2024 Internazionali BNL d'Italia, Rome, Italy - Masters 1000

[MargaretMcAleer]

Defending champ Medvedev d Medjedovic in a 3 set win 76(5) 26 75

 

[El Dude]

Sports is weird. Some things are so obvious to any reasonably intelligent fan, yet the players (or teams) don't seem able to see it. I mean, isn't anyone on Holger's team telling him what he needs to work on? Shouldn't it be obvious to Holger by now? Is he really that much of an entitled, stubborn brat? I'm not talking about armchair quarterbacking - the moment to moment plays are hard to really judge, because we're not on the field or court. But the overall picture of someone like Holger is pretty clear. He has the talent to be right up there with Alcaraz and Sinner, but his temperament makes a Zverev path more likely (and maybe not even that).

I also think there is a generational factor. People have been taking longer to mature since my own Gen X - and it has only gotten worse with Millenials and Gen Z -- especially recently for the younger kids, with the impact of the last four years (covid, or rather the lockdown measures, really damaged kids). Maybe tennis and other sports has a bit of lag time, because the traditions of training would work against the cultural trends a bit. So maybe someone like Rune, at 21 years old, is about where Novak and Roger were at 19 (psychologically), where Sampras was at around 17, or where Borg was at 15.

Or it may simply be that there are always head-cases in every generation, and not every super-talented player actualizes their talent. We can compare and contrast Roger with his probably most talented peers, Safin and Nalbandian - both of whom had at least lesser ATG talent. Roger took awhile to come fully into form - and that was probably partially due to the complexity of his game, but also his emotions. Mr Ice King, Bjorn Borg, was a head-case until maybe his mid-teens, known for terrible tantrums in practice. And of course there's guys like Connors and McEnroe who fed on their emotions. Meaning, there are three ways to deal with intense emotion on court: indulge them, keep them locked up/calm them, and channel them. Two work, one doesn't.

 

[mrzz]

^^all true regarding Rune but Baez is a little demon that runs like crazy and hits pretty hard almost every freaking ball he can get to. Gives absolutelly nothing for free.

 

[El Dude]

^^all true regarding Rune but Baez is a little demon that runs like crazy and hits pretty hard almost every freaking ball he can get to. Gives absolutelly nothing for free.

Yep, I saw that. I like him - he's a fun player to watch, and I admire his approach. Reminds me a bit of Ferrer, in that regard. And that sort of player would be problematic for Holger.

I was just wondering how Holger would match-up vs. someone like Tsitsipas, and was surprised to see that they've played three times, and Holger has won all three matches, though one was Stefanos retiring, and the other two were in Holger's surge in 2022. But I think someone like Tsitsipas would be easier for him than Baez.

 

[El Dude]

A bit more on Holger. He was basically been rather disappointing for the last year and a half, since that great surge in late 2022 that culminated in his first Masters in Paris. To be fair, 2023 was very good too, he just didn't win any big titles. But he reached two Slam QFs and two Masters finals - a well-deserved top 10 finish. But at the end of 2022, it looked like he was about to go supernova on the tour.

Players often improve in steps, with a rise to a new level and then a consolidation period. A classic example is Rafa in 2005-07, before he took a big step forward in 2008. Or Sampras in 1990-92, before stepping up in 93. In both their cases, the first of the three years was overall the best, but the next two "filled in the gaps" a bit, even if not as flashy. Roger was a bit different, in that his rise was more gradual and then that crazy peak from 2004-07. But in a way, he had a similar consolidation to Holger in 2001-02 as Holger had in 2022-23.

And then there's Novak. He jumped to elite level in 2007, reaching #3 on two Masters titles SF or F runs at three Slams, then took another step up in 2008 by winning the AO and the Tour Finals, seemingly poised to challenge Roger and Rafa for the crown. But then he slipped and skidded for two years, with 2009-10 being closer to 2007 than 2008. Holger has yet to be as good as Novak was in 2007, but he might be going through a similar "flailing." It is almost like that surge in 2022 had a detrimental effect: he thought he could just keep bashing and overwhelming everyone, but the tour figured him out and realized that a bit of resistance would inevitably see him mentally fold. So he hasn't adjust to that yet. If he does, look out.

 

[El Dude]

Not to fill up this thread with endless text, but another point of comparison is Tomas Berdych, who won his first and only Masters shortly after turning 21. Berdych finished that year (2005) at #24 but didn't break into the top 10 until 2010, at least as a regular denizen (he dipped into the top 10 several times, in 2006, 07, and 08). By 2010, Berdych had matured and began his best period, being a fixture in the top 10--and the second week of Slam action--through 2016. But he never won another big title.

I think Rune is more talented than Berdych, and both has a higher upside and doesn't play alongside the prime years of three GOATs. So chances are his next few years will be better than Berdych, post-Masters title. But it might take a bit for him to mature, to reach his prime level.

 

[rafanoy1992]

The thing with Rune right now is that it doesn’t seem like there’s any improvements on his game. Physically, he looks stronger but he still having cramps once in a while. Mentally, he really is an enigma. He is clutch in TBs and he can scrap his way out of tight situations. However, he could easily lose focus quickly.

And yes, he is only 21 years old (same as Alcaraz) but he needs to show something consistently and not just on pure talent alone.

I remembered in this forum in which poster(s) were raving about Rune over Sinner because Rune seems like he has the “it” factor and he is younger than Sinner. Well, now is the time for Rune to actually show something rather than hoping for potential or talent to burst out fully.

 

[kskate2]

Sports is weird. Some things are so obvious to any reasonably intelligent fan, yet the players (or teams) don't seem able to see it. I mean, isn't anyone on Holger's team telling him what he needs to work on? Shouldn't it be obvious to Holger by now? Is he really that much of an entitled, stubborn brat? I'm not talking about armchair quarterbacking - the moment to moment plays are hard to really judge, because we're not on the field or court. But the overall picture of someone like Holger is pretty clear. He has the talent to be right up there with Alcaraz and Sinner, but his temperament makes a Zverev path more likely (and maybe not even that).

I also think there is a generational factor. People have been taking longer to mature since my own Gen X - and it has only gotten worse with Millenials and Gen Z -- especially recently for the younger kids, with the impact of the last four years (covid, or rather the lockdown measures, really damaged kids). Maybe tennis and other sports has a bit of lag time, because the traditions of training would work against the cultural trends a bit. So maybe someone like Rune, at 21 years old, is about where Novak and Roger were at 19 (psychologically), where Sampras was at around 17, or where Borg was at 15.

Or it may simply be that there are always head-cases in every generation, and not every super-talented player actualizes their talent. We can compare and contrast Roger with his probably most talented peers, Safin and Nalbandian - both of whom had at least lesser ATG talent. Roger took awhile to come fully into form - and that was probably partially due to the complexity of his game, but also his emotions. Mr Ice King, Bjorn Borg, was a head-case until maybe his mid-teens, known for terrible tantrums in practice. And of course there's guys like Connors and McEnroe who fed on their emotions. Meaning, there are three ways to deal with intense emotion on court: indulge them, keep them locked up/calm them, and channel them. Two work, one doesn't.

Holger's primary issue is he wants to boss the points (all the time). Nothing really wrong w/ that mentality. Where he goes wrong is thinking smokin the fuzz off the ball is the only way to boss. There are multiple ways to be in control and they're not all centered around the ball's rpm's. As to his team, Patrick may be a lot of things, but a bad coach or strategist is not one of them. We have no idea what the coaches are telling him vs what he's actually deciding to execute out there. This could be the very reason why he's gone through so many coaches lately.

 

[the AntiPusher]

Sports is weird. Some things are so obvious to any reasonably intelligent fan, yet the players (or teams) don't seem able to see it. I mean, isn't anyone on Holger's team telling him what he needs to work on? Shouldn't it be obvious to Holger by now? Is he really that much of an entitled, stubborn brat? I'm not talking about armchair quarterbacking - the moment to moment plays are hard to really judge, because we're not on the field or court. But the overall picture of someone like Holger is pretty clear. He has the talent to be right up there with Alcaraz and Sinner, but his temperament makes a Zverev path more likely (and maybe not even that).

I also think there is a generational factor. People have been taking longer to mature since my own Gen X - and it has only gotten worse with Millenials and Gen Z -- especially recently for the younger kids, with the impact of the last four years (covid, or rather the lockdown measures, really damaged kids). Maybe tennis and other sports has a bit of lag time, because the traditions of training would work against the cultural trends a bit. So maybe someone like Rune, at 21 years old, is about where Novak and Roger were at 19 (psychologically), where Sampras was at around 17, or where Borg was at 15.

Or it may simply be that there are always head-cases in every generation, and not every super-talented player actualizes their talent. We can compare and contrast Roger with his probably most talented peers, Safin and Nalbandian - both of whom had at least lesser ATG talent. Roger took awhile to come fully into form - and that was probably partially due to the complexity of his game, but also his emotions. Mr Ice King, Bjorn Borg, was a head-case until maybe his mid-teens, known for terrible tantrums in practice. And of course there's guys like Connors and McEnroe who fed on their emotions. Meaning, there are three ways to deal with intense emotion on court: indulge them, keep them locked up/calm them, and channel them. Two work, one doesn't.

Looking at this can We assume that Rafa was very mature at 13 or 14 since you failed to mention the last super teenager before Alvarez.. actually Rafa's reign as the last of the super teenager was longer than anyone in recent ATP history including Borg and Mcenroe's before Becker..( his name should have been included also). Just my two cents worth

 

[kskate2]

MM, did you see what Meddy wrote on the camera lens about his opponent? LOL.

He wrote way too aggressive.

 

[MargaretMcAleer]

MM, did you see what Meddy wrote on the camera lens about his opponent? LOL.

He wrote way too aggressive.

Thats our Meddy

 

[kskate2]

Thats our Meddy

This from the guy who returns from the hot dog stand

 

[mrzz]

Yep, I saw that. I like him - he's a fun player to watch, and I admire his approach. Reminds me a bit of Ferrer, in that regard. And that sort of player would be problematic for Holger.

Hmmm... it makes all the sense in the world on paper, but for some reason it sounds a bit strange to me. I think that Baez is faster, and hits a little harder. But Ferrer had a bit more stamina and for sure was way more consistent. Also, Ferrer knew how to adapt to hard courts, something Baez still struggles a bit.

 

[El Dude]

Holger's primary issue is he wants to boss the points (all the time). Nothing really wrong w/ that mentality. Where he goes wrong is thinking smokin the fuzz off the ball is the only way to boss. There are multiple ways to be in control and they're not all centered around the ball's rpm's. As to his team, Patrick may be a lot of things, but a bad coach or strategist is not one of them. We have no idea what the coaches are telling him vs what he's actually deciding to execute out there. This could be the very reason why he's gone through so many coaches lately.

Yeah, I agree with this. It is almost like he's thinking, "I'm the GOAT! Why isn't this working?!" Maybe not the GOAT, but he seems to be frustrated that he's not just automatically succeeding.

 

[El Dude]

Looking at this can We assume that Rafa was very mature at 13 or 14 since you failed to mention the last super teenager before Alvarez.. actually Rafa's reign as the last of the super teenager was longer than anyone in recent ATP history including Borg and Mcenroe's before Becker..( his name should have been included also). Just my two cents worth

I didn't mention Rafa because to me he stands alone, in terms of mental focus, fortitude, and maturity. I don't ever remember him beating himself out there or losing his cool, at least not in a lasting way that greatly diminished his level. I'm sure there have been times, but it doesn't stick in my mind - not like Roger or Novak. I remember him getting frustrated or happy winning a point, but he always seemed able to re-center himself after every point. Novak and Roger too, but not to the same degree.

Meaning, Rafa never seemed to beat himself--or at least less than any player I can think of, or in a way that is evident (to me). It is quite extraordinary, really, and one way he stands above everyone else.

It may be related to the humility he exhibits - unlike Roger and Novak, he never seemed to assume he'd win. I'm not saying he didn't have confidence, but rather arrogance. I think it is partially innate/upbringing, but also partially due to his first few years playing second fiddle to Roger. He never really seemed to act differently than a guy who had to pass someone else. Maybe that's partially why he never stayed at #1 for very long (relative to the other two). He almost seemed to prefer being #2 so he could fight for the top. He's the Rocky of tennis! Haha.

 

[kskate2]

Order of Play, Tuesday, May 14, 2024

 

[Moxie]

Tabilo backed up his win over Novak with a win over Khachanov. Long 2nd set TB. Fritz d Dimitrov also had a long one.

 

[kskate2]

All the top seeds are folding like tents. Meddy gone, Holger gone, Hair Dude gone. Taylor, Zed, Tits and Hubi are the only ones left in the draw who own a M1000.

 

[Fiero425]

All the top seeds are folding like tents. Meddy gone, Holger gone, Hair Dude gone. Taylor, Zed, Tits and Hubi are the only ones left in the draw who own a M1000.

Is this the beginning of the end and a true changing of the guard? I think it started last year even w/ the abboration of Dokovic winning 3 of 4 majors, a couple more Masters, & a 7th YEC even w/ a limited schedule! The competition is a lot better, but the speed of the game is breaking them down so we're seeing a ton of injuries & players WD's due to exhaustion! I actually saw the title of a vid asking "will Djokovic retire after the Olympics?" Nadal might, but I think Novak will finish out the season even though less motivated! He's just hasn't been in it for the entire season, lucky to make AO SF & MC SF! Tabilo beat him in Rome; no doubt about it, but something's up! Novak wasn't pacing himself, DF'd several times including MP, & overdid the dropshots! I'll be fine if both leave the tour, but can't say how much I'll be watching the game w/ the Next-Gen out there just whacking away at the ball w/ little to no strategy!

 

[MargaretMcAleer]

Kskate,

Maybe Stef's earlier statement of winning a Rome title is going to happen, I must say he does look the goods right now and also Taylor Fritz has been playing good tennis in this tournament to date
If Stef does win Rome he has to be a favorite going into RG this year ( or make the final at Rome ), it is to date his best surface.Also he signed " Great and Happy Strokes' on the camera after his win today.