to be able to beat lower quality opponents even on the bad day. Not to take anything away from Navone who played great yesterday.

Don,
Rune shot selection is all over the place, the sad point being it has not improved, agree his game is still messy, we have all seen 'when his game clicks' his game translates to all surfaces, presently that is not happening, to me he has to go back to the basics with his shot selection.I still hope he can turn things around, he is young and does have time.

 

[Jelenafan]

As much as I hated Rune attitude in his match yesterday (I haven't seen him play in a big while), I still think he does have some fundamental traits of a great player. Maybe all he needs is a really really hard line head coach, but you guys probably already beat this argument to death.

I do think Rune’s coaching/direction has been muddled the last couple of years, and an upcoming 22 is not the end of the world.

However, its ultimately up to the player how badly he wants it, and most importantly, how much he works for it.

Little Holger’s net play, groundies & court coverage has flashes still of OMG brilliance but unless channeled with self discipline he can be just another Kyrgios or Shapo, ie occasionally brilliant.

But just as some haven't given up on 24 1/2 year old Felix AA , i havent given up on little Holger yet.

Funny how ironically both players seem 180 degrees apart in attitude (they seem total opposites) yet struggle with the mental strength needed to get to the very top.

 

[El Dude]

I think the whole notion of "giving up" on players is a bit...misplaced? "Giving up" usually implies some sort of specific expectation, and we tend to have this view that if a young player doesn't become an elite, they're a failure.

Rune and FAA and, I would say to a lesser degree, Shapo all exhibited elite potential, so the sense of disappointment is understandable. But...FAA has had a pretty solid career so far, Rune won a Masters and worst-case scenario, will win more titles and flirt with the top 10 (and maybe more). Shapo just won an ATP 500. These aren't elite players (yet), but they've all been in the top 10-20 for most of their primes, which makes them still better than the vast majority of players. I mean, in 67 years of the Open Era, only 58 men have won a Grand Slam, only 32 have won multiple Grand Slams. I think it is important to keep that in mind.

 

[mrzz]

I do think Rune’s coaching/direction has been muddled the last couple of years, and an upcoming 22 is not the end of the world.

However, its ultimately up to the player how badly he wants it, and most importantly, how much he works for it.

Little Holger’s net play, groundies & court coverage has flashes still of OMG brilliance but unless channeled with self discipline he can be just another Kyrgios or Shapo, ie occasionally brilliant.

But just as some haven't given up on 24 1/2 year old Felix AA , i havent given up on little Holger yet.

Funny how ironically both players seem 180 degrees apart in attitude (they seem total opposites) yet struggle with the mental strength needed to get to the very top.

Completely agreed. I just would never put Kyrgios together with that group. Apart from that were are on the same page.

 

[mrzz]

I think the whole notion of "giving up" on players is a bit...misplaced? "Giving up" usually implies some sort of specific expectation, and we tend to have this view that if a young player doesn't become an elite, they're a failure.

Rune and FAA and, I would say to a lesser degree, Shapo all exhibited elite potential, so the sense of disappointment is understandable. But...FAA has had a pretty solid career so far, Rune won a Masters and worst-case scenario, will win more titles and flirt with the top 10 (and maybe more). Shapo just won an ATP 500. These aren't elite players (yet), but they've all been in the top 10-20 for most of their primes, which makes them still better than the vast majority of players. I mean, in 67 years of the Open Era, only 58 men have won a Grand Slam, only 32 have won multiple Grand Slams. I think it is important to keep that in mind.

I think we generally expect a player to fly higher than the height he is currently on, so we are always hoping for something more. I guess that it was exactly this sense that @Jelenafan used the expression, but I'll be corrected if wrong.

 

[El Dude]

I think we generally expect a player to fly higher than the height he is currently on, so we are always hoping for something more. I guess that it was exactly this sense that @Jelenafan used the expression, but I'll be corrected if wrong.

With Rune it was specific: He went on a crazy tear in late 2022, winning a Masters at age 19 - something only future elites generally do. But that was pretty much it. Or rather, at best, he's stagnated since.

WIth FAA, he was the youngest guy on the radar for a bit there - entering the top 100 at 18 years old and the top 20 shortly after turning 19. That would be like Mensik or Tien being in the top 20 right now (they both could be there later this year). Concerns arose in 2020, when he didn't really step forward (finishing #21 for the second year in a row), but it was 2020. He improved in 2021 (#11) and again in 2022 (#6), though it wasn't quite as stratospheric as hoped, and he still has not yet won a big title. he fell back in 2023 and 24 and, if Rune is on the Berdych path, FAA might be more of a Gasquet (in terms of career trajectory). But even FAA is young enough that he could still take a bit step forward, and at least return to his 2021-22 level. Maybe.

 

[MargaretMcAleer]

Lorenso Musetti withdrew from Buenos Aires with a calf injury, after tests he was diagnosed with a soleus injury, might not be able to play in Rio
Meanwhile Pedro Martinez advances to the SFs ( he made the QFs in Rotterdam last week)

 

[Jelenafan]

With Rune it was specific: He went on a crazy tear in late 2022, winning a Masters at age 19 - something only future elites generally do. But that was pretty much it. Or rather, at best, he's stagnated since.

WIth FAA, he was the youngest guy on the radar for a bit there - entering the top 100 at 18 years old and the top 20 shortly after turning 19. That would be like Mensik or Tien being in the top 20 right now (they both could be there later this year). Concerns arose in 2020, when he didn't really step forward (finishing #21 for the second year in a row), but it was 2020. He improved in 2021 (#11) and again in 2022 (#6), though it wasn't quite as stratospheric as hoped, and he still has not yet won a big title. he fell back in 2023 and 24 and, if Rune is on the Berdych path, FAA might be more of a Gasquet (in terms of career trajectory). But even FAA is young enough that he could still take a bit step forward, and at least return to his 2021-22 level. Maybe.

Little Holger not only won the Masters at age 19 beating 4 top 20 players in a row, but he made the finals of 2 more Masters within 6 months and reached #4 in the rankings, as well as one point having beaten Alcaraz, Sinner, Zverev, Djokovic, etc , i.e. he actually had a great head2head record against top 20 players. Again, at one point early on he had beaten every top 10 player but Casper Rudd, the evil Norwegian. The buzz on him was legitimate and so yes, the expectations were quite high.

I know the Berdych comparisons refers in a general sense to early results /potential versus career results (IIRC Nadal detractors touted him the "Nadal killer") , but Berdych had very visible flaws from the get go, as primarily an offensive player his defense, return of serve and footwork was always suspect.

To me, Rune and FAA are more well rounded players with no exceptional glaring faults, (both their groundies and returns of serves are so solid, good instinctive net play, exceptional court coverage, touch, etc) who seem to have it all. but lack some inner mental fortitude to get to the very top. Certainly not a crime relative to the 250 players who plays tournaments on the circuit.

Dimitrov is a comparison I like, beautiful game on paper and on court, he's had a great consistent top 20 career , not quite top shelf elite, but always dangerous and so I think of him when looking at Rune and FAA.

 

[mrzz]

When I was about to write that Navone won the first set 6x1, Fonseca stole the game and got one break back.

Then he fell 0-30 in his next service game, I was about write he was lethargic, he fired 4 aces in a row.

But the forehand is erratic...

 

[El Dude]

Little Holger not only won the Masters at age 19 beating 4 top 20 players in a row, but he made the finals of 2 more Masters within 6 months and reached #4 in the rankings, as well as one point having beaten Alcaraz, Sinner, Zverev, Djokovic, etc , i.e. he actually had a great head2head record against top 20 players. Again, at one point early on he had beaten every top 10 player but Casper Rudd, the evil Norwegian. The buzz on him was legitimate and so yes, the expectations were quite high.

I know the Berdych comparisons refers in a general sense to early results /potential versus career results (IIRC Nadal detractors touted him the "Nadal killer") , but Berdych had very visible flaws from the get go, as primarily an offensive player his defense, return of serve and footwork was always suspect.

To me, Rune and FAA are more well rounded players with no exceptional glaring faults, (both their groundies and returns of serves are so solid, good instinctive net play, exceptional court coverage, touch, etc) who seem to have it all. but lack some inner mental fortitude to get to the very top. Certainly not a crime relative to the 250 players who plays tournaments on the circuit.

Dimitrov is a comparison I like, beautiful game on paper and on court, he's had a great consistent top 20 career , not quite top shelf elite, but always dangerous and so I think of him when looking at Rune and FAA.

I hear all that - and agree with everything you wrote. And yes, I think the mental part is huge - so there is a sense that both "should" be better than what they've shown so far. But mentality is a huge part of the sport in general, and one of the dividing factors between true greats and "almost greats" is mentality. Perhaps the most striking example is Safin/Nalbandian vs. Federer. All things told, I do think that Federer was a more talented player than both, but not by the same gap as their respective results. Meaning, Roger > Safin > Nalbandian, but not as huge an amount as their Slam titles entail (20, 2, 0). For Safin and Nalbandian, the mental game was...lacking.

I've said before that I think FAA's main problem is that he lacks a killer instinct...he's too nice. He's got some deficits in his game, but for me the biggest is that will to win, to destroy his opponent. For Rune, not quite sure, but it might be similar to Shapo: both seem to want to play like they're Alcaraz and every shot can be an amazing display of raw talent. Alcaraz, I think, is special in that way: he's so ridiculously gifted that he can play in a way that no one else can get away with (plus, he's got impressive skills). For Alcaraz, I think we've seen him max out without further refinement; meaning, if he's going to take it to the next level, it is more a matter of fine-tuning. Maybe the same is true of Rune, but he's even rawer (and somewhat less talented).

My worry about Rune is that he just doesn't seem to have made any progress the last two plus years. Sure, he basically held his level for much of 2023, but then seemed to wobble and fall back in 2024. Meaning, I'd be a lot more optimistic about him if we were back where he was a year plus ago, but he's lost ground (imo). Not "writing him off," just less confident in his upside.

 

[MargaretMcAleer]

When I was about to write that Navone won the first set 6x1, Fonseca stole the game and got one break back.

Then he fell 0-30 in his next service game, I was about write he was lethargic, he fired 4 aces in a row.

But the forehand is erratic...

I just tuned into the match, Fonseca had a BP to get back on serve, I feel he pushed his shot, too many UFE cost him

 

[El Dude]

I think we generally expect a player to fly higher than the height he is currently on, so we are always hoping for something more. I guess that it was exactly this sense that @Jelenafan used the expression, but I'll be corrected if wrong.

A further thought on this. While every player is different, I think there's something to the idea that players tend to reach their absolute peak level around age 24-25. Some before, some after, but it is very rare that a player gets significantly better than he was at age 25; I don't know the exactly number, but probably something like 90% of players reach peak level by 25. Stan is obviously the biggest outlier, at least in recent decades.

So the closer a player gets to 24-25, the less likely that they'll "fly higher." FAA turns 25 in August, so he's entering that zone where if he becomes better, he'll be an outlier to what is true of 90% of players. Rune obviously has more time, but there's a big difference between 22 and 20, a timeframe in which he's slid back.

 

[mrzz]

After saving 3 break points Navone finally seals the set. Poor showing from Fonseca who is missing from all wings.

 

[don_fabio]

After saving 3 break points Navone finally seals the set. Poor showing from Fonseca who is missing from all wings.

It's been a crazy match so far. So many twists, rain...and the atmosphere is crazy, football like. We need a 5th slam in South America (on clay of course).

 

[mrzz]

By far the worst match from Fonseca I've seen, but somehow he hangs in there and wins the second (got lucky in the set point, but the opposite had happened a game earlier). This last game was his best game of the match.